| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 258 Registered: 8-2004 |
http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92 A link to this article came to my inbox today. The Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement segment of the stream of Adventism will probably be very interested to see this, and may wonder if an apology for kicking them out for refusing to join the Nazi military buildup is forthcoming too! I wonder if it is? I wonder if it will make any difference to them? | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2005 |
Helovesme2: I pray it will make a difference. Patria | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 458 Registered: 4-2000  |
The SDA Reform Movement stems from World War I when they refused military conscription in Europe (notably the bearing of arms), but the official SDA Church did not take a stand on this issue. Therefore, their split has to do with military conscription. The bearing of arms in military service is still not a test of fellowship in Adventism. However, during the Civil War, Adventists were strongly and officially against the bearing of arms. Regarding their apology to the Jewish community, the Seventh-day Adventist Church did not admit alot of irregularities and/or atrosities in the latest press release. They didn't mention that the SDA Church actually used their printing presses for Nazi propaganda, wrote negative things about the Jews in German SDA publications, deleted the word "Sabbath" in their Sabbath Schools, attended public school on Sabbath, blended their welfare services with the Nazi regime, sent a SDA spokeswoman to the USA to promote Hitler's Reich prior to the invasion of Poland, conspired in making the Reform SDA Movement illegal, and drove them underground and penniless. Also, SDAs refused to give any welfare services to SDA Reformers and influenced the German government to do the same. Official Adventism had the Hitler regime classify the SDA Reform Movement as a cult. Being that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, Seventh-day Adventists felt that they had an important commonality with him. It is safe to say that countless Jews and others lost their lives in part to the criminal behavior of the German SDA Church during World War II. Most Adventists today have no knowledge of how intensely their church was involved with Hitler's Third Reich. For awhile, Hitler even allowed SDAs to study the Bible in public school on Saturdays. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 267 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Yes, that's a pretty accurate description of what I was referring to in why I wonder if the SDA church will apologize to the SDA Reform Movement. The SDA Reform Movement did not organize as a separate organization till 1925. They kept hoping the SDA church would change its position on military service, apologize to the 'separated brethren', and welcome them back as part of one church. It didn't happen. I really wonder if it's even possible for them to reunite now after so much time has passed and so much pride of place has built up on both sides (more accurately on all three sides now. The Reform Movement split into two separate organizations again in the 50's). | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2005 |
In reading the above posts, I wonder if the SDA church will ever become multi-cultural. The African American churches have been separated since 1955, under the guise of Black pastors wanting a better voice, pay, etc. I worked in archives at Oakwood and was astounded that the churches actually thought this was a good idea. So much for love, huh? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2004 |
If I recall correctly, EGW actually recommended the separation of Black and White, with the white working for the whites, and the black working for the blacks, with the exception that whites could teach the blacks but not the other way around. Hmm. Let me look it up: Yes, here are a few examples, "Medical missions should be opened as pioneer agencies to prepare the way for the proclamation of the third angel's message in the cities of the South. . . . Industries can be started both in and out of the cities. There should be schools for the education of the colored people, as well as schools for the whites. In all these institutions, the white people should work for the whites, and the colored people for their own race. It may be found advisable for experienced white laborers to train those of our colored brethren and sisters who desire to work for their own people.--Ms 24, 1891, pp. 15, 16. (Diary, January 1-30, 1891.)" {4MR 1.3} "Instead of wondering whether they are not fitted to labor for white people, let our colored brethren and sisters devote themselves to missionary work among the colored people. There is an abundance of room for intelligent colored men and women to labor for their own people." {9T 199.2} So it seems that those who advocated for the division had precident in EGW. Yes Taybe, as you say, so much for love! Mary | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2003  |
I'm not here to defend either the SDA church or EGW. (In fact I "lost" 95% of my EGW books this past year) I believe if you look back at the history of the south during these years you will find very few churches that were not segregated. This includes many of the churches which many of the posters on this board are now attending. There are plenty of very valid and disturbing things about EGW that are of greater inport and reason for concern. Let's keep the "main thing the main thing". Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1929 Registered: 11-2002 |
I read the article Helovesme put the link to. I think it is good that the SDA church finily issued an apology. As we all know it is preferable that individuals and institutations behave in a way that appologies won't be needed. However, peopl;e being fallen and sel-centered beings are going to make poor decisions and the result is hopefully that they will see the sorrow that was caused from poor decisions and offer an apology. So, kodos to the SDA church for the apology. Recently a representive from a Southeran California chapter of Jews For Jesus gave the service at the Lutheran church I attend. He said that all Jews during the Holocast years in Germany knew many of the guards and many of those doing the worst things to the Jews were Lutherans, that Hitler and his gang knew the Lutherans were good workers and did as they were told. He grew up hating Lutherans and fearing Lutherans. Now he's a Chrisatian and he realizes people sometimes do very bad things and whoa! here he is in a Lutheran church One In Christ proclaiming the gosple with and to the Lutherans. And, I hope the SDA apology is sincere and that the Jews accept it for what it is, a heartfelt apology. | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2005 |
Richard, I was actually going to take offense to your defense of my statements about segregation. I will not, but I will say this...Regardless of the year or whatever else was going on...the love was not (in my opinion STILL is not) shown in the SDA church thru the example of segregation. That is the MAIN THING I was referring to. I cannot look at other churches, I was not a Presbyterian or Penecostal...I was a Seventh Day Adventist. And I believe that segregation was never a form of love. God, be blessed, be loved, be lifted high, be treasured here, be glorified! Shontay (Message edited by Taybie on September 22, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2592 Registered: 12-2003  |
I think the problem with Ellen endorsing segretation is not that she was a product of her time but that she claimed to be God's mouthpiece. Had she merely been a "normal" lay person, we could "excuse" her as a (perhaps weak) sister who had been shaped by her culture. In fact, however, she was not from the South-she was from New England--the North to which the underground railroad fed the escaping slaves. In addition, the church accepted her words as from God. Therein lies the real heinousness of her "counsel". Her statements were completely opposed to the gospel and Paul's clear statement that in Christ there is no male nor female, Jew nor Greek. Had she merely been JN Anderews of John Loughborough or Joseph Bates, we might write off her statements as cultural. As God's supposed messenger, however, they are heinous. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 976 Registered: 10-2004  |
Mary, thanks for those quotes--I don't think I had seen them before. Maybe I should add them to my EGW bigotry document. I agree with Colleen that these statements by EGW are inexcusable especially considering the fact that she claimed her writings were inspired by God, but she even wrote things that are totally racist and unChristian by any standard! I am angered when I read Uriah Smith's "defense" of Ellen, where he claims that certain races are part animal! Richard, loving your neighbor and loving the brethren is the "main thing"! And EGW failed miserably with this and even wrote things that proved she did not love the brethren and that she was not a Christian. EGW did in one place say that the "colored people" should not be "excluded from the gatherings of the white people." But she also wrote very racist things. Here are a few short samples:
To see the references and context of these quotes and to see various other quotes, check out the following web page of mine: Ellen White's "Inspired" Bigotry, Racism, and Discrimination! (Warning: only read the above site if you don't mind getting angry!) Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1932 Registered: 11-2002 |
Shontay, What area of the United States are you from? I grew up in a way far-out rural area. The SDA church I attended a lot growing up was hicks, country folks, farmers and other assorted country people. I am white. My best friend who also went to that particular SDA church was black. Her grandparents and my parents were best friends. We all went to the same local public high school. There were also several Mexican families who attended that little church. So, I never grew up thinking of the SDA denomination as segreated. In fact, I know many interracial couples who are SDA.I have always heard that the denomination is segreated and there is overt pregidise in it but I have not observed that in my expereience. I guess in that way I was fortunate. I did notice though when the country SDA's would attend church in the large city SDA church the city people tended to really look down on the country folks, didn't matter their race or ethnicity, it was because they were country. One time when I was around 17 I overheard some snooty city SDA's talking about the country SDA's saying it was too bad they had to be farmers/ranchers because everyone knows that country people still have to tend to their livestock and their crops over the Sabbath. I just remember wondering why it was o.k. for a SDA doctor or SDA nurse to work on Sabbath but not a SDA farmer, expecially since EGW said folks should live in the country and the mountains and be as self-efficiant as possible. BTW, I sure do miss my friend. She passed away suddenly around 14 years ago from a bad reaction to some medicine. The small SDA church in my community is very racially mixed. However, the SDA church I attended in Puna several years ago was very segreated. The story I got was that the various ethnic and racial groups all hated each other. So the Japanese and the whites left to go to a SDA church in a nearby city. The Somoians started their own church and their was only one white couple who stayed at the local church and one black/white couple who stayed there. The rest are all Hawaiian. People are just people and all are fallen and have their undesirable qualities. However, I will say I only attended that church once and I will never go back. It was very apparent as soon as the congreation saw me and my sons that we were not wanted there. If looks could kill we would have been gonners right fast. It was a real sad church to be in. Most of the adults were illerate but they totally knew they had the truth and everyone else was lost. The minister preached stright from Joe Crews. Only one lady was polite to us as we were leaving, a Somonian lady who actually got the others angry at her because she told them off when I was accused by one lady for only coming to the church for the free food. I told the lady I was on vacation from California and I wanted to visit a local SDA church. She apparently didn't believe me and she got several inches from my face and wagged her index finger in my face and said, "It's not right to come to our church just for the food." I'm not kidding, I truly was scared. Then the Somonian lady came to my defense. Oh, I was so glad to get away from that place. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 288 Registered: 1-2003 |
Shontay, I ask for your forgiveness if i offended you in what I said. That was not my intent. There are times when I am not good with words or expressing my heart and I fear this is one of them. I could try to explain further but I have difficulty sometimes doing that when I am not face to face and able to see facial expressions. I did not mean to defend segregation in any way. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeremy, I'm so angry reading your web page that I cant even post a response...I had to start over. Maybe I can respond later. Im really in shock! Such blatant racism and other bigotry. Im just in shock. And I guess no Ellen follower can pray for the people of the SDA church I attend, plenty of sinners there, and mixed marriages, and "colored" people on the pulpit, teaching classes to lily whites, and yes, even the "ignorant" poor...and of course those who dont tithe...and those who indulge their appetites at potluck... You shoulda seen how quickly the caffeinated coffee was consumed (by church memebers)during the purpose driven life campaign. So those members cant be helped either. And heathens from marginal churches were accidently invited to those sessions, and to revelation seminars! Maybe I need to alert the secretary, so that she can take the names of the sick "undeserving" sinners off of the prayer list in the bulletin. Or we could ask them to stand up, give their histories, and "qualify" themselves for prayer.... Oh thats enough! I could go on an on. JavaGirl < dont pray for me, i dont qualify.... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 289 Registered: 1-2003 |
Javagirl, I wouldn't qualify either. Richard | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2598 Registered: 12-2003 |
Javagirl, I completely understand. These are some of the secrets the church has suppressed for over a century. I've said this before in other contexts, but I'll say it again in this one: until an Adventist really faces the truth about Ellen White, the church has a hold on them. She was not of God, and she has hurt and deceived countless numbers of people. There is no possilbe way we can excuse her as "having grown as she grew older", etc., and saying that God used her in spite of herself. God can use anyone--but she was not dedicated to the gospel of Jesus, and she was NOT His messenger. She was a messenger, but it was not of God. The church cannot explain her inconsistencies by claiming that her words show "progressive revelation". Progressive revelation NEVER begins in error and progresses to truth. It's not revelation if it's error. Progressive revelation begins with truth but few details and progesses to more and more details--as in God's promises to Abraham and David progressing to their fulfillment in Jesus. No church whose doctrines and practices and loyalty and honor include a false prophet who claims to speak for God when in fact she was promoting heresies is a church whose "mission" can be defended. Christ's mission can be defended, and if people find Jesus inside Adventism and then grow in Him, that is a work of God, not a proof of Adventism's "truth". But God wants us to be in reality. He asks that we embrace truth and walk in it. That embracing of truth includes admitting the reality of what we have believed and committing to following Jesus wherever He leads. We cannot be loyal both to what we know to be error and what we know to be truth. Such "loyalty" is a divided heartóa condition James warns against (James 4:7-10). Remember that in Jesus is healing and justice and peace and true identity. He has already born the scars, shame, and sin resulting from Ellen's "counsel". He has already redeemed in His followers' lives the evil her words engendered and encouraged. Hebrews details how Jesus is better than prophets and angels. He is better that Ellen. We can completely let her go. We may shock and hurt others who still honor her, but when we become sure that Jesus is telling us He is the truth and the only source of reality and salvation, we can let her go. What we gain in intimacy with Him and authority of the Holy Spirit far outweighs the loss we experience from those who do not understand. Jesus is carrying you through this, Javagirl. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 977 Registered: 10-2004 |
One of the "slurs" that Ellen liked to use often was "nominal churches." It seems that the full meaning of this is often overlooked. People like to say that Adventists don't teach that those in other churches aren't true Christians. But this is exactly what Ellen taught by calling them "nominal" [in name only] churches--they are Christian in name only, meaning they aren't really true Christians! Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1935 Registered: 11-2002 |
So wsaw the stewards of the Lord are wasting their time wioth those who continue using tobacco, tea and coffee. That is so spun I wouldn't even know where to go with it. Sorry Jeremy but that is as far as I got with your article. I realized with a start like that it could only get worse. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 978 Registered: 10-2004 |
There is no way at all that they can claim that EGW "grew" as she got older--the quotes that I have on my webpage are from throughout her whole life and many of them are from the 1900s, the very end of her life! Colleen, when you said that Jesus is better than Ellen, I was thinking that that's sure a big understatement! Susan, hehe, I can't blame you! Jeremy | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1937 Registered: 11-2002 |
This has nothing to do with the topic but I just want to know if any of you are from Bakersfield or that area? I heard you had a big earthquake yesterday so if anyone from the Bakersfield area is reading this I hope you and those ytou most love are fine. Keep us posted about the earthquake, please. |
