| Author |
Message |
Catalyst
Registered user
Username: Catalyst
Post Number: 80
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |     |
I have heard Karl - someone I know goes to Walla Walla, so I have been there recently. He does some good stuff.
I think that the difficulty I have is that while there are people who understand Grace - MANY of the SDA tenets depend on EGW and when you remove those...trouble begins.
At this point I am a fish out of water - I see nothing that says that one cannot be a Sabbatarian (it is NOT the "SEAL"), but it is not NECESSARY that one keep Sunday <grin>.
There is nothing WRONG with being a vegetarian (although certainly there is no Biblical problem with meat eating - I just can't do it <grin>). So what needs to happen for me is to drop some of the SDA teachings and I could have the perfect church...
Bill |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2644
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 7:41 pm: | |
Bill, I completely understand your feelings. I have shared them, and they make sense to me.
Actually, I don't think we'll find a perfect church. The body of Christ is flawed, and there's no congregation or denomination that embodies the "perfect mix" of doctrines.
You're right; there's nothing that says Sabbath-keeping is necessary--but going to church on Sunday is not Sunday-keeping! I'm really not playing with words. Going to church on Sunday does not suppose I "keep" Sunday or think it different from other days in any way. We were taught that worshiping on Sunday equalled "Sunday-keeping", or observing Sunday as Sabbath.
The New Covenant says Jesus is better than all the shadows; He is our Sabbath rest; external worship practices are no longer required.
I'm learning that in the body of Christ, we can attend churches with whom we disagree about non-essential doctrines with no loss of fellowship. The unity of the Spirit far suprasses the unity of shared practice. It was very hard for us, at first, to contemplate going to a Sunday church and trying "fit in" with people who had no understanding of where we were coming from. I remember that Richard and I discussed our wish that we lived near Clay Peck's church in Colorado when it was still meeting on Saturday.
I believe that God eventually draws us to surrender even our comfortable habits and rationalizations. We don't have to give them up because they are necessarily wrong. We have to give them up becuase if we don't, we are not allowing Him to completely direct our lives. He gives us back ourselves when we entrust them to Him, but He gives us back with blessings and surprises we would not have imagined.
Praying for you, Bill!
Colleen |
Catalyst
Registered user
Username: Catalyst
Post Number: 81
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 8:49 pm: | |
Thanks for the prayers -
Regarding "learning" - if you go to a Chiropractic College - you will "learn" to be a Chiropractor. If you go to a nursing school you will learn to be a nurse. We each choose what we are going to "learn". Each one's learning does well for the person learning, but is not the right course for others necessarily. If you get the analogy.
My point on the day of worship or church attendance was exactly that. i.e. I don't think that it matters.
I agree that there is no perfect church.
I think that you have found something that works well for you, and because of that you are eager for others to embrace it as well. I can tell you that the options where I live for churches are slim pickings - 3 Adventist (1 Blank, 1 Spahish (both VERY conservative) and one mixed which is in turmoil right now. The Non-SDA churches are VERY fundamentalist - MANY have "healing" services immediately after the sermon. MANY speak in tongues (sorry - but of me that comes across as show - when you can control it and do it only when it is time to do it and there is no edification of the saints (translation) or need for it, I am uncomfortable with it. The large (probably best) Baptist church in the area I have difficulty with because of known issues with the pastor (infidelity with members <grin>) so. . .
Onward through the fog!
Bill |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2648
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 9:15 pm: | |
Oh, my--you do have a difficult situation, Bill! I don't blame you for avoiding those you mentioned!
I'm still praying for God to guide you to someplace where you can experience true fellowship.
Colleen |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 203
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:16 pm: | |
Bill:
For whatever it's worth...I'm in a similar boat! We live in a very large metro area and haven't yet found a church that we are comfortable calling home.
BTW: I think you make a good point. Going to church on Sabbath isn't 'wrong' per se. It's the motives attached to it...or the requirements behind it. My husband always says we can go to church on Tuesday too! It's a great reminder that Jesus alone is our salvation!
I've heard some fabulous grace-based sermons as well from Adventist pulpits. The only problem in my experience is when I pin them down there's always a "but". Grace, "but". We almost stayed in the SDA church because our former pastor was incredibly grace-oriented. Fabulous sermons. Very evangelical sounding. Sadly, when we pinned him down...there was that ever-present "but".
Patria |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:01 am: | |
When there are no "buts" or when you realize all the "buts" don't harmonize with scripture it becomes very difficult to remain an SDA in good conscience, so good luck finding an SDA pastor willing to admit that there are no "buts".
Heretic |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 301
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:35 am: | |
Glad to know we're not the only ones who find it so difficult to figure out a church we're comfortable with! One would think with so many more options it would be very simple. It's just a really good thing for us that we left when we did, because MANY churches out there are less grace-oriented than the SDA church we were attending. However, we have no regrets, and integrity and desire for truth makes it obvious we just have to keep looking.
The church we went to last Sunday was a repeat visit for us, but it's our last visit to that one. It was kind of unsettling that in many ways I liked the pastor because he is likeable in his presentation style, I love his sermon organization, and he said several times it's impossible to ever become sinless. However, the entire sermon was about practical ways for us to overcome our external sins. Never one mention of grace, or the Holy Spirit transforming us. Every external sin he talked about, I've never had any problem with. After all, being raised a good SDA, there are many things I don't struggle with like a regular "worldly" person does. However, I know for a fact that all my rightouesness is as filthy rags, and there are plenty of internal sins (attitudes, etc.) that I struggle with. From the way he came across, you'd think we have a little checklist and when the externals are dealt with, we're fine.
Yesterday, I was looking up a website of a church we went to about a month ago to see if we'd want to go back. And I kicked myself for not going there this past Sunday! The sermon was titled "The Lure of Legalism". Every sermon the rest of the month is about some aspect of Grace! I know where we're going for the next few weeks. Now if we can only get brave enough to discuss things with the pastor and find out how dogmatic they are about believing every one of their doctrines... |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 138
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:38 am: | |
I know this is off the subject - but Colleen asked about this a ways back in this thread!
I've been gone from here for awhile because of my preoccupation with getting my mom settled and her finances straightened out after my sister made such a mess of them.
Mom is now in an Assisted Living Facility about 45 minutes away from where I live. My sister put her there against my wishes. It is a very pleasant place, but is run by conservative SDAs. It serves only vegan food, has worhsip services, Church on Saturday, etc. The people are nice - in an SDA sort of way!
It is too far away for us to pick mom up and take her to our Church - we drive about an hour in the opposite direction to get there. So she is back being immersed in the SDA doctrines. I feel so sad, and angry, that this has happened.
Mom is failing faster than she was while at home - I don't know whether this is because of the move, but I suspect it is. She has fallen several times, is in more pain, and is getting more confused and forgetful. It's so sad to see, knowing that my hands are tied from doing anything about it.
My sister reported me to Adult Protection Services, saying that I was abusing mom and stealing her money. I was thouroughly investigated and they found NO evidence of any wrong-doing, which made my sister angry. Our lawyer caught my sister in several lies and outright fraud. She has since gone home to Alaska, and left me to pack up and sell mom's house.
In the midst of all this, I got very sick (no surprise there!). I have been in the hospital ER twice, on oral and IV antibiotics, and have missed a lot of work. Even though this is covered FMLA so shouldn't jeopardize my employment, I don't get paid when I'm off work. Our finances are a mess! It has put a lot strain my marriage as well. My husband just wants it all to be over! It has been pretty awful.
If it weren't for my Church family I would have been totally devestated by all of this. They have been so supportive, and have kept us all in prayer. They came and helped me pack and clean mom's house. They call to check up on how I'm doing. It is just so wonderful to have this kind of Christian love and support from them.
So, I'm back to work, except for occasional time off to take care of mom's business. Hopefully, I'm over my illness, although I'm still on antibiotics for awhile. Things are slowly getting back to normal - whatever that is!
Thanks for all your prayers during this time. It is truely an answer to prayer that I'm able to keep going at all. Even though it's been hard, I've had a peace that can only come through the Holy Spirit. I know that even when I can't see the end of the tunnel, God knows what I need and will see me through. Nothing anyone does to me, or that I can do, will make a difference in the end! Thank-you Jesus for your gift of Grace.
-tisha |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2663
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:43 am: | |
Oh, Tisha--I am so sorry for what you've been experiencing. I continue to pray for you and for your mom. God will redeem even this.
Dear Father, please provide for Tisha and her husband. Please surround them with the peace your Spirit only can give, and fill their hearts with hope. We praise you for being sovereign and for already being in the future. We thank you that you are healing Tisha, and we pray that you wil glorify Yourself in this crisis and trauma. Please bless their marriage, and help each of them to surrender the other to You.
Thank you that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray, and thank you that You are walking with them through this time. We praise You for what You are doing and that You are faithful to complete what You begin in us.
In Jesus' name, Amen.
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Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 139
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:44 pm: | |
Thank-you, Colleen, for your prayer. It's so wonderful to know that we are all connected being part of the universal Christian Church. You are part of my Church Family! Thank-you so much for caring, and for the work you do for all of us. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1887
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:52 pm: | |
Tisha,
I remember when you first mentioned about your sister placing your Mom in the home. You are on my prayer list.
Father in Heaven, You know Tisha and the problem with her mother's placement. You have taken care of Tisha and are healing her. You know what is best for her and her Mom. I ask that you fill Tisha and her Mom with the Holy Spirit and that your will be done. Carry them through this time in your awesome arms. Thank you God. You are awesome.
Diana |
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