| Author | Message | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2004 |
Hey guys, I saw on here references to 28 Fundamental Beliefs... which one is the new one? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1945 Registered: 11-2002 |
Apparently at the big SDA wingdig in St. Luis earlier this year another fundamental was added on. This one is because a lot of converts are from countries where spiritism is very common so it is a fundamental denouncing spiritism and adhearing to Jesus only as our Lord and Savior. I don't know the exact wording. Maybe it can be read on the official SDA website. I found a book put out by the General Conference at a thrift store that still had the official 22 fundamentals. I sent it to Colleen so she could share with people how the SDA church keeps adding more fundamentals. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2625 Registered: 12-2003  |
If I remember right, the 28th Fundamental was referenced as "Growing In Christ". It outllines the necessity of ongoing Bible study and prayer, and it deals, as Susan said, especially with the power of God to overcome the power of demons. It was added because the church realized it had never officially addressed the issues of how to continue to grow in Christ, and also because so many Adventist converts and missionaries are facing the overt manifestations of demonism. I'm sure it's online somewhere, but I'm having some trouble finding the actual text of the doctrine. A description of it can be found here: http://www.nadadventist.org/article/articleview/578/1/8/ Colleen | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2004 |
Colleen, and everyone else, I found the "new belief". 11. Growing in Christ: By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us, as we walk with Him in peace, joy, and assurance of His love. Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus, we are called to grow into the likeness of His character, communing with Him daily in prayer, feeding on His Word, meditating on it and on His providence, singing His praises, gathering together for worship, and participating in the mission of the Church. As we give ourselves in loving service to those around us and in witnessing to His salvation, His constant presence with us through the Spirit transforms every moment and every task into a spiritual experience. (Ps 1:1, 2; 23:4; 77:11, 12; Col 1:13, 14; 2:6, 14, 15; Luke 10:17-20; Eph 5:19, 20; 6:12-18; 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:17, 18; Phil 3:7-14; 1 Thess 5:16-18; Matt 20:25-28; John 20:21; Gal 5:22-25; Rom 8:38, 39; 1 John 4:4; Heb 10:25.) This brings up a good question... is it possible, in a religion that offers no assurance of salvation, to "grow"? How can you grow in Christ if you cannot be sure you are in Christ to begin with? This one follows with every other belief they officially state: it looks good at first glance, but tied into everything else SDAs believe, its poison. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 846 Registered: 3-2005 |
It was in the forming of this 28th fundamental doctrine, that the SDA church is on record at the GC session of leaving out the resurrection doctrine. Imagine, how much better the above stated doctrine would be if because of the resurrection of Christ, then we have power over the powers that be. Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1949 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have read all the posts on #28. Why doesn't the SDA church just forget all their fundamentals and have the folks recite the Apoltle's Creed? The Apostle's Creed pretty much sums up all of Christian belief. In the Apostle's Creed we acknowledge relying on God the Father, Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit ONLY. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2629 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Jlondon. Generally, to an Adventist, growing in Christ means getting the "victory" over sin by exercising discipline over oneself. They generally say you can't really grow in Christ without reading the Bible, etc., yet bottom line it's about keeping the law. "Poison" is a good way to describe it. Colleen | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2004 |
Why don't the SDAs just recite the Apostle's Creed? If you ask me, they simply don't believe it's true. Read below. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. [See Calvin] The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. *The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ. They would not have a problem with the first verse, but look how much stands directly against what Adventists truly believe: - They would have a problem with Jesus decending into hell, which they don't believe in. - They would have a problem with Jesus raising from the dead. He didn't die, he fell asleep, and was essentially recreated. In true SDA theology, Jesus Christ is a created being. - They would have a problem with Jesus ascending to heaven and sitting at the right hand of the Father. Ellen said Jesus isn't seated, but standing and investigating. Priests sit when the work is finished. - They would never believe that the word "catholic" did not refer to the RCC. - They wouldn't commune with the saints, but with Adventists. - They would define forgiveness, resurrection, and eternal life in terms consistent with the IJ. Actually, I have no doubt that several times in the history of the SDA church an investigation of the Apostles Creed has come up and it's rejection noted in meeting minutes.... OH! BTW, if you haven't guessed by now, I've been home from my delpoyment for about 2 months now, and very glad to be back too. Joel | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 677 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome home Joel. I'm not in complete agreement with your list above, but I'd say I agree about 90%. The last SDA church I belonged to often recited The Apostles Creed and they understood the Creed's use of the word catholic. I find your assessment of the death of Jesus as seen through Adventist theological eyes as being very interesting. I'd never really looked at it that way before, but if you view His death as you would necessarily view the believes' deaths, then you are right, they believe him to be a created being. How can it be that the Creator is now created? Absolute heresy! You are also absolutely right about the decent into hell that Jesus did, indeed, perform while he lay in the tomb. Paul mentions it, and if it is in scripture then it occurred, whether EGW believed it to be possible or not. I have, however, known many Adventists who were willing to commune with the saints. It caused for them the familiar cognitive disconnect that has brought so many of us to a more clear understanding of the Gospel, but the ones that I'm referring to lived and died as true believing Seventh-day Adventists. They lived daily on the razor's edge. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 192 Registered: 2-2005 |
Belva, funny this topic of descending into hell came up today because I've been wondering about it lately. On the one hand the price had already been paid, so what would be the point of this? But on the other hand, it seems like it said somewhere that He visited souls in the lower parts of the earth. I've been trying to find texts but have been having difficulty so if anyone could help I'd be greatful. Heretic | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2004 |
Heretic, The reference is from 1 Peter 3 18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1953 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joel, Welcome home from your deployment! What branch of the service are you a member of? I guess I have been a practicing member of the Evenganical Lutheran for so long now that I failed to see the problems the SDA's would have with the Apostle's Creed. We also say the Nicine Creed as well as the Ananiccine (sp?) Creed. The last one is very long so we only say it several times per year, during Lent, etc., other times that are traditional times of deep contimplation. Yes, we use the term 'holy catholic church' with it referring to the entire body of Christianity. With the SDA denominations position of it and it only being the remnant, the only true Christians I guess they wouldn't want to include other Christians in this acknowledgement. But, dosen't even the SDA church consider death in the tumb as hell? If not, then how do they explain the passage where Jesus (or is it Paul?) goes into hell to minister to the souls in there? And, what about the places in the N.T. that very clearly say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father? I mean, this is just plain Bible and any Adventist will say he/she follows the Bible and the Bible only so when these discrepensies are pointed out what is the reply? Or is it as I'm guessing that they then have to resort to EGW for the explanination? | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2004 |
Belvalew, I concede that my assessments of Adventism are most objective and from an outsider's point of view. I never was deeply involved in Adventism, however, my wife was, and in turn I have in-laws who are still active members. If I was wrong in some of my comments above I truly apologize. I rely and appreciate getting a lot of my information about the church from those of you who were in it. Susan_2, I am in the Air Force and I'm stationed at Beale AFB, north of Sacramento, CA. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1956 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joel, I'm currently living in a tent at the campground on Bellows AFS. This must be the totally most beautiful spot on the entire planet. Have you ever been here? If not, then I recommend that you make this your next deployment or even your next vacation. I live not far from Vandengerg AFB. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2632 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joel, welcome home! I'm glad you're safe. I never thought about Jesus' death the way you descirbed it, either--but you're absolutely right. How insightful. How heretical their beliefs are! Wow. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1084 Registered: 7-2003  |
Did the wording in that fundamental strike anyone this way... Was it really Jesus death that defeated evil forces? Certainly his death paid my penalty, but it sounds as though evil had somehow been a threat to God prior to Jesus death. And isn't it his resurrection which is our hope? Maybe I'm being nitpicky and too hung up in symantics, but the phrasing of that statement just strikes me as "off". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2639 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're dead on, Melissa. There was actually a discussion on the floor to add the resurrection to the clause about defeating death, but it was denied. The wording is intentional. I'm not sure whether or not "they" fully understand why they resist the resurrectrion, but I suspect that subliminally they fear it because it's the pomsie of power and new life NOW, not just in the future. Adventists clearly don't believe in the new birth the way Christianity believes it, and they don't believe we have spirits to come alive. The resurrection touches on all that. In fact, with the resurrection being the source of power against death (instead of the strange statement that Death defeated death), then we don't have to worry about people catching the vision of their own perfection not being an issue. If Jesus' resurrection is the source of our righteousness and new identities, then we'd have be loyal to Him instead of to a denomination and a doctrinal statement. Wow, what might such loyalty yield?! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 291 Registered: 8-2004 |
But if Death defeated death, than it was Jesus' (to the SDA view) human obedience (strengthened of course by the power God let him use) that defeated death. If it was the Resurrection, then there's no way we can replicate it (not that we really can replicate Jesus' obedience either), and we're 'hopeless'. Unless of course we actually surrender even our obedience and trust Jesus alone! Mary | ||
| Jlondon81 Registered user Username: Jlondon81 Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2004 |
It is not the death of Christ that we are saved, but by the LIFE of Christ. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 851 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jesus had to have lived a perfect life for His sacrifice to be accepted, but we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. Adventism likes to emphasize Christ's perfect obedience, so then we can live a perfect life like Christ did, or at least obtain close to perfection to pass the IJ. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1086 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess maybe the presumption is that the evil spoken of in that belief statement is merely talking about death, but the first lines say: "By His death on the cross Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil. He who subjugated the demonic spirits during His earthly ministry has broken their power and made certain their ultimate doom. Jesus' victory gives us victory over the evil forces that still seek to control us..." To me, that is not merely talking about Christ being victorious over death, but that only after his death is he victorious over "evil". What about before his death? Was evil remotely a threat prior to Jesus' death? And to what? 1 Corinthians 15 is really clear that without a resurrection, we remain people without hope. But is that "by his death on the cross, Jesus triumphed over the forces of evil..."? I know we've discussed the "and resurrection" being "too wordy" for them, but I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea that only at Jesus' death was there victory over "the evil forces", which would seem demons and Satan? If only at that point Jesus was victorious, his life would seem to be as insignificant as his resurrection. As a local pastor says quite frequently, there are hundreds of tombs around the world famous for who is in them, but Jesus' tomb is the only one famous for what's not. But to me, I guess, Jesus was never threatened by "evil forces" in his God-hood, though he may have been tempted in his humanity. Maybe I'm just trying to dissect its more subtle meaning too much, presuming there is one. |
