| Author | Message | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 269 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dd, " I know He created out of love, died out of love and arose out of love and will be back to get me out of love. The rest really doesn't matter because I know I am His and He is mine!" AMEN and AMEN Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2005 |
Helovesme2 - medicine - yes. <grin> Why? Derrell - could not agree more with your first paragraph. Bill | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2005 |
Belva - if Genesis 1 is allegorical and there was no literal Adam - then it would stand to reason that there was no original sin right? If there was no original sin - how do you explain the "plan of salvation?" Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2004 |
Bill: Why? Well, just because I was curious. I was planning to be an MD, but life intervened. (My mom is a Loma Linda MD and I'm a Loma Linda product  ) Mary | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2005 |
I know MANY people at Loma Linda, I am sure that we know people in common. <grin> - Bill (Message edited by catalyst on September 16, 2005) | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 664 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bill, Genesis 1 is allegory, and a brief synopsis about beginnings. Adam isn't even mentioned until Genesis 2, and the story told in Genesis 2 is not a continuation of Genesis 1. It is a separate story altogether. There was a literal Adam. There was a literal Eve. There was original sin, and you and I have inherited it. Jesus died to provide the cure. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 665 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Bill, I really didn't intend to get on your bad side. I love the scriptures and it pains me when people try to throw doubt on them, that is all. There are so many things that we, as mere mortals, will have to wait until eternity to figure out. Please do us both a favor and stop the attack on my logic here. I'm not saying that my take, or interpretation of scripture is the only way things can possibly have been. It does frustrate me, tho, when people combine portions of scriptures as though they were seamlessly attached. There are several stories told in Genesis. They are losely tied to each other, but may or may not have a whole lot to do with each other. For instance, there is the story of the flood, then the next major story told has to do with Abraham. There is no way to definitively know how much time elapsed after the story of Noah and his family finished and we get to Abraham. I suppose you could try to recon time by the begets, but sometimes whole generations may or may not have been left out of those lists. These stories were passed down from generation to generation verbally and may not have been written down for a very long time. I'm trusting that when the scriptures speak of literal people by literal names, then those people did literally exist, and the stories told are about the persons mentioned. Sometimes we know where the people in the bible fit into the chronology of things, sometimes we don't. For instance, do we know when Job and his cronies lived? Was it before or after Isreal sorjourned in Egypt. How was he related to any of the other people mentioned in scripture? Job's story is pertinent only because God has seen fit to preserve the story, and it has served thousands of generations of searching people who were dealing with loss and the confusion that comes with loss. I cannot spar with you intellectually I've had, at best, one year of college, and you mentioned that you attended Harvard. I have engaged in discourse with you because I could not remain silent when you threw doubt on the validity of scripture, so I told you what I thought. May the Lord God watch between you and me. One day in eternity we will look back at these simple-minded discussions and laugh. God be with you until then. Belva (Message edited by belvalew on September 16, 2005) | ||
| Alnadean Registered user Username: Alnadean Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 |
Just last Sunday I was studying Gen 2:2- only because I just want to be sure I understand it right. I remember once at my church a baptist pastor was converted- ofcourse the entire conference paraded him at several churches. His point of conversion was (and I wrote it in my Bible that day) "GOD RESTED, BLESSED IT, SANCTIFIED IT. IT IS NOT SOMETHING IN THE DAY THAT WAS BLESSED. IT WAS THE DAY" He was so excited, and I was excited for him. As I pondered this last week and read and reread Genesis (though I have read the NT); I just started to feel confused and I said to God as I often do- 'I just want to do what's right' I asked Him to clear it up for me. After I prayed I grabbed a pen and paper. I put down all the possible meanings of the words BLESSED, SANCTIFIED, AND REST. The more I saw the meanings on paper the more I was convinced that God did indeed bless the day and only that day; but I started to muse about what the other texts in the NT meant and I thought of every explanation I had heard but I just couldn't get it. This was important to me because this text was the reason for my continuing belief in Adventism when 10 years ago I 'searched the scriptures' to make sure I knew what I believed about the adventist faith- not that I doubted... I was convinced. There was no question concerning the fact that God did bless and sanctify and rest on the seventh day, but as I scanned the creation story I thought that if all mankind were to observe this day then surely He would command it because He gave man instruction about their purpose here on this earth- to have dominion over everything and then He told them what their food was- so surely He would tell them to worship- no? Well He didn't. I still wasn't satisfied and as I prayed over the texts I had an epiphany. The DAY could not be THE important thing in all of His creation- it was what God DID that was important the fact that he specified days was not of particular importance: God gave us light, the firmament, sea, land, grass, herbs, fruit, the sun, moon, stars, fish, fowl, cattle, man, blessing, sanctification, and rest On day 1 (Sunday) God made light, but we don't have light just on Sundays we have it everyday On day 2 God made the firmament, but we don't just have it on Mondays we have it everyday. On day 3 God made the sea,land, grass, herbs, and fruit, but we don't just have them on Tuesdays we have them everyday. Allow me these ellipses... then On day 7 God blessed, sanctified and rested, We don't just get them on Saturdays because like all the others He gives it to us everyday! That's why we are blessed, sanctified and rest in him every single day. I believe before Adam and Eve sinned they enjoyed all of this because they had life- when they died because of sin Christ needed to bring them back to life in Him. I now have to just trust God and not let doubts creep into my mind - because believe me I go back to that text often. But I praised God on last week Sunday for His guidance Now I must say that this is just what I understood from my study. I frequently plead with God to deliver me from believing a lie. I don't ever want to explain a text to suit my own desires because that would be counterproductive. But other insights I do appreciate so feel free to comment. I pray that i will not lead anyone into error from sharing this particular view. Thanks for reading. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 186 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alnadean: YES!!! I LOVE the way you worked through that. This is something that's been brewing in my mind for some time now. I have understood that what was so perfect about the seventh day is actually the relationship with God. But I love how you drew the parallel between the rest of the created things as 'ongoing' being significant. Beautiful. Thank you. Derrell: I agree that in scientific terms creation and evolution are both theories...which is why I don't understand why both aren't being taught in public schools (but I digress). Just to clarify: You are saying that there are parts of subsets of MACRO evolution that make sense or MICRO evolution? I know that there are Christian scientists who support some parts of an evolutionary process being actually HOW God created. It's an interesting hypothesis. I agree with Belva and Colleen though that even if God did use evolutionary processes to make the universe, then there can still be a literal Adam and a literal Eve...even if they were somehow created using evolutionary processes. It's also been hypothesized that God created in 6 literal days and created each thing with maturity. Derrell and Bill: How would you say that God communicates with us as Christians? Would you say it is only in prayer? Or do you think God even communicates with us? I'm curious... Here another question I've been pondering lately: Is there a point where logic and faith cannot coexist? Richard: Amen! Belva: Paul said that he learned so many things, yet they were worth nothing. All that matters is 'Jesus Christ and Him crucified'. When the rubber meets the road, i.e. huge calamity, pain, hardship, the only thing my mind things on is Jesus...Jesus...Jesus. I believe that in the 'eternal' sense, He is ALL that matters. Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 187 Registered: 3-2005 |
p.s. I believe that in ANY sense Jesus is ALL that matters! Patria | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 666 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alnadean, Thank you for sharing the expansion of your thinking. And Patria, I agree that all the learning in the world, if it does not acknowledge the centrality of Jesus and the Gospel, is just an expense of time. It may make us better technicians or tactitians, but does nothing to center us on what really matters to our eternal outcome. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2002 |
Patriar, Good questions. I do believe that God is capable of communicating with man in innumerable ways. I also believe that it is very unlikely that he intejects himself into the affairs of humanity very often, through communication or otherwise. I believe that he gave us everything that we need to function and thrive, and how we use it is left to us... for better or for worse. Is there a point where faith and logic cannot coexist? Faith is not logical. True faith (as I understand it) is blind belief, and there is nothing logical about that. To me, the question would be, is there a place where faith and logic CAN coexist. The logical answer to that would be, no. | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2005 |
Belva: Re: I love the scriptures and it pains me when people try to throw doubt on them I love the scriptures as well - I am not "throwing doubt on them" I simply am recognizing them for what they are - not what someone else SAYS that they are. Read my post to Mary earlier in this thread. You are not on my "bad side" <grin>. Bill (Message edited by catalyst on September 17, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 798 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill, Did you graduate from LLUMC med school? If so, what year. I graduated in 76'B. Stan Ermshar riverfonz@aol.com | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 76 Registered: 6-2005 |
No - all my post academy was non SDA. Bill | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 189 Registered: 3-2005 |
Derrell: I had to crack up...I don't know if we meant to say this, but it sounds funny looking back. Is it logical that logic and faith can (or cannot) coexist? 'No' seems logical... When you say that you don't believe God necessarily interjects Himself into the affairs of humanity, are you talking about miracles or supernatural experiences? It has been my experience, which I realize is highly subjective, that God communicates in a "still small voice" not even a voice really, but sometimes an intuition. Is that what you're saying? I'm sorry to pick your brain. I'm just trying to grasp where you're coming from. Oh...if you don't mind...were you saying that there are some subsets of MICRO or MACRO evolution that make sense to you? Stan, are you still at Loma Linda? I think I read that you still live in the Loma Linda area. My husband and I lived there for 4 years. Thanks! Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 804 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Patria, We live in Anaheim. I lived in Loma Linda from 1973 until 1981. Stan | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2002 |
Patria, I agree. As I was writing, I was cackling to myself at the thought. What I meant was that I really don't think that God acts very often in the form of miracles, or other such manifestations, and I don't believe that he often communicates to people. One might say that he gave our brains the ability to subconsciously process the application on knowledge to situations, events, innumerable things in a manner that we have termed intuition, and in this way he speaks to us through what he spoke into our genetics. Yes, there are aspects to the theory of evolution that appear to have a foundation in fact. When it come to the age of the earth, the core samples of ice and rock on antarctica and Greenland speak volumes. consider their locations, and then consider the fact that they correlate in numbering of layers and massive global disasters evidenced in correlating dust and ash deposits by layer. The asteroid that struck in the Gulf of Mexico would have created a long lasting global nightmare including huge waves all around the world from water displacement, cooling due to the resulting dust cloud, earthquakes, possibly volcanoes... there is no written record of that anywhere. It seems quite obvious that it predates man. Evolution is also very obvious in its current actions. Humans, animals, and plants are able to evolve in very few generations to adapt to new and changing environment. (Well, at least some are. The others go into extinction.) It is not possible to give a short answer to your question. So I will sum it up like this. Based on what I know, it is my opinion that although much of the overall theory of evolution is terribly flawed, there is sufficient fact there to give it some credibility. LOL. Now you can laugh at/with me. Here I am opinionating and holding forth on two areas in which I have no expertise or formal training...period. Experience has taught me to be wary of faith, and particularly to distrust anything that comes out of the mouths of religious leaders. As to the rest, a retired accountant from the US Justice department once told me that the most effective way to arrive at a reasonably accurate view of a whole picture is to place all available facts (no matter how insignificant they seem) on a timeline. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2556 Registered: 12-2003  |
Alnadean, thank you for sharing your insight re: the Genesis story. I love the way you tied together what God did on all the days with what He did on Sabbath. I hadn't thought of that praticular comparison before. I still think the anwswer to the question of whether or not logic and faith can coexist lies in what we learn in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 about spiritual things being spiritually discerned. Many of us with Adventist backgrounds have trouble "getting" the idea that we have spirits that are something other than our intellects. Yet the Holy Spirit give us spiritual life, and that is not done in our intellects. 1 Cor. 1-2 clearly tell us that. When our spirits come to life by the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are literally connected to God. As 1 Cor 2:16 says, we have the mind of Christ. We still, of course, "know" things through our minds, and Paul talks about the fact that as Christ-followers we are to experience the "renewing of our minds". But all this is informed by our now-living spirits through which God teaches us, and His venue for teaching us truth is the Bible. When we approach the Bible from the perspective of being born again, it truly becomes a whole new book. Previously confusing passages make sense in a completely new way--much as Alndean described above as she prayed over the creation story. The kind of insight Alnadean described isn't purely logical nor is it a blind decision to accept a veiwpoint because one has "faith" that it must be true. It really is a knowing that comes from God--it is spiritual discernment, and when one finally "sees" something in this way, it makes logical sense and it also reinforces one's faith in God's amazing faithfulness, soveriegnty, and HUGENESS. God truly has left us great metaphorical passages which contain truth without all the details. Understanding of these passages requires insight/revelation from God. We can't arive at the truth in the Bible simply by intellectually analyzing it OR by choosing an interpretation because we think it's true and then just having blind faith regardless of the facts. God will not reveal wildly divergent things to people. Obviously, people hold varying understanding of non-central issues, but I personally believe that God doesn't want us drawing hard-and-fast conclusions about issues the Bible doesn't really clarify. I believe He calls us to trust Him enought to live with paradox. He does reveal the truth about Jesus and salvation, but even that requries the Holy Spirit to make it real in our lives. Yes, I do believe both logic and faith play roles in living as a Christ-follower. It's just that we can't ignore the spiritual dimension. That is what sets the born again apart from those who are still dead in sin. Colleen | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 120 Registered: 12-2004 |
Well we had class today and the kids were great. While the discorse had wondered from time to time, I have gotten insight into some things that will help in time. So here is another can of worms. How does the Big Bang tie together with creation theory? |
