| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2004  |
Definitely a good idea to evaluate each individual church! At one point, we were sure it would be a good plan to consider an Evangelical Free Church because afterall it's Richard and Colleen's church, and Dennis and Sylvia's church. There are two in our area, and both have been the absolute worst for extreme legalism. They have no clue about the New Covenant and strongly emphasize the 10 Commandments and being good enough for God. That second one is the church I posted about several weeks ago that felt like we were being spanked the whole time during the sermon! I'm positive that can't be the case with the churches Richard/Colleen and Dennis/Sylvia go to, so there must be differences based on the individual church itself, and not the denomination. The same would probably be true for the Vineyard churches. I read up on their history some time ago and was at first wary simply because of some things I found alluded to earlier--extremism in some Charismatic stuff. However, I've never seen any Charismatic anything the two times we went to a Vineyard church, and like I said, the one sermon was very Biblical and solid. It's just impossible to lump any church under a particular label simply because of its denominational affiliation. Although I would think the beliefs a church publicly states should at least be in line with the Bible, as a beginning screening. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 807 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven, I agree with your post 100%! I think most of us do agree that labels don't mean a lot. Many of you know that Marti and I went to one of the most famous Calvary Chapels in Costa Mesa, under a great man of God, but when you peel back the layers a little bit, you will find fundamentalism and legalism, much of it similar to Adventism. The final straw was when the pastor strongly implied that the hurricane on New Orleans was a judgment from God because of a gay parade that was going to be held there. Then there was clapping after that pronouncement. There are many good churches out there, and if we ask the Holy Spirit's guiding, I believe He will lead us to the right place. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2555 Registered: 12-2003  |
Raven, I completely agree. No, there's no legalism at our church, but that's because of our pastor. In evangelical Christianity in general, it seems, the pastor and the individual congregations have more to do with the "flavor" of the church than does any formal statement of belief. Yes, the belief statements are there, but some pastors manage to work the 10 Commandments and works into their sermons anyway. You just have to visit! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 192 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks again guys, for the very insightful information. Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 813 Registered: 3-2005 |
There will never be a perfect church fellowship on this side of eternity. I would like to re-iterate what Colleen has said often, and that is former SDAs should branch out and fellowship with other Bible believing Christians, rather than form their own fellowships. Marti and I are now in transition and we are looking for a church that is close by and is as faithful to the Bible as possible. What would be the closest thing possible to a perfect doctrinal statement that emphasizes the importance of the New Covenant? I have posted this website before on the New Covenant thread, but for review I will post it again. www.ptitx.org/News/whatis-NTC.htm Would anyone else agree that the 20 doctrinal statements listed here would be the closest thing possible to a perfect belief statement? Not very many churches have this type of belief statement, so it looks like for now we will be attending a PCA (conservative Presbyterian) church close by which is very solid on the doctrines of grace, with solid expository Bible teaching, but unfortunately I will have to live with the Westminster confession which emphasizes Covenant theology. Oh well, there are no perfect congregations. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1864 Registered: 3-2004  |
So, each of needs to pray and ask God where He wants us. He told me and I know He will tell each of you searching. My church talks about tithe every so often and when I spoke to our lead minister last week to give him the books about SDAs, I also told him about how I felt about tithing and what I had learned in the Bible. He had preached a sermon on tithing using Mal 3:10 and did not give the whole history of how God wanted the Israelites to tithe. It reminded me so much of SDAs, I wanted to get up and walk out, but I did not. I just kept telling myself, God loves a cheerful giver. But the other sermons are all grace filled and God centered. For myself, as an Adventist, everything was laid out on how we were to do things and there, supposedly, was no deviation. I am discovering that other churches are not like that and I do not have to know everything, down to the smallest detail. What is amazing to me the longer I am a Christian, is how awesome God is. I do not have to know "everything" as long as I know Him. Diana | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 298 Registered: 7-2004 |
Today we visited a church that a former SDA friend I went to school with, has been a member of for over ten years. It was a very grace-filled sermon, and it was very clear to us that the pastor does not believe perfection this side of heaven is even a possibility. His sermon was about bridging gaps in family relationships and how God expects our primary purpose in life to be supportive of our families. (In other words, it's not right to neglect the needs of your family to do your part in working for God). As a former who thoroughly understands the New Covenant, it was interesting to see him point several times to the front of the plexiglass puplit where "The Ten Commandments" were engraved down the front of it. He was saying the 10 Commandments were given purposely in the order they were, because our first duty is to love God (#1-#4), our second duty is to love our family (#5), and our last duty is to love others (#6-#10). I have to say, even though it didn't seem right to have the summary of the Old Covenant displayed so prominately in a church, that was the most grace-based sermon I've ever heard with so much reference to the 10 Commandments. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 815 Registered: 3-2005 |
Sheryl, Did you look at that New Covenant statement of faith posted above? Since I know that you and Ric are very conversant with the New Covenant, I am curious about what you thought of that statement of faith? Stan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 196 Registered: 3-2005 |
Stan, Thank you for that link! I had not seen it before. You may have posted it prior to my joining FAF. We HAVE found a church that seems to teach NCT, but now the problem is that it is so laid-back...sigh  I mean, most people come in jeans (I KNOW that doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING) I am just having a hard time opening up the box and climbing out. Part of me still wants to dress up...not to 'look' good, but for my date with Jesus! Am I just too picky? Patria | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 272 Registered: 8-2004 |
A friend of mine once told me that the whole point is to be yourself rather than worrying if you 'match' the others there. If you're a jeans and tee-shirt person, go for it! If you're a dressy dress person, go for that! If you're in between, . . . well, you get the picture. The biggest thing is to be your honest self, there to worship your personal Savior and Lord. For what it's worth, it helped me! Mary | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 |
I haven't been able satisfy my addiction to this forum for the last couple days so I'm a little behind in reading the posts, but just wanted to say that my husband and I have been members of a Vineyard church for the last five years or so and we have also visited a number of Vineyard churches while traveling. I wouldn't necessarily chose a Vineyard church if we lived somewhere else, but I love the one we attend. While the gift of tongues is acknowleged, it is never used during a regular worship service. The understanding and preaching of the new covenant has truly been a God-send for us! The music - well it ain't my Momma's church!! It surprises me that I am so fully enveloped in the praise and worship because it is not the kind of music I would normally choose. I can only say it is the Holy Spirit, without a doubt. I am not a person who prays easily in public and, for me, the whole praise service is a prayer. Arms lifted, eyes closed, face up, praising Jesus! I love the humility and honesty of the people. I love that what kind of car you drive, how you dress, or what you do for a living just doesn't matter. Have any of the rest of you noticed that after leaving Adventism you tend to choose something completely different? I think that is why the passion of worship is so important to me. The SDA church I grew up in was SO DEAD! I'm sure that not all SDA churches are that way, but I'm just dealing with what I know. Okay, I've been rambling. Just one more point. If I didn't attend VCF, I could easily find another church in town where I would be happy. It is so refreshing to worship with Christians who accept differing view points, knowing that what really matters is our common ground at the foot of the cross. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 299 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, I tried to look at the link last night before I posted, but it gave me an error message. This morning, the link is working and I've read through it. Yes, I would agree with what it says and don't see anything of concern. In fact, Ric and I have read through a lot of this Providence Theological Institute website and find it exciting that the New Covenant Theology is becoming recognized, with a label. Now it seems there's a spot we can actually point people to and say this is where we're coming from. Ric even requested information for their upcoming seminar in Tennessee, but we don't know yet if it will work out for him to attend. It will sure be wonderful if more churches can become aware of this view (which I believe is totally Biblical) and incorporate it into their beliefs and sermons. Sheryl (Message edited by Raven on September 19, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2565 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gmatt, I so relate to your experience with church. I'm still amazed that I, an SDA music major steeped in the classics (which I still LOVE, mind you) actually look forward to the worship time at church. It is such an experience for me of internal praise, and I just can't get over the reverence and sense of holiness I experience while singing those worship and praise songs. I admit I used to have a pretty haughty attitude toward what I would have termed "cheap" religious music that was just rock music "masquerading" as religious. Oh my, I've had to eat my humble pie and admit I was such a musical snob that I dismissed a true work of God. Of course, I believe, as you do, that the presence of the Holy Spirit--both working in me and present in my church--has brought about this transformation and puts this deep gratitude and worship in my heart. And when I listen to classic hymns and choral music of faith, I also feel this deep worship. God has changed my heart. I just praise Him. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 274 Registered: 1-2003  |
The question of dreams and visions has been mentioned several times. Some have expressed a belief that God no longer uses this way to communicate with His people. I disagree. Acts clearly mentions this as one of the ways He will pour out His spirit on all flesh. Acts 2:17 " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." NIV Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 819 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, I would just have to respectfully disagree with you. That prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost. Now that the canon of scripture is closed, God is no longer communicating in visions and dreams. This forum exists because of a false prophet who had visions and dreams. If we believe in visions and dreams, I think we might be setting ourselves up for another delusion. This is only my opinion from observing the false movements today such as word-faith, etc. who do believe in visions and dreams. I have yet to see any group who believes in visions and dreams be Biblically sound in the rest of their theology. Most of the time, it results in theology which "adds to the book." Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 821 Registered: 3-2005 |
I would add, however, that God is able to impress people through visions, such as stories of people in foreign lands who have come to know Christ in this way. That is a little different to any new Revelation coming in a vision or dream. I am just saying we need to be ever careful. The delusions of the last days will be Satan coming as an angel of light. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 276 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, visions and dreams do not need to be equated with a new gospel or false movements. I believe that we cut ourselves off from much of God's blessing and power because we are afraid of how we have seen it misused in the past. Misuse does not mean the gift is wrong, it just means that humans in their sinfullness took their eyes off Christ and allowed a perversion to be followed. All things must be measured agaisnt Scripture and the Word of God found in the Bible. I believe there is an ABSOLUTE truth found in the WORD that was made flesh and dwelt amoung us. He was the ultimate revelation of the nature of God. I seek more of God's persence in my life, in whatever form he choses to manifest himself. I don't speak in tonuges but if that is a gift God chooses to give me I'd humbly accept it. God has manifested Himself in my life in other physical ways and has seen fit to do it at times and in circumstances where my skeptical nature could not attribute it to other than a move of God. We serve a sovergein God and I will not rule out any way or fashion He chooses to lead or direct my life. He will not be contrary to His nature. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 823 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Richard, I appreciate your thoughts. Maybe we agree on some points. Let me ask you, do you believe that any new revelation is possible through visions? Also, I liked what you said about Christ being absolute truth. Then do you also accept the Bible as being infallible and inerrant in their original manuscripts? I appreciate Richard how God has worked in our lives and maybe we have a slightly different perspective, but that is why there is a forum. Stan | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 724 Registered: 7-2000 |
Stan, there are alot of us who have experienced the Lord speaking in dreams and visions. That doesn't mean we believe the Lord is giving anything that adds to or changes what we are taught in the Bible. In fact, we understand that IF we were to dream anything that ran contrary to the word of God, then the dream most certainly didn't come from the Lord. Example of how God can speak in a dream: I'd been carrying a pretty deeply entreched wound in my soul. I was given a dream one night that explained a question I had asked God. I didn't really understand the answer at the time, just knew that it was the answer. The dream was pointing forward to a very specific time of ministry we had at our church about a year ahead and more specifically that I needed to accept the ministry that was offered that day. He did that by using a very specific phrase, that was used by the speaker that day, addressing avery specific problem. The evening after that day of ministry (in which the Lord healed the wound) the Lord spoke to me in a vision. It was an incredibly deeply powerful moment, for that's all it lasted was a moment. Yet the result of that brief moment has changed my understanding of the love of God. I don't kow the love of God now because of the words written down in the Bible. Instead I KNOW! the love of God with every fiber of who I am. I think that is what happens with dreams and visions, prophetic words, healing, and any other sign and wonder. The words are moved off the page and He breathes life into them to make them incredibly personal by demonstrating His power. As Richard is saying above. The Lord is sovereign, and I would add, very personally involved with us. He will do whatever it takes to minister to His children. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 280 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, I have no trouble with the belief that God inspired the words that were used to write out the orginal manuscripts. HOWEVER the God I worship is so much greater and beyond human comprehension that the words used are not the end of who God is or wants to be in our lives. We read descriptions of heaven and the new earth in scripture, are the streets actually "gold"? I don't know, but I do believe that they are described in the best way possible with human words. When you read of the worship in heaven and the description of angels in heaven, I feel we see and understand through a glass "darkly". I believe that when we get to heaven we will be blown away with what we find and the awesome nature of God. I sometimes have a lack of patience when I perceive some of the discussions we have, coming close to that mythical discussion of how many angels on the head of a needle. I don't really care and want to just stay in His presence and feel Him close to me all the time. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
