| Author | Message | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 668 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Ones, What kind of bedfellows is the furror over the inclusion or exclusion of two small words going to make? Up until 1954 the pledge was repeated by every school child without including "under God." During the conservatism of the early 50's, post-war, fear of the commies, and practicing to shelter under our desks in case of nuclear attack, the words were added. There was no uproar from the unchurched about the inclusion of those words at that time. As I recall the period of time myself, even the unchurched seemed to take some comfort in thinking that the United States was blessed by God. At least they didn't get upset about their children speaking those two small words. Of course, during the 50's, even in public schools the choirs in the schools practiced and sang Christmas carols celebrating the birth of Jesus. Where I grew up in the Southwestern U.S., I don't even recall knowing about anyone protesting songs of worship of Jesus Christ, or the inclusion of creche's in public places during the Christmas season. They were still willing to use words like Christmas at that point of time. Was that oppression of the minority who do not hold to an alleigence to any god, or was it an oppression of Hindus and Buddists? Are we simply acknowledging that this oppression must be corrected now with the removal of "under God" from our pledge? I believe in religious freedom. As I mentioned on another thread, I will protect anyone else's right to consider a monkey to be their uncle, if that is what they truly believe. It doesn't mean I will believe it myself. It doesn't mean that I will jump on their bandwagon and say that I am decended from chimpanzees. I believe I have it on good authority that the human race came from the Hand of God, with the Breath of God once circulating in our lungs and bloodstream. Does that give me the right to insist that children must attest to the existence of a God that their parents do not believe in? Do we have the right to use the public school system to speak to the minds of young children, in essence usurping the Holy Spirit's job of speaking to them through the very creation itself? I love that the pledge includes "under God" in speaking of our once-great country. It hurts to think that these words may soon be stripped away. I also remember quoting the pledge without those words for the first couple of years of my education. Fortunately I was raised in a family that believed that God had had a hand in the formation of our country, and my family celebrated when those two words were added to pledge in acknowledgment of that fact. I'm not so sure that our country is "under God" any longer. Do we fight this, or do we witness the passing away of these words as evidence that our land has fogotten its roots? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2554 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm not completely sure either, Belva, but I know Paul admonishes us to pray for our leaders. I believe that whatever we do, honoring Jesus needs to overarch and inform all our other worthwhile causes--and of course, we do have causes. You make good points above. God gives us all different assignments, and I think our obligation is continually to seek Him and ask Him what He wants us to do. Just as He teaches us, He also brings us His work to do. Colleen | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2005 |
In many areas of life and living I am startled to discover that, rather than accumulating greater "answers" I find I know even less. The swirling philosophies of man, the "popular" of this secular world combined with the saddening complaciency I view in the hearts and minds of of those who consider themselves to be Christ-followers, simply because they believe in the historicity of the God event; cause me to run to the refuge I am discovering to be more real than material reality itself: the Incomprehensible, Self-existent, Self-sufficient, Eternal, Infinitude, Omniscience and Omnipotence of the Immutable God. Tozer says that if every man on earth were to become atheist, it could not affect God in any way. He is what He is in Himself without regard to any other. To believe in Him adds nothing to His perfections, to doubt Him takes nothing away. "Fountain of good, all blessings flows From Thee, no want Thy fulness knows; What but Thyself canst Thou desire? Yet, self-sufficient as Thou art, Thou dost desire my worthless heart; This, only this, does Thou require." ~Johann Scheffler I bow in the dust at His feet to know that the Holy Father in all His perfection and holy will, desires my heart still. Soli Deo Gloria! Take my essence of being now, O Holy Sovereign God, hold the clay of my self-identity in Thy hand of Love and make it as Thou Wilt. May His inner Presence bless us all this day, Jess | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 270 Registered: 8-2004 |
AMEN Jess! And thoser are some good points Belva! I'm still thinking about them! Mary | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 191 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you Jess! That was beautiful. Patria | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 186 Registered: 2-2005 |
We also know that the cross symbol, itself, is under attack by the secular left with the ACLU suing the city of LA to remove it from their city seal. On the seal, it's but a tiny depiction on top of a mission -- a historical reference -- not an attempt to throw religion around. I know their are more cases like that pending, but couldn't tell you where. How long before church's can't display crosses on top of their roofs because it offends the atheist or Muslim driving by? I'd like to see who'd be defending our civil liberties then. Heretic | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2004 |
Blessings to you, dear Jess! I LOVE the Tozer thought | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 195 Registered: 6-2001  |
What I am going to say could get me into some trouble, especially from my poor father who is a Christian school teacher, but I wonder if the explosion of Christians schools across the country in the 1970s had something to do with the problems we are facing right now. I know correlation doesn't prove causality, and I know others see the removal of prayer from the schools as being the culprit but ... When Christians removed ourselves from society in this way, why blame society for wanting to "finish the job." These are people who spent their formative years without any Christian influence. It's like how EGW said for adventists to not live in big cities because of all the ungodly people there. Well maybe if there were more Christians in the cities maybe they wouldn't be so ungodly! When my dad and others talk about teaching in a Christian school as being a ministry I know what they are saying (you dont get paid much for starters) but I think the greater ministry is teaching in the public schools. Sensitively, Hannah | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 271 Registered: 8-2004 |
That's a very good point Hannah! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 808 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, I agree completely with your point. The Reformers, Luther and Calvin were big on this idea of Christians not leaving to go to there private little enclave, because they might be polluted by the world. Hollywood was also mostly deserted by Christians also. Spectrum forum is also having a discussion on this pledge topic at www.spectrummagazine.org/phpbb Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 967 Registered: 10-2004  |
Belva, no one requires that anyone recite the pledge or say those two words. And I don't see how speaking of God is usurping the Holy Spirit's job. I believe that our country is still a great country, and of course it's still "under God"--it's not above Him is it?  Hannah, if the explosion of Christian schools occurred in the 1970s, then I would say that it was most likely because of what was already happening in the public schools. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 810 Registered: 3-2005 |
But Jeremy, I believe things would be a whole lot different in this country today if Christians stayed in the public schools, rather than run to their holy enclaves to escape the world. This mentality was most prominent in Adventism. Christians are to be "in the world, but not "of the world" and are to be a light to the world, and I have a hard time seeing how they do this by escaping the schools, and the Hollywood culture. Stan | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2005 |
As someone fought four our Country and helped to protect our Constitution, I really am upset over this. I know of some good men who gave their lives in defense of our Country. This Michael Newdow is out to make a name for himself, maybe he fancies himself as the male version of Madeline Murray O'Hare, who knows. The way I figure it, if you don't want to say the pledge fine, just stand and show respect for our Flag and keep your mouth shut!!! NO ONE is forcing the kids to say "Under God" so what is this mans problem???? | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2005 |
As someone fought for our Country and helped to protect our Constitution, I really am upset over this. I know of some good men who gave their lives in defense of our Country. This Michael Newdow is out to make a name for himself, maybe he fancies himself as the male version of Madeline Murray O'Hare, who knows. The way I figure it, if you don't want to say the pledge fine, just stand and show respect for our Flag and keep your mouth shut!!! NO ONE is forcing the kids to say "Under God" so what is this mans problem???? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 812 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen 91!! Stan | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2005 |
Sorry about the typo in my first post, long story, but I am on several meds for a NASTY sinus infection. Why is it that the immoral people always want the moral folks to change things for them? I am very patriotic, LOVE this Country, and people like this Newdow man really get under my skin!!!! I wonder how he would like living in China, Cuba or better yet, North Korea?????? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1863 Registered: 3-2004  |
Amen 91, My son is active duty Air Force at this time and has said he will defend the rights of those who disagree with him and do not like the military. Like you I am VERY PATRIOTIC, LOVE THE USA AND THE FREEDOMS WE HAVE HERE. People come to this country because of that and the fact that they do not have these freedoms in their home country and can make a better living here. But I do NOT WANT TO CHANGE EVERYTHING TO SUIT THEM. They need to adapt to the culture/customs here. That does not mean they have to agree with everything. They can practice their cultural activities at home. Just my 2 cents worth. Diana | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 649 Registered: 1-2003 |
I got the strangest private email from someone wanting to warn me to flee the cities... Dear Friend, This week I sat down at the computer to research - again - what the Country Living compilation of statements from Ellen G. White really says. I had received another email stating that "EGW says" and then followed the statement about when the United States assumes power to enforce Sunday worship, THEN will be the signal for God's people to leave the cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller towns and villages and fleeing to the hills. Admittedly, I have been perplexed, because the Sunday Laws aren't passed yet, or even really agitated, yet God told our daughters' families to LEAVE NOW from the large city of Portland AND the small town of Warrenton. Is God confused about the signals?? As I sat down to do my research, I received an email from a "friend of a friend" - with information and a link to Pastor Dave Westbrook's website http://www.backtoenoch.org/documents.htm . There was the answer I was praying to find! I was not familiar with him, but as I checked out the website, there was Country Living - revised into chronological order. Same quotes, just put in order by date. Without his permission, I am going to quote from the preface he has put on his website: "PURPOSE OF THIS EDITION "The statements compiled in this edition first appeared in the pamphlet "Country Living" published in 1946. In that edition, statements were organized topically. In this revision the statements are organized chronologically by year. This reveals that Ellen White's counsel regarding God's people leaving the cities became increasingly more urgent as time passed. "Another disturbing fact arises from this study. In 1885, Ellen G. White pointed to the assumption of power on the part of the United States to enforce Sunday worship as the signal for leaving the cities. A look at history reveals that indeed, in 1888 such an attempt was made. Later statements indicate that Ellen White recognized that this signal had come - 'The Protestant world have set up an idol sabbath in the place where God's Sabbath should be, and they are treading in the footsteps of the Papacy. For this reason I see the necessity of the people of God moving out of the cities into retired country [places,] where they may cultivate the land and raise their own produce.' (Letter 90, 1897) Mrs. White compared the push for Sunday legislation with the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. That was the signal to the Christians inside to flee the city. However, they could not flee until the armies retreated. When the armies later returned, it was then too late to leave Jerusalem. The national Sunday law issue subsided, and God's people have had more than a century to act on His counsel. Now we hear rumblings of a return of the Roman armies. It is time to act!" Another thing that has puzzled me is Ellen White's statement to the 100-200 people preparing to leave Battle Creek about a hundred years ago, to proceed with caution. It has always seemed to me that saying to get out of the cities, then saying don't do anything in haste was contradictory. That also cleared up. What I realize she meant was to PROCEED AS RAPIDLY AS POSSIBLE to ask God for His leading, learn all you can about how to survive, get your property on the altar, and prepare to follow God's directions. What it does NOT mean is to sit back and do nothing. It does NOT mean to stay in the cities when we have been told to leave. God does NOT want us to suffer either the destruction that Satan will inspire or the judgments of God. In view of the "beginning of sorrows" that we and others believe has begun in the 9.0 quake in Sumatra last December 26 and the Gulf Coast hurricane, Katrina, we are saying categorically: IT IS NOW TIME AND ALMOST TOO LATE TO GET OUT OF THE CITIES!!!! Delay no longer in seeking the will of God for your life. If you think it is hard to make the changes now, wait until you are faced with your own personal "Katrina." God's directions are to work the cities from outposts. It has not changed. Wickedness will still rub off on you and your children. In another email soon I will give you the stories of real people that God is even now taking by the hand, like Lot and his family, and HASTENING out of cities on the West Coast - and elsewhere. GOD SEEMS TO BE IN A HURRY; ARE YOU?? IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE TO GET OUT OF THE CITIES. IF YOU WAIT UNTIL THE SUNDAY LAWS ARE PASSED, YOU WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR INACTION. Please go to this link and listen to Elder Fredrick Russell's sermon titled "The Last Generation" given on Sept. 3, 2005. http://www.miracletemple.net/sermons.html WE ARE THE LAST GENERATION. God will soon work in a mighty way through those willing to follow Him completely to give the Loud Cry. It will go through the power of the Holy Spirit to the whole world, it will be warned and the work finished. The time is now. May God bless, encourage, stir you, and empower you through the infilling of His Holy Spirit to follow His will completely. Make that relationship with Him first in your life - keep your vessel filled with His Oil! Safe in Him, Ethel and Loren Price www.OmegaProjectMinistries.org I have no idea why I got this or how they got my email address or knew that I was a former SDA. Weird. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 197 Registered: 3-2005 |
This is fantacism at it's peak! Thank you for sharing...it's a good reminder of why I left the SDA church and am now a believer in the Bible and the Bible alone. Patria | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 260 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jess, if it is true that nothing we do or do not do does not effect God in anyway then why did He become angry at the Children of Isreal? You are saying that we have no impact on God. Is that not scoffing in the face of His sacrifice of His only Son? Or did I read the post wrong? Stan, As a mother of 2 teenage girls, one in private christian and the other in the most materialist public school in Oklahoma, I think I am qualified to make the following statement. The children in public schools are just that children. They are not yet equipped to face off with some of the attacks they receive in public school. My oldest could shrug it off, but my younger one longed to fellowship with Christians. In my opinion it is not the childrens responsability to carry this burden, but as the parents our responsability to see that they are in an environment that they can be properly educated for further service. |
