| Author | Message | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 181 Registered: 3-2005 |
Does anyone here have knowledge and/or thoughts about The Vineyard Fellowship? We are STILL looking for a church to call home.  I keep wondering why God called us out of the SDA church and isn't giving us clear direction about where to go now. Of course...I'm always on a different schedule than He is! Patria | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2005 |
You know - I was wondering the other day the same thing - then it dawned on me - is there any easy way to find out the sections of the scountry that we all are from? We MIGHT be within driving distance of each other and could easily start a fellowship? I say "we" in that not necessarily Patriar and I be the might be SOME here that are close enough. . .??? Bill | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2004  |
Patriar, We can so relate to a long search for a church to call home, and to being frustrated with how long it's taking God to give us direction of where to go. On the other hand, I do think it has been a positive experience to have visited the many, many churches we have checked out. For one thing, we have a clearer picture of what we do and don't want in a church. Also, I'm pretty sure that on several occasions, a church we ended up going to had a sermon we specifically needed to hear and perhaps God is leading in our journey in that way. Sometimes it does seem like it would be nice to have a "formers" church close by because then we'd be completely understood and we probably would never hear a legalistic sermon. However, that kind of reminds me of the SDA mindset--create your own little cocoon so you can't be contaminated by false doctrine, etc. Maybe if there were clearly one true church, then people would be in danger of having their loyalty to an external, created thing "church" instead of being united in Jesus alone. I don't know what the answer is, because it really does seem like 99% of the churches are messed up in some way--be it legalism, or too superficial. As far as Vineyard goes, we went to a local Vineyard church twice. Probably each varies depending on the pastor, but I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with a Vineyard Church. The first time was while we were still deciding about leaving SDAism, and it was our very first church with contemporary music--quite a shock to the system! However, we were very impressed with the awesome, Biblical sermon we heard on Prayer. Our second time, we went to that same church a few weeks ago and the music wasn't so shocking. But the sermon was by a different pastor, and we noticed it was much more superficial, with only a few Bible texts thrown in. What really struck us was how the pastor was saying that if Samson had paid attention to his upbringing and the instructions of the Lord, he wouldn't have been interested in the Philistine Delilah. One of our pet peeves is pastors who use scripture loosely and don't even bother reading what it says. In fact, that's one of the very points we had made as an example to our pastor when we left the SDA church, that EGW contradicts scripture by making that very point when the scripture clearly states that Samson's union with Delilah was "of the Lord" because He was seeking an occasion with the Philistines. In any case, I don't think that pastor's ignorance had anything to do with the fact it was a Vineyard church. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 182 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven: I so appreciate your input. I laughed outloud about the 'shock' to the system. I'd have been with ya'. My husband on the other hand would have been LOVING it. He's a musician and was trained classically (did Rachmaninoff for his senior recital) but has sadly strayed to more contemporary musical enjoyments.  Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 793 Registered: 3-2005 |
Vineyards like Calvary Chapels are all different. John Wimber started the vineyard movement. There were excesses in the use of "spiritual gifts" with phenomena such as laughing in the Spirit, headbanging, and other bizarre phenomenona, but I understand a lot of that has changed. There have been concerns about emphasizing experience over substantive Bible teaching. But generalizations are dangerous. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2003  |
Patria, I live close to a Vineyard church and attend often. The sermons are very Biblical at this church and I've met with the pastor a couple of times over the last few years and was impressed with his humility and his heart for seeking "the face of God" and His will. I also attend a non denominational church in West Covina about 15 miles from where I live and in fact I'm considered a member there. I'm very blessed in the fact that the SDA church I attend is comfortable with this and many members attend elsewhere and in fact many of us minister on the prayer teams of other churchs. Some of the churches we are involved with are Baptist, Charismatic, Luthern etc. My prayer is that each of us will find the fellowship that God has called us into. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2549 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lydell on this forum attends a Vineyard church. She'll undoubtedly have some good input. Raven, I SO AGREE with you re: formers not "glomming" together and starting their own church fellowships. It's been such a huge part of our growth and healing to worship with other Christians who don't have our background, who don't even see eye-to-eye on all doctrinal interpretions (read that eschatology, dispensationlaism, etc.) We have learned so much about the Bible and about studying it since joining our church. For one thing, as Raven said, we've had to set aside our knee-jerk reaction that assumes if people aren't interpreting the Buible the same as we are, they're wrong and can't be "safe" to worship with. In Christ, we don't HAVE to agree on the non-central issues. It's enough to be united by the Holy Spirit and in total agreement about the all-sufficiency of Jesus and the centrality of His word. From that starting point, we can all sharpen each other, learn new things, and deepen in Jesus. Patria, I'll join you in praying for God's leading in the choice of a church! Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 719 Registered: 7-2000 |
I've been a member of a Vineyard church for 9 years now. We find the sermons to be solidly Biblically based. (And I can tell you that I have been highly skeptical after ADventism...as I'll bet we all are! ha don't we all become extremely careful to compare what we see to scripture post SDA?) Vineyard churches feel like we can learn from both the people at the traditional and charismatic end of the Christian table. The association of churches is fairly "new" to the Christian landscape....really only got going in the 80's. So, yes, there have been some excesses during the learning process. But the leadership has dealt with those as they have developed. As a result, the structure of the assocation has changed and matured. We certainly don't find that experience is emphasized over substantive teaching. Instead we hear the reminder that all things must be checked out by scripture and constant encouragment to get into Bible study. While experience is not emphasized, we do have an expectation that sometimes the Holy Spirit will choose to do something out of the ordinary (of a typical service). An example would be someone who is being prayed for trembling as the presence of the Lord is made very real to them. It is a very low-hype atmostphere. Have visited a Pentecostal church where it was most evident that the worship team and pastor were attempting to trump up some kind of emotional response on the part of the people. That is frowned upon in Vineyard churches, we want what is real, not some emotional display. I've seen the same attitude in the various Vineyard churches we have visited, as well as at a pastor's conference. That isn't to say you won't find a church or pastor who gets off base...we are talking about human beings here, after all...but emotional hype is not something valued or encouraged in our churches. Looking around our congregation, I would have to say that our style of worship connects especially with creative folks. Thank the Lord for variety! We see worship is being the center of all of Christian life. To us "worship" is not a service, or a part of a service. Instead it is the individual really connecting with the Lord...praising him, glorifying him, honoring him, and placing our focus on him. ( just as an aside here, because worship is done on such an individual basis, it is pretty common in the Vineyard to see people singing with their eyes shut as a way of shutting out anything around them that might be distracting to them.) Vineyard churches are pastor led....there is no denominational leadership that assigns a pastor to a congregation or moves them around. Missions work is done by different congregations joining together to help plant new churches. We do what we call "servant evangelism" on a local level. This is realtively simple deeds done in the Lord's name, motivated by His love...a sermon in action. Those are just thoughts that pop into my head. The Association of Vineyard Churches has a website. You can read about the beliefs we share in common there. And I'd be happy to answer any questions. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 184 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thank you all. Patria | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 267 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lydell I think you have described things very well. I have always felt Vineyard churches did things in a reverent fashion. It is true that many from an SDA background might feel "challenged" by the worship style but I love the freedom and sense of entering into HIS presence. I'm one of those that close my eyes as I "sing" and quietly move into the presence of God in prayerful adoration. We have some at my home SDA church who also worship with reverent praise dance and the use of worship banners. It is never done as a performance but as an offering of worship to God. Eight days from now we are having a worshop in the afternoon after church for those of us who want to learn more about the use of Praise Banners and how to use them as a form of worship. Richard PS: for the few here that know me personally I'm sure it is hard to imagine me using praise banners in worship but I have 3 sets of banners to "tangle myself up in". rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 794 Registered: 3-2005 |
I was also surprised to find out that Wayne Grudem, who is one of my favorite Calvinist theologians attends a Vineyard church, and he even wrote a paper defending John Wimber against some attacks against the Vineyard. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, Surprises never cease ! ! ! <grin> John Wimber was not what I'd consider a tradionalist. In Christ, Richard PS: I'd was surprised as well when you posted that. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 795 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Richard, I have to admit that all I had heard for 20 years was negative things about the vineyard. The movement started out as a breakaway from Calvary Chapel. John Wimber was teaching and doing things that were very unconventional, and Chuck Smith did not want to be associated with it, so a new movement was started. Lydell may be able to correct me if I am wrong, but that is what was circulated around SoCal. But Wayne Grudem did surprise and upset a lot of people when he wrote that paper, and if anyone is interested it is on the internet, but I forgot where, but a search would reveal it. Stan | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 720 Registered: 7-2000 |
Don't know, Stan, I just understood that the split was amicable, both sides realizing they were headed in different directions in some things. All I know is I never hear anything negative about the Calvary Chapel churches in the Vineyard. Richard, I can't get into the banner thing myself, but think you'd enjoy our service. Actually, my favorite times are when the presence of the Spirit of God is felt so heavily after a song that the worship team gets quiet and everyone just waits on the Lord. But then there was that one time where we were signing this worship song that was kind of, um...lively...I had looked up and around the room, thinking about the stories I knew of some of these folks' past. The deliverances that had been there, the lives that had been transformed by God. And suddenly I got this picture in my mind of the "throne room of heaven" I guess you would call it. And way off at the side, standing in the shadow of some pillars stood a group of certain excessively tight-laced folks we had known in the local SDA congregation. They were clicking their tongues in disgust at the "shameful" display of emotion. Okay, don't get nervous folks, but I did feel some Holy Laughter there. Just couldn't stop. It was like a door had popped open and freedom was wafting through the room and washing over me. REally a sweet thing. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 270 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, I think that "unconventional" is an apt description of some aspects of the Vineyard movement. But then I rmemeber that Christ was not exactly conventional when He walked the earth. I've grown to realize that the box I had God in, in past years, was way to little. I know that there are manifestations in some charismatic circles which are not of God. BUT I'm not willing to get in an argument over many of those issues if it takes my eyes of Christ. The devil would like nothing better than that. Some of the OT prophets did some pretty strange things as God worked through them to reveal His will and love. I just prayer for discernment where needed so I will not be mislead. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 271 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, Here is the defense of Vineyard you referred to: http://www.vineyardusa.org/publications/positionpapers.aspx Richard | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 797 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Richard--you found it! Stan | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2005 |
Patriar, I have also looked at two vinyard churches in my area. I was so very impressed with their ministry to the community! I spoke to the secretary at length and was impressed. Dont know all about the theology there, and the website was vague, but they are committed to supporting their members and the community. All kinds of 12-step type support groups, cookouts, food pantry type stuff. I was impressed with their faith in action. And an extrememly warm family type atmosphere, I stopped in in the middle of a weekday, and the volunteers who were sorting clothes all came out to meet me and hug me! Im supposed to visit a Church of God with a friend. I'm wary of that, used to live near an extremely rigid church of God college (no dating, no pants for girls etc) My friend promises her church is different, and she is a woman of extreme faith and relationship with Jesus. It just sounds so familiar, "were different now"....dont want to jump from the pot into the fire... It seems it would be easier just to stay put, and at times it seems like no big deal to do just that...oh who knows, its friday nite, and I always get nostalgic on friday nite. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 188 Registered: 3-2005 |
Javagirl: Thanks for the info. I've looked up a couple of Vineyard Church's here...we may go. Let me know what you think of the Church of God. Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 805 Registered: 3-2005 |
Patria, I admit I am biased, but have you checked out any Evangelical Free churches, or say conservative Presbyterian or Reformed churches? You seem to have an interest in good solid Bible teaching. I respect what Lydell says, and even a prominent theologian says, but overall Vineyard churches are not known for their solid scriptural teaching. Most of them lean Arminian in their theology, and most of them emphasize experiential phenomenom such as speaking in tongues. There are exceptions to what I am saying, and probably Lydell's is an exception, but evaluate each individual church on its own merits. Calvary Chapels are very similar, some are good, but some are questionable. Stan |
