| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 10:09 am: |     |
Violet, I'll be interested to read Jess's response to your question above--which is a good one.
I'll make one comment about it, also--I believe the Tozer quote Jess used is stating that nothing we do changes God in any way. I don't believe that means He doesn't respond to us according to our specific choices, however--His disciplining of Israel and now also of us, his Gentile children, often is His way of responding to our blindness and the unsurrendered parts of our lives. He desires that we live in the light of knowing the truth and that we are willing surrender, and when we are stubborn, He does interact with us in ways that cause us to come face-to-face with our brokenness.
I don't believe this discipline means God changes. He is who He is; His discipline and justice and his grace are eternal qualities of Him.
Colleen |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 261
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 12:25 pm: | |
Colleen, I agree nothing we do or do not do would change God for He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What the quote said was nothing affects God---big difference, in my opinion.
PS who is Tozer? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2567
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 12:34 pm: | |
Interesting, Violet. I went back and re-read the quote just now, and I took it differently than you did. I see what you mean...I also still see it suggesting that nothing we do actually "affects" God--as in making him think or feel differently about us.
If "affect" means to create emotional responses, I don't agree, either. Jesus clearly wept as he saw the dark hopelessness of the people surrounding Mary and Martha on the occasion of Lazarus' death just before He raised him to life. And Jesus was cearly angry at the money changers in the temple. Etc.
Colleen
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 818
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 1:04 pm: | |
Violet,
I agree, now it is too late, as the public schools are out of control. My statement was wondering what kind of society we would have if Christians never formed private schools, and instead always stayed in public schools. Think about if school boards were controlled by Christians. Now, it would take a massive effort to change the schools.
Stan |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:14 pm: | |
Stan, I have heard, but never verified, it may of been on this forum, that public schools were orginally started so that we could make sure that everyone could read the Bible and that the original readers were based on the Bible.
The problem we face today is that our leaders are bowing down to pressure to be re-elected by the more vocal librals. I truly think that some people really believe that there is such thing as seperation of church and state and not an establishment clause. It just goes to show what can happen when people do not verify their facts or qualify their opinions. Fiction become reality in their minds.
V |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 196
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:38 pm: | |
I do agree with you Stan. In spite of what I said in the above post, I don't want my daughter attending a public school, especially in Seattle. I don't think I'm contradicting myself either. 
Rather I'm theorizing "what might have been."
Explanatorily,
Hannah |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 278
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 4:13 pm: | |
Hannah,
I understand what many are saying here but please remember that there are many dedicated Christian teachers in the public schools. Please keep us in your prayers.
I'm not going to debate the system but I know of teachers who regularly move through their room and stop at each desk to pray for the child who will sit there that day.
I've had parents come to parent/teacher conference to "check me out" because their kids have told them about my Christian beliefs. This happens even without my speaking "directly" about what I believe.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 4:54 pm: | |
Richard, there are some public school teachers that go to my church who were unquestionably called by God for this work. What a wonderful way to reach these children. May God bless you and all of the other Christian teachers out there!
Check out this site for some interesting quotes regarding public education as a whole. I was pretty amazed at some of the dates of these quotes. Here are some examples:
http://winn.com/whee/PUTwistedRoots.html
"[Our] great object was to get rid of Christianity, and to convert our churches into halls of science. The plan was not to make open attacks on religion...but to establish a system of state - we said national - schools, from which all religion was to be excluded...and to which all parents were to be compelled by law to send their children. For this purpose, a secret society was formed and the whole country was to be organized."
Orestes Brownson, 1803-1876
"I think that the most important factor moving us toward a secular society has been the educational factor. Our schools may not teach Johnny to read properly, but the fact that Johnny is in school until he is sixteen tends to lead toward the elimination of religious superstition."
Paul Blanshard, "Three Cheers For Our Secular State,"
The Humanist, March/April 1976
Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism, and every American school is a school of humanism. What can a theistic Sunday School's meeting for an hour once a week and teaching only a fraction of the children do to stem the tide of the five-day program of humanistic teaching?"
Charles F. Potter,
Humanism: A New Religion, 1930
I went to a family conference last month called "The Battle for the Truth." The speakers were Dr. R.C. Sproul, Jr. and Dr. Voddie Baucham.
It was at this conference that I heard quotes like the ones above regarding public education.
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Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 300
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 5:14 pm: | |
The public school our kids go to is in a Christian community, and I believe it shows in the kindness displayed by the teachers and many of the kids. I was impressed with a local church we visited at the beginning of last school year where they had a special teacher dedication service (just like they do in the SDA church), except this church didn't have a Christian school affiliated with it, and they had a dedication prayer for any and every teacher regardless of what school system they were affiliated with, and even the home school parents. There were quite a lot of teachers who participated in that. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 276
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 10:45 pm: | |
Wow Raven! That must have been something special to witness!
I am grateful for all the Christian teachers in this world, whether they've been called to public, private, or homeschools.
I do believe that as parents, no matter where our children attend school we should be active in their training and education as well. We should know what's going on in their classrooms, and get to know their teachers. I bet we would find many positive suprises among whatever negative ones pop up!
Mary |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 197
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 12:47 am: | |
Richard, bless your heart. You are the reason I think public school teaching is a ministry. If I had a lot of $$ and lots of ambition I would start a magazine or something for Christian teachers. My last church also had a lot of public school teachers. I only know of one so far at my present church. I do pray for them!
Sweetly,
Hannah |
Mrsbrian3
Registered user
Username: Mrsbrian3
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 8:32 am: | |
Unfortunately (IMO) being a christian doesn't make you a good teacher. My son is in public school for the first time this year. He was in an SDA school for the first 5 years. I don't know if all 6 of his current teachers are christian or not, but their treatment of him has been far more christian than he received in the SDA school he previously attended. Hopefully as the year goes on there will be opportunities to discover whether or not his teachers are christian.
Our new church, Crossroads, also had a special prayer of dedication for the teachers. But first they had all the students come up front and prayed for them. Then the teachers joined them. The pastor had the children lay their hands on the heads and shoulders of the teachers and pray for them. The pastor prayed for the students, but they had a student pray for the teachers. It was very touching.
Kim
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 9:50 am: | |
We also prayed for the administrators and school board members and cafeteria workers...anyone employed by the school system was involved in our prayer time...they all touch our kids in one way or another. It is a highly moving time.
I live in Kansas where creation was at least given breathing room in the board of education a few years ago. It was not mandated to be taught, but the door was opened that they didn't have to teach evolution. I don't remember all the details, and am not sure how many schools changed anything, but nearly every single board member who voted for that motion/rule/whatever it's called was voted off the school board when their term was up. There was a lot of very negative op-eds about how Kansas has moved back to the stone ages to not require evolution, blah blah blah. It was quite shocking how many people view evolution as "progression". Now who's ignorance is hanging out??? Anyway, the chair of one school board was still a very dedicated Christian woman last I checked, but I'm not sure if her term has come up yet or exactly how her role is filled even. I believe they have reversed that ruling, but I don't remember if that was actually done or just something talked about being done.
My son was very blessed to be in a public school with Christian teachers, that I know prayed for him and cared for him. It seemed we fought more parents' ideals than teachers' curriculum. |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:59 pm: | |
Violet
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 9:13 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jess, if it is true that nothing we do or do not do does not effect God in anyway then why did He become angry at the Children of Isreal? You are saying that we have no impact on God. Is that not scoffing in the face of His sacrifice of His only Son? Or did I read the post wrong?
Violet, I'll see if I can clarify a bit. But first let me say that a growing conviction of mine is that wrong ideas or perverted notions about God soon rot the religion in which they appear. Before the church fades and grows distorted, there must first be a corrupting of her basic theology. She gets a wrong answer to the questin, "What is God like?" and goes on from there.
"The intellect knoweth that it is ignorant of Thee," said Nicholas of Cusa, "because it knoweth Thou canst not be known, unless the unknowable could be known, and the invisible beheld and the inaccessible attained." But if by the question "What is God like?" we mean "What is God like in Himself?" there can be no answer. But if we ask "What has God discosed about Himself that the reverent reason can comprehend?" there is a satisfying answer.
A man is the sum of his parts and his character the sum of the traits that compose it. He is the sum of the traits that make up his character. God exists in Himself and of Himself. His being He owes to no one. His substance is invisible. He has no parts but is single in His unitary being. The harmony of His being is the result not of a perfect balance of parts but of the absence of parts. Between His attributes no contradictioin can exist. He does not divide Himself to perform a work, but works in the total unity of His being.
An atribute, then, is not a part of God. It is how God is, and as far as the reasoning mind can go, we may say that it is what God is, though, what He is He cannot tell us. Love, for instance, is not something God has and which may grow or diminish or cease to be. His love is the way God is, and when He loves He is sim0ly being Himself!
God is self-existent. Aside from God, nothing is self-caused. No creature has life in itself; all life is a gift from God. Need is a creature-word and cannot be spoken of the Creator. God has a voluntary relation to everything He has made, but He has no necessary relation to anything outside of Himself. His interest in His creatures arises from His sovereign good pleasure. To God alone nothing is necessary. The word necessary is wholly foreign to God. Since He is the Being supreme over all, it follows that God cannot be elevated. I only sense the elevation of God in my consciousness as my understanding of His divine Being grows clearer from the attributes He reveals and which are expanded in my understanding. He needs no one, but when faith is present He works through anyone!
There are no degrees in God. Nothing in God is less or more, or large or small. He is what He is in Himself, without qualifying thought or word. He is simply GOD! God never hurries. There are no deadlines for Him to meet. God's Being has to be different from all other beings. He is not victim to emotional swings. Since God is self-existent, He is not composed. There are in Him no parts to be altered, not by any events or reactions by man or creation. One who can suffer any slightest degree of change is neither self-existent, self-sufficient, nor eternal, and so is not God! Only a being composed of parts may change, for change is basically a shift in the relation of the parts of the whole, you see, or the admission of some foreign element into the original composition. Since God is self-existent, He is not composed. There are in Him no parts to be altered. And since He is self-sufficient, nothing can enter His being from without.
"Whatever is composed of parts," says Anselm, the Christian philosopher and saint, Archbishop of Canterbury, "is not altogether one, but is in some sort plural, and diverse from itself; and either in fact or in concept is capable of dissolution. But these things are alien to Thee, than whom nothing better can be conceived of. Hence, there are no parts in Thee Lord, nor art Thou more than one. But Thou art so truly a unitary being, and so identical with Thyself, that in no respect art Thou unlike Thyself, rather Thou art unity itself, indivisible by any conception."
In God no change is possible; in men change is impossible to escape. The law of mutation belongs to a fallen world, but God is immutable, and in Him men of faith find at last eternal permanence.
In coming to God at any time we need not wonder whether we shall find Him in a receptive mood. He is always receptive to misery and need, as well as to love and faith. He never changes moods, cools off in His affections or loses enthusiasm. His attitude toward sin today is the same as it was when He drove out sinful man from the garden. In our effort to commune with God, we should remember that all change must be on our part. We can never persuade God to change. "I am the Lord, I change not."
All God's actions towards man, be it Israel of old or you and I today, are balanced and in perfect harmony in the whole of His beingl His justice must be present in his mercy, and his love in judgment. And so with ALL the divine attributes. To fear God and to not be afraid is the great paradox of faith. When God sentences evil men or when He brought curses upon Israel, or when He rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself.
There is nothing in His justice which forbids the exercise of His mercy. No attribute of God is in conflict with another. God's compassion flows out of His goodness, and goodness withoutjustice is not goodness. God spares us because He is good, but He could not be good if He were not just. So God does what becomes Him as the supremely good God.
Now the problem of how God can be just and still justify the unjust is found in our doctrine of redemption. It is that, through the work of Christ in atonement, justice is not violated but satisfied when God spares the sinner. Redeptive theology teaches that mercy does not become effective toward a man until justice has done its work. the just penalty for sin was exacted when Christ our Substitute died for us on the cross.
But God's justice stands forever against the sinner in utter severity. The vague and tenuous hope that God is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the consciences of millions. This is why God's saving Grace for the elect is so utterly amazing and blessed beyond a thousand years of praising to express!
The O.T. has more than four times as much to say about God's mercy as does the New.
"let us seek Thee in longing," pleaded Anselem, "let me long for Thee in seeking; let me find Thee in love, and love Thee in finding." Love and faith are at home in the mystery of the Godhead. Let reason kneel in reverence outside.
Jess |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 828
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:15 pm: | |
Amen Jess!! What a statement. You are right Jess, the popular Christian church today wants to create God in their own image; instead of God being the center of worship, man becomes the center of worship and it becomes all about us.
Romans 9 is so clear. God will do what He wants with His creation.
One of the best books I have ever read on the character and attributes of God is J.I. Packer's book "Knowing God". Thanks again Jess for a great post.
Stan |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1872
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:44 pm: | |
I have written else where on this forum how an SDA teacher treated my son in the 4th grade. Looking back on it, I am glad it happened as that is why I pulled him out of SDA school. YEAH GOD!!
My SDA friends, at the time, told me it was the wrong thing to do and Mrs W said we should keep our children in the SDA schools. Two years later these same friends were pulling their children out of the SDA school and told me, they should have done it when I did. So, just because a person goes to church and teaches in a Christian school, does not make them a Christian.
Looking back, I can now see God's hand in things I had not seen before.
He is so awesome.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2582
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 8:42 pm: | |
Jess, thank you for your awesome post! Thank you for explaining in such detail the eternal nature of God.
He is awesome, as Diana says!
Colleen |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 202
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:49 am: | |
Jess:
That was amazing! Thank you for taking the time to write that out.
Patria |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 102
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 3:22 pm: | |
Thank you all for responding. Glad it was edifying to you. It was to me as well.
Stan, I am waiting for Packer's "knowing God" to arrive in my mail any day now. I have two of his books and they are in my "reading trough" where I nibble away on several at the same time. :c) I can't satisfy my spirit's voracious appetite. :c) Thanks for telling me it's a "good'un."
Violet, I hope my post on the nature of God helped clarify your questions.
Diana, he most surely is AWESOME! Far beyond words to describe. "Holy, holy, holy!"
Soli Deo Gloria .... may it be so!
Jess |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:38 pm: | |
I heartily endorse Stan's recommendation of Packer's "Knowing God". It was a profound and paradigm-shaping book for me.
I similarly recommend anything by John Piper: "Desiring God", "Don't Waste Your Life", "Brothers, We Are Not Professionals", "Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ" etc. Piper shows how our ultimate joy is to glorify God. I heard him in a sermon say that the reason God can meet our deepest needs and fill our emptiness is precisely because His ultimate joy is to glorify Himself. If anything besides His own glory, including us humans, were God's ultimate concern, Piper says, He would not be able to fill our emptiness. Because God is a God who worships and glorifies Himself, He can fill our hearts with transcendent joy and meaning.
I am always confronted with the awesome sovereignty of God and the matchless worth of Jesus when I read Piper.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 832
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 10:00 pm: | |
I agree Colleen, may the tribe and ministry of teachers like Piper, Sproul, and Packer increase!
John Piper's website is www.desiringgod.org. He of course is famous for the term Christian hedonism.
Stan
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Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 265
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:54 am: | |
Jess, I willl have to think and pray about it for a while. I may be bogged down in symantics right now. |
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