| Author | Message | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 172 Registered: 6-2001  |
I have been doing some more thinking about denominational enrollment numbers and I was wondering how those two numbers relate to each other. If there are 14 million Adventists worldwide but only 144,000 will be sealed during the Tribulation, that is only one out of every 100 people! I know to be a member of the 144,000 you have to keep the Sabbath and not eat meat. Are there any other criteria to narrow it down? And what happens at the end of the world if you are not a member of the 144,000 according to SDA doctrine? Curiously, Hannah | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 603 Registered: 1-2003 |
We are discussing that very topic on www.carm.org http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=46457&mesg_id=46457&page=#46519 | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 479 Registered: 6-2004 |
Seems that only the cults are the ones who classify themselves into the 144,000. The JW's also believe this topic is in regards to their sect. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 870 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hannah, EGW actually said something like only 1 out of every 100 SDAs will be saved! But I believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that once the SDA membership grew past 144,000 the mainstream SDAs started teaching that it was not a literal number, even though EGW said (at least early on) that it was. "Are there any other criteria to narrow it down?" Perfect sinlessness in thought and deed (which includes following ALL of EGW's instructions), according to EGW/traditional SDAism. "And what happens at the end of the world if you are not a member of the 144,000 according to SDA doctrine?" You are annihilated at the Second Coming and then are "resurrected" (actually re-created) after the Millennium so that you (or someone who looks like you!) can get burned up/annihilated a 2nd time in the (temporary) Lake of Fire (which they teach is the surface of the Earth). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 25, 2005) | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 174 Registered: 6-2001 |
Kudos to all those who post on argumentative forums. I would get too exasperated! Nothing like getting burnt up twice! I half suspected Adventsists to say that since a day means a year that one person really means 365 people! That leaves them with room to spare for all those non-adventists. Would you say the average Adventist believes in a literal 144,000 or not? I would think that would make a lot of Adventists really discouraged, like "why even try." Sadly, Hannah | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hannah, Your comment about Adventists having a "why even try" attitude really hits home. That is exactly the attitude my sweet little SDA Mom has! Whenever I or one of my kids do something she disapproves of, her response is to shrug and say, "Well, we're all going to Hell anyway". She says it half-jokingly, but the truth is she has always battled the hopelessness she feels within the SDA church. She joined the church nearly 50 years ago and attended the same church for 35 years before she stopped attending about 15 years ago and no one seemed to notice when she quit going. The fact that no one noticed makes me angry but in a way I am glad she doesn't get pressured to go back. I can see that she is torn. Part of her wants to believe pure and simple gospel but part of her is so afraid of what might happen if she turns her back on SDAism. She is such a dear person but my heart breaks because I would love to see her experience confidence in what Jesus has done for her. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2339 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hannah, I was taught as an Adventist that no one really knew who the 144,000 were, and further, it was probably a symbolic number. Perhaps others learned different things, but that was the way I was taught it in church school! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2005 |
It seemns that average adventist believes that membership in the SDA church assures him of salvation. The image of ark of Noah, used by Ellen White and others (Mark Finley for example), creates an image that unconsciously produced this unspoken belief. If you don't commit mortal sins, and stay with the ship, the SDA church will lead you safely in the heavenly harbour. Ellen White used the image of as ship (she doesn't identified it with the church, but I think the simbol has already a meaning)when she tried to rescued Canright. Practically in this dream God promised to guide the sda ship safely in the harbor. Just a glimpse from her letter: Dear Brother M: I had an impressive dream last night. I thought that you were on a strong vessel, sailing on very rough waters. Sometimes the waves beat over the top, and you were drenched with water. You said: "I shall get off; this vessel is going down." "No," said one who appeared to be the captain, "this vessel sails into the harbor. She will never go down." But you answered: "I shall be washed overboard. As I am neither captain or mate, who cares? I shall take my chances on that vessel you see yonder." Said the captain: "I shall not let you go there, for I know that vessel will strike the rocks before she reaches the harbor." You straightened yourself up, and said with great positiveness: "This vessel will become a wreck; I can see it just as plain as can be." The captain looked upon you with piercing eye, and said firmly: "I shall not permit you to lose your life by taking that boat. The timbers of her framework are worm-eaten, and she is a deceptive craft. If you had more knowledge you could discern between the spurious and the genuine, the holy and that appointed to utter ruin." {5T 571.3} "This vessel sails into the harbour. She will never go down." That says a lot about the assurance of salvation, being a part of the remnant church, the 144 000 and so on. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 880 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hannah, I would say that the average SDA does not believe that the 144,000 is a literal number. But they still have plenty of reason to think "why even try."  Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jeremy, you are right. They don't think 144 000 is a literal number. Perhaps is just a supposition of mine, but I think that, after 150 of history of adventism, they hope to never be a part of the 144 000 and be alive at the second coming of Christ. In some way or another, they wish to never be a part of the final generation. I think many adventists hope to go into their graves, and never see the time of trouble. Our parents escaped, perhaps we will escape too. Like the problem of the oil, someday will be no more, but all people hope to never see this day, and the subject is never discussed. So, in my church here, in Romania, 144 000, sealing, the perfection, is tabu, in the sense that if you don't speak loudly, the problem doesn't exist. Jackob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Jackob, welcome to the forum! I think you are right about Adventists hoping they don't have to be alive during "the time of trouble." A lot of them think that if they die before the "close of probation" then they don't have to become perfect. But the problem is, Ellen White taught they had to be perfect even if they die--but they don't seem to believe that usually. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 27, 2005) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 500 Registered: 7-2004 |
Did egw say something about God mercifully "killing" the old folk before the time of trouble because He knew they could never survive all the horror that would come about? | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 178 Registered: 6-2001 |
Interesting "144,000" is symbolic when other numbers are dogmatically not. Funny they are called "Adventists" but they really aren't looking forward to the end times! I used to ask my husband about that perfection thing when he was still an Adventist, because he strongly believed it was an achievable goal. He said (as proof) that a couple of times in his life he had gone to bed and realized as he mentally went through his day that he had no sins that needed confessing. I asked him, practically, how many days you had to go without sinning before you were considered to have reached "perfection," and whether people in comas were considered to have reached perfection because they were no longer sinning. (I was more argumentative in those days.) I don't remember his answer if there was one. In my mind you cannot achieve perfection unless you are completely incapable of sinning anymore, which would only happen if somehow our sinful nature was taken away. And that will never happen in this lifetime. To take it a step further I would say a person is only perfect if he/she has never been imperfect, thus emliminating everyone. Imperfectly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2340 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hannah, you're just WAY too logical! You're right, of course. Adventists deal with this issue of not being able to sin by saying there is no one--not even Jesus--who is incapable of sin. Jesus, they say, had a human fallen nature yet was without sin. I remember being taught that if He could not sin, He couldn't have been our Savior. If He had been unable to sin, He couldn't have, therefore, been our example, and Satan's claim would then be true: the law is too hard to keep. Yet Romans states that the law was added so sin would increase... Logic just never work with Adventist arguments because they are premised on false assumptions. Imperfectly as well, Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 882 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dd, yes she did say that. Here are a couple quotes:
Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 27, 2005) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 883 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, that "Satan's claim" thing always gets me! According to the Bible, the Law being too hard for us to keep is NOT "Satan's claim," it's GOD's design! Jeremy | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2005 |
Amen Jeremy! The statement you made is greatly supported in the Word. Deut 31:25 - Deut 31:26 (NIV) 26ěTake this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you." God set it up this way...it was no great claim of Satan - as if God were taunting humanity to continue to do the IMPOSSIBLE...only WITH God is living a clean life possible. The enemy has no real claim! God's design is just that. "The Book of the Law" is the Old Covenant, and it condemned Israel if they broke the law. The Ten Commandments were written in "this book of the law". The stone tablets were placed inside the ark of the covenant. When they broke the Covenant, they came under the cursing of God. Christians are not cursed or condemned by God if they break the Old Covenant as it has ended. Rom 8:1 - Rom 8:1 (NIV) "1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." I am so glad Ellen does not 'run' my world anymore. GOD be praised! To the ONLY wise God...HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!! Shontay (Message edited by Taybie on July 28, 2005) | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 606 Registered: 1-2003 |
Great insight Taybie! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1896 Registered: 11-2002 |
I thought toe 144,000 were/are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Isreal. Am I missing something important here? Please explain. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 587 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great point, Susan. Revelation makes it clear that God has never lost track of a single one of the people who belonged to all 12 of the tribes of Isreal. The people who "know who they are" are members of only 2-1/2 of the tribes. They are from Judah, Benjamin, and the half tribe of Levi. The rest of them have forgotten their identity, but God has not, and at the end of time God will be glorified by their testimony when they "remember" who they really are. |
