| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 253 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Sunday School teacher and I were in a discussion last week about John 15 and the meaning of vs 6. He thinks it represents believers who have turned on Jesus and loose their salvation. That bothered me so I searched--using Strongs and put together Ez 15, the parable of the talents, I Cor 3:9-16 and the fruits of the Spirit. With the conclusion that Jesus is saying I will give you a foudation to build on, if you use that foudation and abide in Me you will be blessed and the fruits of the Spirt will be evident in your life. If you chosse not to build on this foundation, Jesus will take your efforts, or lack of them, and burn them up, so that you no longer have the opportunity to use them. Am I totally off track?? Would love to have your input. V | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 786 Registered: 3-2005 |
Violet, you are absolutely on track. The teaching of your Sunday School teacher is the same as the Calvary Chapel's teaching where we previously attended. In other words, these people are saying that if YOU abide in Christ, then you won't lose your salvation. But look, the emphasis comes back to salvation being up to us afterall. That is almost the same theology which holds to an investigative judgment to see if we are abiding in Him so we can be saved. The question then becomes, "what is the definition of abiding in Christ? and "did I abide enough?" Jesus would never contradict His abundantly clear statements in John 5:24, or in John 6, or in John 10 which are unrefutable. So He must be talking about the fruit we produce, and not losing our salvation. Arminianism is alive and well thruout Evangelicalism and is opposed to the doctrines of Sovereign grace. Our salvation is as secure as the Trinity itself, since the Triune God has guaranteed our salvation since before the foundation of the world. Stan | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 254 Registered: 2-2001 |
Stan and anyone else, What is your take on Hebrews 6:4-6? The teacher was using this to back up no assurance of salvation. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2545 Registered: 12-2003  |
Violet, the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 is helpful, I believe. In this parable, the truth falls on four different soils. On one, it doesn't stick; birds eat it. On another, it germinates and appears to flourish, but when the heat comes, the plants wither and die. They didn't put down roots. In a third, the plants grow, but they are sickly and eventually are overcome by the weeds which are the cares and concerns of life. In the fourth, they grow, put down deep roots, flourish, and bear much fruit. Comparing this parable with Hebrews 6:4-6 sheds further light on the subject. Hebrews says that it's impossible for those who have "once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age" to be brought back to repentence if they fall away. This text puzzled me for quite some time until I asked our pastor about it a couple years ago. He pointed out that Judas participated with the disciples in all aspects of their ministry. He was enlightened; he participated in even the power of the Holy Spirit when he went out two by two into the villages to preach and heal and cast out demons. Yet he betrayed Jesus, and the Bible records Jesus saying it would have been better for him had he not been born. Wayne Grudem, in "Bible Doctrines" pp. 223-224 connects this verse in Hebrews with the story of the Phairsees blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing Jesus' casting out demons to the power of Beelzebub. He shows how the Hebrews passage is describing people who, like the Pharisees (and, I might add, Judas) knowingly and willfully refuse to accept Jesus. Here is how he describes such a person: "The context indicates that Jesus is speaking about a sin that is not simply unbelief or rejection of Christ, but one that includes (1) a clear knowledge of who Christ is, (2) knowledge that the Holy Spirit is working through him, (3) a willful rejection of these facts, and then (4) slanderously attributing the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ to the power of Satan." BTW, the metaphor of branches being broken off was first used in the OT in a prophecy about Israel's eventual apostacy, and it's used again in Romans 11 when Paul discusses the fact than natural branches (Israelites) were broken off the olive tree so that wild branches (the Gentiles) might be grafted in. He continues to warn the Gentile believers not to be arrogant, however, because if God could break off the natural branches, He can certainly also break off the grafted wild ones. Even further, Paul states that God can graft the original broken branches back in again!! I believe the passage in John 15:6 which you mentioned is in this category of texts. It is describing a person who intellectually acknowledges that Jesus is God the Savior. They publicly align themselves with Him and with the church. They even experience the work of the Holy Spirit and participate in the work of the church much as Judas didóand much as those people represented by the quickly gorwing but quickly withering plants and also those feeble ones ultimately choked by the world. These are people who never truly gave their hearts and lives to Jesus. They flirt with the idea; they like the energy and promise of the church and of the gospel, but they hold back. They do not abandon their hearts and lives to Him. When the "right" temptation comes along, they fall away. This kind of person, I believe, may walk on the fence for a long time. They have all the information and experience they need to make a full yielding to Jesus. They dabble in Christianity, but they never sell out to Jesus. These are the people to whom the warnings in Jesus' teaching and in Hebrews and even in Paul's epistles are directed. "Get off the fence; make a commitment!!" God is saying. None of this diminishes God's sovereignty in our salvation. He alone awakens us, grants us faith to believe, and brings us to Himself. At the same time, He calls us to commit ourselves to Himósomething we cannot do unless we have experienced His Spirit's intervening power in our lives. There's a paradox here--but I believe, as Grudem also says, that the Bible teaches God's total sovereignty, and it also teaches the concurrence of our choices which have eternal consequences. At least right now, this is how I understand these texts. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 256 Registered: 2-2001 |
Colleen, Am I understanding you to say that the ones who are cast out to be burned are ones who never belived in the first place? That was my original thought--that was why I was looking for cases where people were baptized but were not truly converted. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2551 Registered: 12-2003 |
Violet, that is how I see it at this point. Again, I'm not willing to be absolsutely dogmatic about this because I do see paradox at work here. I believe our understanding is limited by our being confined within time. That being said, I believe that our pastor's example of Judas is extremely instructive. We aren't told the disciples were baptized, but Judas was included with the 12 in all the ministry and miracles Jesus commissioned the disciples to perform. He went out with them and healed and cast out demons, etc. He experienced the power of the Holy Spirit first-hand, yet in John 17:12 Jesus prayed, "While I was with them [the disciples], I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." Judas never submitted his heart to Jesus and surrendered himself to serving him. He appeared to serve him and even did the works of God with the other disciples, but he was never, apparently, committed to Jesus or saved. Colleen |
