| Author | Message | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks Stan - I did not say that scripture was not my final authority - I am just not convinced that inerrancy is required. Stan - I rejoice in the Muslims that "find Christ" as well. You are aware of the birth rate though right? And the fact that more are born to Muslims than are converting or seeing visions? Thanks for your input... Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2528 Registered: 12-2003  |
Shontay, thank you so much for your passionate affirmation of God's saving power and His joy. Your posts always touch me in the place where faith flourishes or struggles. The most compelling thing we can say about Christianity is to share the incontrovertable evidence that Jesus has changed us from the people we once were. Such change is not the result of philosophy or human will. It is the fruit of the divine power of the Holy Spirit. Jackob, you are right in describing this process as a death. For me it very much was a death. I love Patria's comments to you; she so perfectly described the reality of the Spirit's power in us to do the impossible. Jackob, Patria is right; you will not do what God asks you to do because you muster up your will to do it. You will only do it by SURRENDER. It is not strength or courage that cause people to do God's will. It is only when we give up all we desire and love to Jesus and ask Him to be our all-in-all, to make Himself known to us and to be our strength and truth that we can move. I often have to ask God to be more real to me than my fear or my dread or than the people I want to please. The issue before all of us, when we contemplate following Jesus into absolute surrender, is not the issue of our "influence". Adventism has deeply ingrained into all of us that our "influence" is paramount. We must be good "examples"; we must use our "influence" for good. This focus on the effects of our "influence" paralyzes many of us when we sense God asking us to do something that would clearly upset our "influence" on people. Even our potential influence is part of ourselves. It is something we give to God. After all, God doesn't need our "influence" or depend upon it. Others do not actually need our "influence". What God wants to do is to glorify Himself through us. His call to us is always about our commitment to Him for His glory. It's just never about our own influence or effect on others. Our effect on others is entirely in God's hands. When we decide we serve only Him, not our influence or the feelings of those we love, God then can use us. In some miraculous way He pours His love through us to those in our llives. He reveals Himself through our surrender. What happens between us and others has nothing to do with US anymore. God Himself glorifies Himself, and whatever influence our presence may exert is God's own presence. We have to give up this idea that we have any significant "influence". God want us. He then glorifies Himself through us in ways only He can do. Our position must be one of trusting surrender. Here's an ironic thing, Jackob. While I know that marriages do sometimes suffer greatly and some even break on account of the gospel, I'm going to give you a little hint: if your wife desires truth and wants to serve Jesus at some level, she will admire and deeply respect your integrity as you choose to follow Jesus. She may be angrier than you can imagine, but I assure you that women do not respect weak men. If you are strong in your love and commitment to Jesus, if you allow Him to help you to love her as Christ loves the church, she will faced with a dilemma. On the one hand, she may feel angry and sad and torn apart and abandoned, but simultaneously she will be amazed and reassured at the strength and love and confidence in you as you take your position as a Godly husband whose first loyalty is to your Father and secondly as a spiritual and emotional protector of her. Whatever great anger she may (and likely will) express is not truly about YOU. It's about her "truth" and her world being shaken. Your strength in the Lord will yield love and tenderness toward her, and she will have to grapple with the fact that your commitmenet to Jesus, while it seems to take you away from the truth she knows, is making you a stronger man and a more stable and caring husband. I can't predict what might happen in your life; I just know that surrender to Jesus yields joy and peace that transcends whatever storms might rage around you. With continuing prayers for you, Colleen PS--Stan, thanks for the Zacharias statistics. God is amazing! | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 |
As one who is currently stuggling with many of the same issues that many of you are facing (should I leave my church or stay and be an influence for good), I feel your pain. I was the head elder in my local congregation for the past 5 years or so. I finally resigned and had a talk with the pastor of the church about why I was not involved and not attending as regularly as before. I had a fairly open discussion with the pastor in which I stated that that much SDA doctrine is wrong (1844, IJ, serious doubts about EGW)and I could not remain an elder and claim to be true to SDA doctrine. I am influential within this congregation and I did not feel right in a position where the expectation is that you will be a defender of all that is Adventism. He would like to study with me. I told him that I appreciate the offer, but I have all the books that he has - what could he show me (regarding SDA doctrine) that I did not already know or have access to? I am not sure where to go from here. I find that I notice more and more the overreliance on EGW when people speak from the pulpit as well as a confusion about where understanding on a paticualar topic comes from (EGW or Scripture...they are badly blurred for most Adventists. Witness the AF DVD about end-time events). I find that it is actually getting harder to attend my local SDA church from week to week because they are as I was (and still am in far to many ways) - we say the things we are supposed to say, fall back on the same old cliches, take the same old 'party line'. I want more than this! At the same time, I don't want to be a 'basher' or someone who is constantly critical with my SDA friends. I feel quite a bit of sadness that things I have believed for 30 years are not based on Biblical truth. I can't say I feel anger, just sadness. I know that most of you on this board have gone through the same type of thing. I have attended a Messianic Jewish service a few times and find that they love Jesus and are happy in the Lord, and while i enjoy the sense of worship there (they know how to praise God!), I don't know that I can make it a permanent church home. I am getting the feeling that for me at least, this will be a slow journey out of Adventism and toward something else, what I am not sure. I am not prepared as yet to forsake some things that I believe, so that leaves me (and my wife) in limbo to some degree. It is hard to walk away from something that you have given so much of your life to as well as walking away from a group of people who at heart are good people trying to follow Jesus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2531 Registered: 12-2003 |
Insearchof, Jesus will walk in front of you and teach you exactly what He wants you to know. You do not need to make any decisions right now about where to go or what to do. Your description of your experience in and with church stirs up so many familiar feelings. That sense of increasing discomfort but not being clear what to do about it--that was exactly what Richard and I went through. From the time we began to realize that Adventism was not in the Bible to the time we officially left was about four years. Our questioning began even earlier. God is faithful, Insearchof, and He will guide you to Himself and show you, one step at a time, where He wants you to walk. Eventually you will be in a place where you feel resolved, and God will be faithful to walk with you right into that place. I SO KNOW that feeling of contemplating leaving so many good people sharing the connection of wanting to follow Jesus or do the right thing. Leaving is not something you should do unless or until God clearly directs you. After all, the issue is not "staying" or "leaving". The real issue is obedience to Jesus--surrender of everything--trusting Him to provide what He knows you need. Jesus will gradually become more and more central to your life; your love for Him and His grace to you will gradually become more and more clear, and you will gradully know you can't live your live without saying Yes to Him whatever He asks of you. He makes His will and Himself known to us. He is faithful to complete what He begins in us. You can trust Him and His timing, Insearchof. Praying for you-- Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1057 Registered: 7-2003  |
Pheeki, I had a related type experience this weekend at church. I had worked in the AV room during first service, so I knew what was going to happen when I sat through 2nd service, but watching is so different than participating. As I was singing the final song, I just got so choked up "this is the air I breathe...." and I could barely breathe through the tears. It has been such a stressful week that I realized that was the first time I had just stopped to spend time with God in several days. Though they're going into a study series I'd rather not do, the Lord spoke to my heart as I listened to the sermon and realized that I could get something out of it too. Several gave testimonies of the people in our church reaching out during different life crossroads, and I realized that we are truly one in the bond of love, not doctrine. When we love as Christ loved, that's when the world wants what we've got. I thank God for this forum and the ability to "be vulnerable" as Colleen calls it. I think God has given me a witness and it would be only half a witness if I only shared the happy/positive side. The bible shared the failings of our spiritual fathers...None of those in scripture were only portrayed as spotless. "A man after God's own heart" had many sins in his life. He did many "bad" things, along with the good. If God shares both sides of their stories, why don't we share both sides of ours? Doesn't that make us more real? I think people who only seem happy all the time are great imitators or living in serious denial. Everyone faces good and bad. The growth comes in the response. | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2005 |
Jacob, Catalyst and others. I really find this discussion about being a newborn Christian inside or outside SDA to be interesting. Personally Iím inside. My story in short version is that I was baptized as an SDA about 30 years ago. I remember many situations where my faith has been touched and moved by the Holy Spirit. Doctrines like the IJ has never been a major point for me, since no one has been able to explain it. So I have left it in the ìdepartmentî of unanswered questions. Early in my SDA life I have been open to the uniqueness of a relation to Jesus, but about five years ago I made a personal experience with Jesus. I just know that happened, and I just know that he smiled, looked into my eyes and said ìCome ñ follow meî. I experiences a rest in Jesus that can not be described. Part by part I realized what discipleship was all about. Not to be like Jesus, but to follow him as my rabbi. Hopefully I dare to follow him close, but sometimes I do it on distance, like I guess would have been the case if I had been there in Palestina 2000 years ago. My call is to take part in building the heavenly Kingdom, which Jesus started to build, and which the church is building today by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. One day we will experience the perfect Kingdom when he returns. The major task in this Kingdom is to love people, help them and tell about or experience with Jesus. Realizing that I knew by heart that the core SDA-message in some aspects was out of focus ñ even focusing on another gospel. Many here has explained these non gospel issues very clear. Now the question about inside or outside SDA. The main question is where Jesus is asking me to be. I general I think that I am given a church, like my parents are given to me without my choice. And like when unloving parents are hurting the child and driving it away, so it could be with a church. Do I leave church because of my selfish attitudes, or is there a new call by the Holy Spirit to a new service in the Kingdom? Sure, there is a battle to stay. Life for Christ is not a easy life. Paul expressed that in 2 Kor12:7-10. To stay within is a question to remain in, and build new relations with people that is loved by Jesus. My marriage and family relations would be hurt. It is also the task to refocus and encourages to matters that is important for the Kingdom. It is like seeding the mustard grain, one never knows when, or if it grows. Only by faith I can believe there is progress for the Kingdom. Inside SDA is frustrating but I ask Jesus to focus on the real issues and not on things that is to big for me. One thing to big is to change the whole system, with GC and all. If it is the will of God that will happen anyway. But I can be a part to change church from inside, step by step, person by person. I donít even have to argue with them, I can just do the job Iím called to among people in society. Those who feel I can be a good counsellor would come to me, like those outside the church would come to me asking about the Kingdom when they are ready. All this is prompted by the Holy Spirit. To be inside SDA means to develop an understanding why people do as they do and respond by love and tender guidance. Many unbiblical expressions of Adventism discussed here is also totally unknown by me, probably showing that the Spirit is leading some parts of the worldwide SDA church closer to an evangelical mainstream. There is a interesting example in the Roman Catholic Jesuits. They are educated, first in theological studies, then into a profession like teaching or other jobs out in society. During their preparation they spend four weeks in a special spiritual retreat, meditating over the life of Jesus. They where traditionally looked very badly by the protestants since they ìinfiltratedî church and society. But their mission was to spread the love of Jesus, therefore the name Jesuit. I think we need ìJesuitsî in all positions of society today. That means good new for us who still remains inside SDA. It means good new for those who Jesus calls to other denominations, even Mormons and JehovahsÖ As a ìJesuitî I need a community to rest in, the place where I have my spiritual identity. I¥m glad to find this FAF community since for the first time after being newborn I feel a understanding for the situation being inside SDA, but not adopting all the doctrines they stress. I also have found good relations with other Christians in an ecumenical project I take part in, and by taking classes in theology at a nearby theology university. This gives me my identity as a Christ follower. I really looking forward to follow this forum and to be a part of giving the testimony of Jesus (yes ñ I really mean that :-) ) where ever I go. There is no other testimony, not one by EGW or others ñ just by Jesus. Bless u all. /D | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2005 |
InSearchOf - My wife and I found that the Messianic Jews had some great things to offer - BUT - they have some REAL definite ideas about end time events and how and where they happen that I did not ever get attached to <grin>. Bill | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill: You are once again philosophizing...AND you didn't answer my challenge.  Patria | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2005 |
Patriar, hmmmm. . .that is a sin? (philosophizing) Once again with the "you need". . . What makes you think that I do NOT study the Bible? Just because you and I do not interpret it the same way...? Thank you for your input... Bill | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 258 Registered: 1-2003  |
Shontay, I just want to say one word, "Thank you" sorry I guess that is two words. Your simple testimony to how God works in your life is very beautiful. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 168 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill: I'm not sure if we interpret it differently or not. You tell me. I believe the Bible says it is God-breathed. You seem to say it is not. and thank YOU for your input. Patria p.s. philosophizing CAN be a sin, I suppose....when it separates the reality of what the Bible actually says from what I'd like it to say. By the way, I'm not trying to be condescending...I actually have struggled with this immensely. i.e. divine election | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2533 Registered: 12-2003 |
The people of the Jesus Seminar study the Bible. Billy Graham (by way of contrast) studies the Bible. They arrive at opposing conclusions. The difference between the two? Faith. Faith in God and in His promises and His word yields a conviction that the Bible is God's inerrant word to us, and for 2,000 Christians have been gleaning the same truths from itóbecause they have been taught by the same Spirit Who authored the book. Truly, as Patria and Stan and Melissa and others have said, one's view of Scripture and one's trust in God determines one's foundational arguments. People who do not agree about the inspiration of Scripture are on different playing fields and cannot hope to arrive at consensus. Philosophy is not an alternative to faith, and faith is not a form of philsophy. They are in different categories. People cannot conduct an honest discussion by using philsophical arguments to counter spiritual understanding. 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 clearly explain the incompatability of human logic with spiritual understanding. The human mind is not the ultimate definer of reality. God isóand it takes His revelation through His Son and His word to communicate that reality. The miracle of Jesus the Man/Son of God is that the Ultimate Reality in all creation revealed Himself to us personally and seeks to make us His children. How amazing that is! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2534 Registered: 12-2003 |
Sorry--in my second full paragraph I intended to say "for 2,000 years" Christians have been arriving at the same conclusions! Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen, One has to decide what one is going to have faith in, no? Just because someone SAYS that something is infallible does not make it so - EGW is a good example of this that you and I can agree on I believe. One can have faith in the Bible, and in God - and I do - it is not the same as your faith - nor even possibly what you think my faith should be. But again - It is me and MY faith not me and YOUR faith that has a relationship with Christ. You say that God is working and seeking - you are willing to say that about the most obtuse circumstances (women in Iran for example) you are optimistic that God will save them but yet when I demur to say how wonderful your ideas are you are quick to cast aspersions on my Christianity and make it be "philosophy". Everyone here has a philosophy - yours is that you believe in an inerrant Bible - mine is a little different. I should point out that your philosoophy has changed before hasn't it (you used to be an Adventist). It might change again as the Lord leads you in understanding. You might come to realise that things that you thought now were important really were not so important. My personality type (choleric/sanguine)is my greatest hinderance, but I believe that you should love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. (That is my goal but my choleric personality gets in the way frequently). I think that we condescend and treat other people more poorly than we should. I believe that these two commandments are more important than a technical understanding of hades. What do you think? Bill | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2005 |
Patriar Re: Philosophizing can be a sin I suppose: Yes - so can being judgemental (finding motes in other's eyes) as well <Grin>. No - I do not believe that the Bible is "God Breathed". Wow - while that certainly sounds pious I am wondering scientifically how you would explain that? Which Bible and what version? Wow - Again, thank you for your input. Bill | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 169 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill: 2 Timothy 3:16 16"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2005 |
p.s. That's from the NIV. www.biblegateway.com has any version you're looking for. Patria | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 307 Registered: 7-2004  |
Shontay, Anyone rolling past your post missed a great chance for a blessing. I thought it was great. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2535 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, my belief that the Bible has to be the one external source of truth is what led me out of Adventism. My confidence in it has increased as I've been willing to live by the Spirit. No, my leaving Adventism isn't related to philosophy; neither is my belief in the Bible nor my unbelief in Ellen. Further, no one's faith in God is a self-generated phenomenon. Even our saving faith is a gift from Him. Abraham, the father of all the faithful, had no real faith. When God told him he would have a son, he laughed. (Look it up--Sarah wasn't the only one who laughed. Genesis 17:17) Even though he doubted, he chose to persist in yielding to God. Abraham's faith was God's own faith imputed to him and counted as righteousness. It's the same for all of us. We can't generate our own saving faith; we're born spiritually dead. God has to awaken us and grant us faith to believe. In my journey through and out of Adventism, my "philosophy" has not changed. I have always wanted to belong to Jesus and to mirror Him. I have always believed in absolute truth external from me. I have always believed God communicated to us through Jesus. My understandings of those things have changed and grown as God has been faithful to my desire to know Him, but He has not changed. My change is not one of philosophy; it's one of understanding and surrender. It's one of becoming spiritually alive and aware, and it is completely the work of God, not me. Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 44 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen, Re: "and its completely God, not me." But others that have a different path than yours cannot be God driven? Re: "We can't generate our own faith" If I have not faith, it is God's fault? Re: Philosophy Dictionary definition: The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs. Trust me - your beliefs are based on "philosophy", just like mine. Otherwise we are flipping a coin. Bill |
