| Author | Message | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2005 |
Mornin' all.. I admit...I normally lurk until something begs for my responses. I don't quite remember who said what, (I have been reading this particular thread since 9 am this morning...it is now 12:23pm) but someone said that it was not until they were brought OUT of the SDA belief system that they became a more effective witness for Christ...and then someone else said that they belived that staying in the SDA church as a witness was more beneficial for them. HALLELUJAH to GOD for both of you!!! I am the example of the first statement...my witness has slowly been buildging, because people are SO curious. More and more I am asked why I left and my answers are very simple..."I no longer agree with the doctrine of the church, nor did the doctrine line up with the Word of God." I ALWAYS get puzzled looks and stubborn glances. The second statement refers to my best friend. I have struggled with trying to understand why he reamins a theology student, but disagrees with the teachings. I am supporting him, though, because it took time for me to fully see and I know it will take time for him as well. He believes that his witness is to come from within. People are amazed that he and I are still friends, though majority of what used to be 'our friends' think that I am crazy. I praise GOD for the person that gave that explanation. Though it must be a struggle and battle to go about things in this manner, it still may have a very lasting impression and affect on those that know you. I for one stopped posting prayer requests, because they have become QUITE personal and the last that I have posted have not yet been answered. I So enjoy the many minds here and appreciate even the 'arguments'  LOL!! I sometimes need to vent...I have PLENTY on my plate and at times my words are often BASHful . I cannot lie...there was a great amount of anger inside of me that screamed all the time! I could not understand why an institution so deceptive even entered my life. But I am not nearly as angry anymore...though sarcasm will find its way to my lips (or finger tips) at times. I know the Lord brought me back to Him via the SDA 'church'. I was out of fellowship with Him for 3 years prior to the Bible worker knocking on my door. The Lord appealed to my intellect, and thus allowed me in, to make friends and connections that will last my lifetime and to use my voice (QUITE outspoken) to echo His constant love to my friends which shake their heads in confusion at my choices. I am glad to be free! Shontay | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, I'm sick of rationalization and don't want to fool myself, and say no to Jesus because I renounce my identity. At the same time I don't want to loose my adventist identity because relationships are necessary to give others the gospel, it's a must for communication. But this must be also a rationalization, because I have mioxed feelings, and mixed motivations. Catalyst said something which many adventists who know the gospel think, but not aloud. They hope that when they will be many, they will reform the church. Is it possible or not? If it is, to leave adventism like you means one person in minus, and consequently one in plus for the cultic sdas. We are so few, why reduce the number? If it is impossible to reform the sda church, even in a city, or a country, to remain adventist will be foolishness. Sometimes I'm feeling that all the members who are born again, and who rejcts EGW, IJ, Sabbath but still are sda, through their membership justify the existence of the church, as a christian church. I fell like I'm used as a tool for hope for the church. But, if it is possible to be a change, something like in WWCG, it pays to remain adventist. The influence of Canright was teminated when he resigned. The point is that adventism equates renouncing adventism with renouncing christianity, this is not my view, but of adventism. I don't see how I can have good relationship with many in the church who once consider me a believer, and after resignation they doesn't want to hear something from me. But the question is: is it possible for the church to experience something like World Wide Church of God? If will be enough members to change it, I think it is possible. But will be enough? Or even it will be many, the system will overpower and defeat them? I think that if the visions of EGW were supranatural and from the devil, the devil has a claim on sda. But Jesus has not also, as you said? The influence of the devil through EGW will stay forever? After all, she's dead, and her corruption is available on the internet and media. It seems that the reality of what she and the doctrines of SDA can't be avoided by the church. She will collapse or not? What is the claim of devil? From my point of view, the visions of EGW were fake, in the sense that nothing supranaturally were there, she just manifested the problems of someone who was hitted in the nose with a stone. And the material of the visions were taked from human, not supranatural sources, plagiarism. I think that the if the visions were supranatural, and the devil was implied in them, his hold on sda will be forever. They are evil, they crossed the border, the maked a pact with the devil, and are evil, like Spock said. I don't read the full book, just the first 50 pages. but I don't know this the situation is this or not. I'm afraid that even if I, with all the knowledge I have know about adventism, I don't see the picture like you see, and must discover a dark side which today i'm not sure. I'm afraid that if I will not ever discovered the reality, the full reality if I not leave sda. Can you help me to discover this reality, even if I'm still sda? jackob | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 639 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jakob. I think you are right. The devil has a claim on SDAism but so does Jesus. They are believers! I say that but...I tried to stay there for over a year, after the Lord took the blinders off. I became more and more frustrated...most of the people are asleep and complacent...they don't want to know what you know, they don't want the boat rocked and they don't care that half of what they were taught...is not in the Bible. WHY? Money and comfort. My own SDA preacher brother refers to the SDA church as Laodocia. They know it but they don't care enough to fix it. It's like they have been lulled into a stupor by believing strong delusion. Some have chosen to stay, though they don't believe, out of job security, fear of losing their comfort zone, fear of losing friends... I just couldn't sit there and listen to the Glory due to Christ that they were giving to a day of the week and a woman...and I felt I couldn't communicate therapeutically...I felt angry. The few I did share the Gospel with and my new found beliefs really didn't want to hear it. Even the pastor...who had a chance to talk me out of leaving and convince me I was wrong...didn't take the time to do so. I think deep down he knew SDAism is wrong but couldn't say or he would lose his job. Good luck to you...stay as long as you can and as long as you can do some good but don't let it ruin your walk with Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2524 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dear Jackob, Ask God to show you what you need to see, to understand what He wants you to understand, and to keep you grounded in reality and truth. The confusion you express above is normal. In my case (and, I believe, in most people's cases), such confusion and inability to identify what is REAL comes from a deep lack of willingness to surrender everything we think we know and understand. It's extremely frightening and even disorienting to tell God you're willing to surrender everything you believe and love and allow Him to reveal to you the truth of Himself and His word. When we start to see the truth, it is normal to try to rationalize what we're learning with what we have personally experienced. It's unnerving to admit that we might have been completely wrong or deceived. It's very hard to admit that we might not have had "greater light" or more keen understanding than the "plain Christians" we've always believed didn't have all the truth. The secret, Jackob, is to stay grounded in Jesus and His word. When the doubt and disorientation come, ask Him to keep you grounded in truth and reality. Ask him to make His word clear to you, and ask Him to teach you with His Spirit and to keep your heart in His peace. Ask Him to give you His courage to be willing to admit deep in your heart the truth He shows you. As for the church changing and the WWCG's change: The WWCG's change did NOT happen because enough people learned the truth and changed the church. The WWCG changed because the top leadership discovered the gospel and mandated a change. They first began instructing their pastors and asking them to teach the New Covenant, and then, on the same day, all the WWCG churches showed a video of the church president announcing that they were abandoning all the OT doctrines and entering the evangelical community. The SDA church leadership is not--currently--close to embracing the New Covenant. Rather, they are tightening their grip on Ellen White and the traditional doctrines. While many people are waking up to the truth, the official church is not. They are pushing Ellen more than they ever have--even to their new program of printing 2,000,000 packets of 10 EGW books in various languages and distributing them by 2010 to the new members in the countries that currently don't have access to her books. The people cannot change the church administration. They can only vote with their money and their feet. Unless God does a miracle (which He can, of course), the SDA leaders are not likely to abandon their Adventism in favor of the gospel. There are many reasons the official church is not likely to change, but on the bottom line, they have many monetary interests and behind-the-scenes alliances with various powerful entities including the Catholic church. To change the church would require the administration to decide to give up their financial and power interests. They just aren't showing signs of doing that. And as to the question of whether or not the SDA can experience a revival: Besides the issue of what would be necessary for change (i.e. the administraion would have to change, not just the people), there is the issue of "revive what?" If the church were based on the gospel, there would be something to revive. Because the church doctrines are based on the affirmation of a false prophet and have no Biblical base, because they are literally "another gospel", the church cannot "revive". It would have to "reform". There is no gospel at its heart. The people in the pews will not be able to change the church any more than the people in the pews would be able to change the Catholic church. One way to think of it is to think of the Mormon church or the Jehovah's witnesses. Would we be willing to say they could experience a "revival"? Would we be comfortable with the Mormons ow JWs "reviving" and embracing them as part of the Christian community as long as they maintained their Mormon or JW identity? Jesus' claim on Adventism, as I see it, is that He finds many individuals in the church because they learn about Jesus, even if what they learn is not Biblical. I believe that many people really do commit their lives to Him, but do not live in freedom by the power of the Holy Spirit because they do not really know the gospel. These are the people God continues to call and to whom He continues to reveal truth. These are the people whom He often leads out of the church eventually. Adventism IS another gospel. It is not a true Christian religion. It is a very clever deception and, I think, is very much like Catholicism in the way it presents something that sounds very close to the truth but adds to it and requires extra-biblical authority which leads people away from freedom in Jesus. Jackob, just trust Jesus. He will show you the truth. The crisis you are experiencing, I believe, is a crisis of being willing to surrender what you think and believe and knowóto give up rationalizingóand to allow God to teach you His will. Until you do that, you really don't know what He may ask of you. Similarly, you will not experience the deep peace and freedom of knowing you are at the center of His will. And the great paradox is that when you finally give up your right to have and believe what you want and accept Jesus and His truth, you will find the most astonishing joy, even if you find yourslef facing great change. As Oswald Chamber says, we discover more from five minutes of obedience to Jesus than we learn in 5 months of studying the issue. I'm praying for you, Jackob! Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2005 |
The "tightening" or their beliefs to EGW I believe will actually hurt the church in my opinion - I think that the closer they/SDA's hold EGW the more those who are haveing trouble with her message will have to push away. No matter what church you go to, there is always someone who will tell you that the only true way is the way that THEY understand it. Even here on this forum people do not say "this is how I understand it after studying it. . ." they say - "this is the way that it is". We all see through a glass darkly - none of us has seen the other side and come back with facts - we are all walking in FAITH. . . Oh well - GRACE, GRACE - AMAZING GRACE. . . would that I were able to give it in the same measure as I need it <grin>. Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2004 |
Jackob, Praying that God will give you all you need for each day. He WILL guide you to what you should do whether that is 'go' or 'stay'. Ask God for what YOU should do regardless of other people - regardless of your wife, your friends, your family, your enemies, and regardless of how you think things will turn out if you take one course or another. God asks us for obedience, not for us to figure out how everything is going to work out. He really does work things out for the best, even if it's nothing like we could possibly imagine things would go. He hasn't promised us an easy road, or a road without contradictions, shame, embarassment, or harassment. But He has promised to bring us THRU everything that he brings us TO. I know in my own journey my pride at 'having the truth' has been torn down, and I'm learning to stand before God by trusting Him rather than because I 'have it all figured out'. I will just say that from what you've written it seems that you may already know which it is that you need to do, but aren't ready to face it. Give yourself to God no matter the consequences and He really will come thru for you! Mary | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jakob, I truly understand your dilemma! And I dont know the answer yet. I finally had to take the advice of this forum when I first came on, and just focus on Jesus. I have tried, with others, on several occasions to make some changes within my SDA church. The people were responsive, the administration would get on board, and then they would stonewall. It was so frustrating. I'm less convinced at this point that the System can change. But many people within the system are changing. I will pray for you and myself that God reveal to us where we can best serve Him, and that we have peace about the situation. Pheeki, Oh yes, I know that feeling of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the goosebumps and the quickening. I ususally experience it when I am in nature! Or with certain songs. Or with those "aha" moments with other believers. WHen i am hiking with my dogs, "My soul WELLS UP with halleleujas" to borrow a line from Kathy Trocolli... Dd, The bible study I have attended for 5 years has been the same for me. Legalistic sometimes, but in the Word! I met my closest local friend there. We initially bonded over a song called THE WORD by Sara Groves. "The Word was, the Word is, and the Word will be... Now I just need to find a church that truly preaches the Word. The sign over the door or on the website is not always what is inside the church body as many have mentioned. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2002 |
Javagirl (love the moniker as I come froma coffee drinking ordnung) If you ever find the church you speak of, please let me know. I have developed serious doubts that such a thing exists. It seems that all pastors and churches have some sort of underhanded agenda. | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 |
Bill and others I have been reading this thread. My two cents. I think that according to the SDA church if you do not believe in the "fundumental beliefs" of adventism that you are not an Adventist. To be and Adventist you MUST believe In EGW. If you do not believe in EGW as a true prophet then you CANNOT support the pillars of Adventism period. The biblical support just is not there. I also believe that it is very difficult (if at all possible) to enter a true grace based relationship with Jesus while hanging on to Adventist teaching. The key word many of my FAF friends use is FREEDOM. The minute I left Adventism I felt free. I felt the burden that I placed on myself from guilt leave. To this day when I focus on that moment in my life I am moved to cry. Yes I know the exact moment that the whole picture came into focus. When you get it you can't help but be a little angry over missing out on the FREEDOM because of the teaching of EGW and the Adventist church. In time you forgive. Sometimes you laugh at the absurdity. Sometimes you post about the craziness and it seems like bashing. Sometimes you bash. It is all part the the grief/recovery cycle. I guess it is like getting a divorce. One day you will get it. One day you will get up from the SDA church and leave because you can't stand to sit through one more sermon that tries to add something to the salvation equation. Someday you will grow tired of hearing facts told as if they are in the Bible and they are not. If you have been raised in the SDA church your whole life (like I was) I bet you cannot tell bible fact from EGW tainted fact. The SDA church will not change from within. Upper administration does not want it to change. TRUST GRACE. TRUST CHRIST. Leave Adventism it will be the hardest and most rewarding thing you will ever do. Yours in christ Brian | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dd: I am SOOO grateful for BSF. It was the opening to my leaving the SDA church. Jackob and Javagirl: If you decide to leave, you can always go back. There was always a feeling for me that if I left, that was "it". There would be no going back, but it's simply not true. Jesus will will continue to guide you. It strikes me that the turmoil you feel could be clear indication of the cultish nature of the SDA church. I am so sorry if I offend...I KNOW how hard it is to identify SDAism with 'cult'. (My family is all still within Adventism.) And I too believe that there are many within SDAism that are true Believers. That said, I believe that the vast majority of those believers do not understand the true Gospel of Grace as it has been revealed to us. (i.e. Jesus plus nothing) Please know I do not say this easily or lightly. I identify with your feelings. I have been down the same road (or at least VERY close to the same). Something Colleen has said over the past few days has resonated like a gong. It IS true that the farther away from Adventism I have come, the MORE cultish and crazy it looks. It truly may take getting some distance, even if just for a little while, to be able to see without the veil. I am praying for you. May you see Jesus' leading so clearly you have no doubts! He is holding you tightly...you can COUNT on it! In Christian Love, Patria | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2005 |
Brian2: Re: I think that according to the SDA church if you do not believe in the "fundumental beliefs" of adventism that you are not an Adventist. end quote... Trust me - A strict Jew does not think that a liberal Jew really is one - The Taliban does not think that Amerirican Islamist are true to Islam... I do not have to be an SDA - it really does not bother me to be one or not... What I want to be Is a Christian - in the true sense of the word. There are always people that will tell you that you have to believe this or that to be "true". . . Notice that even here on the freedom board one is told that to be a true Christian one must. . . believe in the inerrant Bible, believe in hades... (again - everyone will agree that it is non-salvific, but important and you MUST believe this way). We each find our own freedom. The difficulty is we each choose our own physician - think about it - the person most unlikely to know what is wrong actually chooses their own physician - if you go to a surgeon you are most likely to get surgery - go to a witch doctor, then witch medicine, a chiropractor, aloe vera or manipulation. A person who grows up in India most likely will be a Hindu, Iran, you will believe in Islam. Some enlightened people will "see the light" but mostly we all chose our own physician... Bill | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 228 Registered: 8-2004 |
It is true that at least in some SDA churches EGW is an option. When I was baptised at Pine Forest Academy, the pastor told me that the 'fundamental' about EGW was one that you could accept or not as you chose. At the time I had questions, but gave her the benifit of the doubt. It's amazing what I found when I finally got time to look for answers to my questions! Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2525 Registered: 12-2003 |
Of course, Mary, that pastor was not practicing integrity himself! (I know you realize that--I'm not chastising you!) Your story underscores the craziness of Adventism: in practice, they can obfuscate and do double-speak if it helps them gain the ends they desire. Your pastor wanted to report one more baptism, and he knew that once you were in, you would be bound to Ellen whether you "believed" in her or not. Even if your head didn't believe, your membership would be attesting to her validity. Actually, Bill, Romans 1 clarifies that all men are without excuse; they have suppressed the knowledge of God with their wickedness. Of course natural humans are predisposed to become what their culture embraces. God, however, reveals Himself, and each person decides whether he will humble himself before Him in total worship and surrender or not. Contrary to many popular opinions, God seeks us out. Without His intervention, no human could decide to know Him. We are born spiritually dead (Ephesians 2); God saves us while we are still in our sins. But we get to decide whether, confronted with the reality of Jesus, we will embrace Him or not. Just as the Pharisees KNEW who Jesus was, understood that He was God and did miracles by the power of God, they still insisted he cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub. No, I don't believe we each "find our own freedom". According to the Bible, freedom is only found in Jesus, and we only experience it when we surrender to Him. If a person is going to say that sources other than the Bible promise freedom elsewhere and that people in other cultures use their holy sources to find their own freedom, then there is no consensus on absolute truth and reality. Without that consensus, there is no foundation for discussion. Either the Holy Spirit is the author and interpreter of the Bible, or the Bible is just one more holy book which humans can interpret. Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen - I believe that "God seeks us out" is a pious thing to say - it certainly sounds religious. The problem is that if so - He certainly SEEMS like He is not doing His job in Iran/Iraq/Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. . . If by "seeks us out" you mean that He finds us and brings us to a knowledge of the Trinity/Christianity etc... A woman in Iran certainly is gong to have a VERY difficult (read impossible time) in finding the God that you worship each Sunday. Just my opinion... Bill | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thanks Colleen for your prayer. Like Mary said, it seems that I know what to do but Iím not ready to face the challenge. Patria, I think is it right to say that because adventism is a cult, this is reflected in my problems. Brian, I was raised as adventist, and of course, Iím tired, but supposed not so tired to walk out from adventism. My problem arise from the fact that Iím not ready to go through two divorces, one from the church, and one from my wife. I think that my problem is that I donít trust in Jesus 100% for my future and this is my weakness. Colleen, you are right when you said that I donít know the deep peace of being at the center of His will. I think that without this peace Iím totally unable to renounce adventism, surrendering all to God. But, if this peace comes after I surrender all to God, and I think about me as weak, incapable of this, how can I get out? Itís something like this: you will be strong if you take this bitter medicine, but you must be strong to take it. I have an illustration about this: have you seen the movie Constantine? In it is a scene in which he helps a girl to go in the other world, the hell, or hades, something like this. The method is through water. He tells the girl to have a deep breath and sink in the water (in the bathroom). She ask him how long she needs to stay under water. He tell her that she needs to stay all the time it needs. She sinks and at one point she suffocates and want to go out. At this moment, he pushes her body in the water, like someone who want to kill her. She fights, and at one moment, she is in the domain of the dead. Please, excuse my illustration, but Iím like the girl. I want to go to the other side of the life, beyond the fence of adventism (from hell to life, not like the girl). But itís like death. I, Gabriel, will dye, my identity is gone, probably my identity as husband (I donít know this for sure, but I must surrender my control of the future, and thinking about the consequences). Like the girl I will fight to stay alive. Even if she chooses to go to death, on the road she changed his mind when the pressure goes up. It needs somenone else to choose for her, to push her in the water. I wish I would be strong enough to carry my decision to leave adventism, but, I think, when the pressure will go up, I will change my mind. If it is possible for someone else to decides for me and forced me to remain at my decision, I think all would be fine. But, like I said, Iím weak, and seems that I donít have the moral coourage, power and willigness to surrender all to Christ, and maintain that surrender. It seems to me that I many times surrender everything to Jesus, renouncing cardinal beliefs in adventism, and experience loosing friends and the respect of others when I told them my new position. But now, when Iím facing loosing my wife and my kid, my job, the perspective is frightening. The pressure goes up, and I fight for survive. I wish somebody else pushed and continue to choose in place of me what I choose initially. But, most of all, I question my surrender. Evidently, after all you said, my friends, my initial surrender was not 100%. Please, excuse me, but Iím confused. Is it possible to know that you surrender everything and is not just an intellectual surrender ìof everythingî? After all, Iím not a hero. I admire very much the people from this forum who surrender all to Christ, they are heroes, with interior strenght to go through high pressures. I donít want to fool myself thinking that I have the same resources like them. It seems like it is a quality with which you are born or not. Sorry for these thoughts, but these are my thoughts. Sometimes I wish Iíll be another person, who is courageous, and for whom Jesus is sufficient for his needs. So, Iím not a hero, and is not my fault that sda church is a cult. Because of itís cultish nature I have problems with myself, and grave problems with my wife, who thinks that I loose my soul if I go out of the church, and said that she married someone whit whom she wants to be in heaven, and not go on a different way. When I think renouncing to be an adventist, Iím happy, because Iíll no longer sustain with my feet and money the church, but when I delay my exit at the request of my wife, Iím unhappy, and sometimes have anger reactions on my wife, and on my child. Itís something blaming them for the situation, for stealing my freedom. Iím also sick of my reactions, and helpless, unable to do the right thing. And of course, I pay for the sins of others, for the sins of sda church who uses mind control and manipulation to keep the people inside Please, pray for me, thank you very much for all prayers. Jackob | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2005 |
Oh Jackob: WE are not heroes. OH my goodness...you have such a heavy burden on your heart. Please forgive me for what must have sounded so very trite. I sit here and talk about whether or not you should leave...only YOU and God know your situation. What I DO know is this: You WILL have the power to make a decision to leave SDAism when and if the time comes. That power will NOT be from yourself, but from the Holy Spirit and Him alone. For now, Jackob remember Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Do not be manipulated by false guilt. Jesus alone is your salvation whether or not you leave the Adventist church. In other words: YOU ARE HIS whether you leave SDAism or not. You cannot be plucked from His hands. YOU are well aware of the importance of obedience. After all, you were raised in Adventism. You will do what you need to do by the Power of the Holy Spirit....when the time is right. God bless you, dear brother in Christ. I will be praying for Jesus to reveal Himself in very tangible ways. I will be praying for your wife to become open to the idea of Adventism's problems; and specifically that you will never, never be separated from your family. Jesus is not going to fail you. Though He does not necessarily promise happiness, He will give you profound joy in Himself. (my paraphrase) In Christ, Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill: Have you ever done a study on the history of the Scriptures? It occurs to me that while you philosophize, Colleen, Chris, Stan, Melissa and others have been give you clear Scripture to support their beliefs. It strikes me that you need an encounter with the reality that Scripture is indeed from God. 2 Timothy 3:16. Please don't take our word for it (as if you would) but I pose a challenge for you: Get into the Word of God. You learn what Scripture has to say on a daily basis, and then you decide what you think. Because here's the reality. We can discuss from a philosophical standpoint all kinds of "problems" with what the Bible mandates. You're simply arguing from a different playing field. You seem to believe that Scripture is NOT God-breathed. We simply DO believe that the Bible means what it says. Though I cannot give you answers as to how He will save all of His people, I CAN tell you what the Bible says. That is a part of Colleen's point regarding absolute truth. If there is no absolute truth, then there is no basis for morality because your reality is yours and mine is mine. When you take that to it's logical conclusion, then it's OK for me to murder someone if they've cramped my style a bit. To say that this is not true is to place trust in human nature. History itself has proved over and over that human nature is depraved. The problems that occurred in New Orleans post hurricane are a perfect example of the fact that humans cannot be depended on to make good decisions. So once again, YOU've got to get into the Word before you can make a decision. Philosophize all you want, but the reality is in Jesus. He has said that He has revealed Himself through Scripture. Do I understand how He's going to save that Indian woman? NO, quite frankly I don't. But because I know that He is trustworthy, I then can know that HE has it firmly under control. This is His universe, not mine. "Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light." John 11:9 Then look at this passage. As usual Scripture illustrates my point far better than I can. 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a] 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsóand the things that are notóto nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godóthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[b] 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 I'll tell you in good humor, that you remind me so much of one of my brothers. Like you, he has such a quick, logical mind. He has challenged me and pushed me to really KNOW what the Bible says. He is still an SDA and will tell you that He doesn't feel like leaving because his friends are all there. The interesting thing is that our words just pass each other by because He doesn't know what the Bible says. So once again, I pose a challenge to you: Get into the Word of God and get it into you to be trite. It is only at that point that you will see how very little philosophy has to do with faith. In Christian Love, Patria | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2005 |
Patria - grin - You know someone from Islam would quote the Kuran and tell you that it was because you misunderstand what Allah wrote. You also keep assuming that if I do not agree with you or others here that it is because _I_ am wrong or do not understand. In Christian love... Bill | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2005 |
Regardless of who thinks what...My Jesus has set me free and I pray for those who wrestle with themselves, their values, their hates and loves and their view of the Almighty. It is a struggle everyone that desires to see Him, to be with Him goes through and I have not the heart to tell a person where they do/do not understand. Yes, we should ask questions and yes we should think...but trying to rationalize the God of everything is an impossible task. His ways and thoughts are above our own. I know that I am not as educated as a lot of you and often my statements are rolled past, but I thank my God for the ability to hear His voice and know that I am secure in Him. I thank Him that my journey out of Adventism was not nearly as hard as some of the stories I read here. I am greatful and able to say with confidence that I am free. The fact remains that He will either own up to us or deny us...not because He is exacting and merciless...but because we have either exemplified a life of His love and continual submittance to His will or we have denied Him for a god of our own fashioning. I am almost sure that not everyone will read my post...but I pray that one someone does. I pray that it touches you and helps you to see that the answer is simple...the answer is Jesus. It is us, mankind that has put greater demands on ourselves...we just can't fathom that all we must do is believe within our hearts and confess with our mouths that the Lord God sent Jesus, His only Son to walk this earth, and die as the Ultimate Lamb of sacrifice for our sins...the WORLD'S sins. I am greatful for that today and I hope that we all can find peace in the simplicity of our Savior's gift of salvation. Besides, I don't even have to change me...He does that too!!!!! Hallelujah to the Lamb that was slain... My Jesus, My Savior Lord there is none like You All of my days I want to praise the wonders of Your Mighty Love My Comfort My Shelter Tower of Refuge and Strength Let every breath, All that I am never cease to worship You I pray His blessings upon us all...In His love, in His service, Shontay (Message edited by Taybie on September 13, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 775 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bill, I will second what Patria said. If scripture is not your final authority, then truth becomes relative. What Colleen said is absolutely correct. God will save everyone He intended to save. There are no lost causes in His salvation program. My authority for making this claim is found in John 6, where Jesus makes it abundantly clear "All that the Father gives me will come to me", and "no man can come to me unless the Father draws him" "I will lose none that the Father gives me, I will raise him up at the last day. Bill, that is exciting news! I am glad you mentioned the Muslim problem because that is where God is manifesting His electing grace so clearly. Do you realize that according to Ravi Zacharias 90% of all Muslims that he knows that have come to Christ were brought to Him because Christ made Himself known in a vision. In the hospital where I work, I just met a former Muslim who is now an evangelical Christian. She says there are many Muslims in Iran etc. who are true Christians, but don't express it openly because of the persecution. Bill, we serve a God who saves, not an impotent God who is just begging man to help save himself. He saves to the uttermost from every tribe, language, and culture. Praise God indeed. Soli Deo Gloria Stan |
