| Author | Message | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mr. Fischer, Interesting points. I was not aware that abortion is an official option. I'll go to adventist.org and do some research. As to point number five, the Trans-European Division is the only one that has actually shrunk in membership. I've heard this decline attributed to the heavy secularism of Europe. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 359 Registered: 2-2002  |
Javagirl....would you e-mail me again? Sorry guys, didn't want to start a new thread, and thought "coffee" was a good one to contact "javagirl!" | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 |
Derrell I tried to post this a minute ago and didn't work so... here it goes again. I believe that abortion is a.o.k. in adventist hopitals. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 965 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dennis, Very interesting! I don't think I had ever heard about point #1 before. Regarding point #2, I also don't think Adventists wash their clothes and are "unclean" until evening, if they pick up and bury their dead cat, dog, etc. (This even applies to clean animals which die!) They also don't keep the last part of Leviticus 11 about unclean "clean" foods, unclean liquids, and unclean vessels, ovens, stoves, seed, etc. How can they teach that parts of Leviticus 11 are binding and parts are not???!! Especially when at the end of the chapter it says that the whole chapter is ONE law: "This is the law regarding the animal and the bird, and every living thing that moves in the waters and everything that swarms on the earth, to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean, and between the edible creature and the creature which is not to be eaten." (Leviticus 11:46-47 NASB.) Also, SDAs contradict the "unclean meats law" they supposedly believe is binding: The Law says you can eat clean animals--SDAs say you can't eat clean animals! Regarding point #5, if they can't work on Sundays they might even have to take 3 days off of work! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2518 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, very interesting and astute observations. Thank you, again, for making us think! Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 245 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dennis,I was raised believing that you were not accountable until you were around 12 years of age. The 12 years came from when Jesus seperated from His parents in the temple. The problem I had was one Adventist parent and one "non-Adventist". Could half get me in? It cracks me up how the observance of sabbath is not even done according to the OT instructions. We have people locally that think its OK to take the turnpike if you have a prepaid pass card on sabbath, but not if you have to throw 35 cents in the unattended basket.---Go figure | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1848 Registered: 3-2004  |
No. 1 I have never heard of proxy salvation until I left the SDA church. It is not Biblical. No.2 If an SDA is going to be consistent, then leave pigs alone, dead and alive. But, then, how many are consistent??? No.3 Personally, I believe same sex marriages are not Biblical. I work with a homosexual man, who claims to be a Christian. I just pray for him. No.4 I used to believe abortion was okay, now I do not. No.5 Sabbath in those northern countries is a problem with sabbatarians. I do not blame people for not wanting to take it on. They have jobs and families to care for and in my mind, God does not want us neglecting our families. Just my thoughts. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 456 Registered: 4-2000  |
ANOTHER ETHICAL DILEMMA: Partial Redemptive Transfer About a week ago, there was a large, expensive wedding at the College View SDA church here in Lincoln, Nebraska. The couple had a former senior pastor officiate at the wedding ceremony. This former senior pastor lost his ministerial credentials several years ago due to cheating on his wife with a female SDA Bible instructor. Since he was not legally authorized to conduct a wedding (not having current credentials), a retired minister did the legal work for him to authenticate the vows. This is the first time I have ever heard of such an unusual practice in Adventism. What a sad example to the newly-wed couple! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1849 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, I agree with you about it being a sad example to the newly wed couple. But, SDAs have done shady things since the church began, so why stop now? God is so awesome. This must make Him sad. Diana | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2005 |
You are right - SDAs have done shady things since the church began - you would have to be a non-SDA to not do shady things <Grin>. I mean really - are we bashing SDA's or holding up Jesus? "Whatsoever things are lovely. . ." Bill | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 360 Registered: 2-2002 |
I know it's frustrating at times, but this website is designed as a support for formers, and often a part of our journey is venting over that which deceived us for so long. My opinion only, and I do not speak for anyone else on the forum. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2005 |
Bill, I often feel the same way. I fall under the 2nd group of people this forum is intended for "those Seventh-day Adventists who are seriously studying the validity of their beliefs," as stated in the introduction. I usually quit reading when I see a thread going a certain direction. This thread was about coffee tho...lol. I certainly make fun of myself and my history at times as well. I do, however, come here for serious study and a supportive atmosphere for questioning. Most times I find that, so I come back. THe most frustrating is when someone posts a serious thought, and the response is, "there is another proof of the cult of SDA'. The original comment is not responded to! Cult is such an imflammatory word. Even when justified by certain definitions..The average person imagines spaceships and castrations and polygamy and incest, weapons, and people held hostage... Interestingly 3 of the 4 "non-denominational" chuches I have vistied readily fall under the cult definitions used here! The shady stuff is everywhere. One "non-denominational" church was Baptist! One required speaking in tongues as proof of salvation. One called the congregates liars for joining the church, and ignoring the baptismal vow to pay tithe to the local church!! Another used the word "obedient" in almost every sentence. Made me want to throw up...although my heart desires obedience, the word is loaded for me....The search is painful at times.... (Carol, your chuch is the exception so far) I would also venture to say that some SDA prayer posts are more active than this one! Especially the answered prayer part! No reported answered prayers since Aug 22! Okay, I said my piece...those who know me know that I usually do... On the plus side, I have recieved a lot of support here. I am grateful for those who pray, and email, and respond with thoughtful and carefully researched responses. I came here looking for answers about the sabbath, and found so much more! Ill probably be a "former" soon, which was not my original intent. Im also thankful to the administrators of this site. What a ministry you provide. I have been blessed. Father God, thank you for this ministry and for each person here, and I ask your grace and peace to be evident in us as we serve you. Amen JavaGirl 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for your considered reply - I have been an Adventist for a long time (my entire life). I know lots of wonderful people in that religion. I also am torn - the total stupidity that I see in some of the behaviors absolutely slays me sometimes. But then I see it in other churches and other places and realize the SDAs don't have a lock on irrational craziness. For example - I am currently working with a group of people that want to start a new church - they all say we should pray - well - I am not against praying but we have prayed for two years now - when things look like they are going good we have someone in the group that says that the Lord is leading - when things are going poorly they say that the devil is working against us - well - I say that this is craziness - when things are not going well, how do you know that the Lord is not trying to tell you to do something else? Javagirl - I am no longer an SDA even though my name is on the books - I am still a christian but MUCH of Christianity is self serving and poorly done - we often "do church" or "religion" but fail "humanly". I guess that in reading many of the posts here I see the finger pointing about "SDA's" as if we or those of us who now "see the light" are better or better off - when we need grace just as much. I have also received support from this forum - just in reading the common things that ring bells with me and I have appreciated it - I just think that we will be better off in "supporting" formers and others that visit here if we don't tear down fellow Christians but indeed - SUPPORT. Thanks for listening. Bill | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1850 Registered: 3-2004 |
As Carol_2 says in her remarks above, we come here to vent. I can honestly say, I did not know any of the shady things SDAs do until I decided not to rejoin the church 1 & 1/2 years ago. I do not like SDA bashing or any other bashing, but I do need to vent once in a while. It in no way does it mean I do not love/like my SDA brethren. I just do not like what the SDA church teaches as it is not Christ centered or Biblical. I also come here for support, which I have received. I also remember that as humans, we are not perfect and we will act as humans, more times than I care to count. So if I offended you, I do apologize. What I have noticed in reading the threads is that we vent and we praise God for leading us out of adventism. Each of us, including me, is in a learning process. God is teaching us what He wants from us as a child of God. Our learning curves are individual and God understands that. Each of us needs a place to vent about the way we were brought up in adventism and this is the place where we can feel safe to do that. I realize that there are many who lurk to see what is said here and if they read a lot of the posts, they will see the venting and the praising God. It is not all just SDA "bashing". As for me, I am so thankful God gently pulled me out of adventism and placed me in a place where I can learn and have learned the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The writers on FAF confirmed what the Holy Spirit had taught me and it was confirmed by the church God led me to. I pray for all of the people here on the FAF and for all SDAs. God has so much He wants to teach us, especially the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is all we need. I am in awe of God and what He has done for me. He is AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis: I have always had the knowledge...acquired through my DNA I think, that if one parent is saved, then the children are saved...until 12 years old which is considered the age of accountability. I think Violet posted that last part. In studying out of Adventism, I learned about the Shut-Door doctrine that was taught by Ellen White and the other leaders of the early SDA church and confirmed by her in vision. This was the teaching that evolved into the Investigative Judgment. Why did it evolve? Because of the very first documented false prophecies of EGW regarding the second coming of Christ. The Door of salvation could hardly be shut to infants that were being born to the early SDA believers. I have come to believe that this subtle heretical teaching of the age of accountability and of a child being saved by a believing parent comes directly to us through the years from that early "crack" in the Shut Door doctrine. Sincerely, Patria | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1052 Registered: 7-2003  |
Javagirl and Bill, Thanks for sharing your heart on this topic. I'm usually odd "man" out on this one because I have never been adventist, and have only been involved with an adventist because someone lied to me for a long time. By the time I discovered the truth, walking away was complex. Everyone's experiences are different and how people deal with the clear deception that exists within adventism is an individual thing. You'll find on other posts that many find leaving adventism as a grief process. And a natural part of any grief process is anger. A lot of times what I feel is not very pretty, but I think I'm safe to say things here that may not be a constant feeling, but is at the particular time I said it. I've never been consider "part of" adventism, and not a single SDA I've met has ever treated me as an equal Christian. The SDA I'm closest to tells me I don't really love God because I don't keep the sabbath. How is one supposed to take such attacks (unless it's a compliment??)? Just two or three weeks ago, he started in again, completely unprovoked as I've learned to say very little in his presence. For 2 hours more or less, I sat and listened to how I don't study the Bible, blah blah blah. But I read some people, like those posts above, criticizing my comments and very real sentiments and emotions towards a religion that is ultimately going to try to convince my son he can't go to church with his mom if he wants to go to heaven, and he shouldn't eat what she feeds him either. In all fairness, the person who regularly attacks me, I have no clue if he is a legitimate Christian or just an adventist. He certainly goes to church on Saturday and he is vegetarian, but he wants nothing to do with non-SDAs, even if they're Christians. I wonder if you've ever encouraged SDAs to see "us" non-SDAs and former SDAs as equal Christians? I don't mean to offend you, I am very defensive because of the threat I feel towards my family. To me, it's like letting a child predator in.... Just like my son's father was too superior to go to church with me, just like he would expect me to fix two separate dinners if I was going to prepare something with meat ... I know he will do his best to take my son away from me when the time comes and he's old enough to understand. My older son fears if anything ever happened to me, that my younger son's father would never allow him to see his brother again. Now what do you do with those real fears of a 12-year-old? As far as praying, I pray for people on here regularly. And I would say that many of our prayer requests are not posted simply on the prayer topics. It seems somewhat of a poor measure to say how much we are or are not praying based upon one topic thread. There are a couple of regular prayer times where we pray FOR SDAs, not to leave the church per se, but to know the gospel and reveal the truth of Christ. IF any SDA every prays for me, I'm sure it's that I'll discover the truth of the sabbath and become SDA. I realize it's hard to judge all SDAs based upon the dozen or two I've encountered through the past six years, but I know when I had to give my daughter away to foster care, my SDA "boyfriend" couldn't be there with me because it was on the "sabbath". When my grandfather died, he couldn't be there either. When his cat was dying, I asked him what he wanted me to do, I'd be there (and I hate cats). When I was pregnant with our son, I was put on bedrest because I went into labor 2 months early. My church brought dinner 3-4 times per week, with enough for the whole week. Not a single SDA offered to bring anything. Do we really want to do a tit for tat on who is "acting" more Christian by individual observation or experiences? Yes, we all need grace equally, but that doesn't make us robots to our experiences and emotions and the FACT that adventists create a wall between themselves and us "Sundaykeepers" (talk about an inflammatory term...it's their term, not mine...should we forget apostate, babylon, etc?). I think it's great they've been good to you, but perhaps you'd feel different if your path had been different. Not trying to offend, just offering a perspective you surely haven't lived. Violet, since you were raised with split parents, how did they do religious training...and meals? Did you feel a tug of war over you? | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 658 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Melissa, You have been a window of clarifying information for me and I thank you for that. I grew up hearing phrases like "non-Adventist," and "Sundaykeepers." Before reading your response to the terms I had no reconning of the inflammatory aspects of those particular types of "name-calling." It truly is just like name-calling in a school yard. I have now lived on both sides of those names. I'm now called a former, a backslider, and am begged to "come back to the truth." It's not pretty when this side of preconceived notions is clearly seen. That doesn't change my love for family and friends. Some are willing to grant me "religious freedom," but still look at me with hurting eyes, etc. I've learned to live with it. I'm also fortunate to have friends who accept me the way I am (I know they are praying for me, as I am for them, but neither of us burdens the other with that information). I am so grateful that I am not in a tug-of-war over a child or children. The religious tug-of-war is so difficult because it has aspects of eternity woven into it. I experience you as a loving, Christian woman, and cannot imagine how anyone would see you as anything other than that. I also know that my own mother viewed one of her sister's as being lost because she gave up being SDA and adopted some of "the practices of the world." I'd had very little contact with my aunt until I became an adult, and began visiting her on my own. My aunt became an alcoholic, but even as an alcoholic she loved Jesus very much. It took me a few years of exposure (and maturation) to come to that realization. The alcoholism was nothing more than an illness, and the only person it ever hurt was my aunt. My mother died believing that her sister was going to be lost because she had given up on the religion of her youth. I try to envision the surprise of my mother when she passed, first the realization that her consciousness went on, and second finding her dear sister to be on her welcoming committee. That is the way I see it, anyway. We are so close to conclusion here in earth's final hour, and we really don't have a whole lot of reason to judge one-another. We should be discerning, but not judgmental. I'm sorry you are being so poorly treated by the father of your child. I also know the mindset that drives him, and how he believes he is right and therefore has the right to be so unfeeling. I'm grateful to hear from you, and reading your posts, I believe, has helped me expand my awareness, and soften my approach to the people who are judging me. I pray that God will continue to be with you, and that he will speak to the heart of the man who has so deeply hurt you. All you can do is be a good mom, training your son to have warmth and love in his heart. I truly pray that you will have the greater effect on his life and its outcome. Belva | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2519 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, again thank you for your honesty and vulnerability. I am 100% convinced, based on my own experience of knowing my thoughts BEFORE I left and after, that until a person becomes deeply enough convinced that the foundations of Adventism are untenable and leaves in order to make one's practice match his belief, he will perceive our observations as negative and "bashing". I do not believe it's possible for a person actually to see Adventism fully unless one has some distance from it. It can take months or years to arrive at the distance that gives persepctive to the church. I agree, Bill, that heresy abounds (unfortuantely) in many Christian churches. The thing that makes Adventism more problematic than many of those, however, is that its foundation is unbiblical. While heresy has crept into many churches, they still have their foundations in the gospel of Jesus and His completed work. Adventism has its roots in another gospel and is anchored by a false prophet. Those two facts place it in a different category from "regular" Christian churches. And those two facts created certain blind spots that Adventists cannot see through unless they walk away. I do not say this with rancor. I say it from personal experience. I well remember my feelings of discomfort AFTER I left when a friend first called SDAism a cult to me. I completely disagreed. Within a year, and some distance, however, I also saw it that way. Adventism was my identity. Who wants to call one's identity "cult member"? But Jesus gradually taught me that my identity is Him. It's OK if my past was murky and cultic. My present is not; and Jesus has not wasted my years as an Adventist. He has redeemed them, and today I praise Him for allowing me to be steeped in its cultic doctrines and practices. Because of that experience, I understand the new covenant more deeply and gratefully than I could have otherwise. God is so good! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 768 Registered: 3-2005 |
Javagirl, I appreciate your thoughts regarding the word cult. I find it interesting that when you have visited other churches, you find the same "cult-like" tendencies. The fact is Adventism is not the only false system out there. The spirit of Adventism is really the spirit of "fundamentalism", or works-righteousness that is not unique to Adventism. I agree with you that the word cult is probably a poor term. I think a better classification system relates to what a particular group uses as their authority. Is the Bible alone the final authority, or do they have some extra-biblical authority? Adventism is a false gospel because Ellen White is really their final authority. Catholicism is also another gospel because the Pope and the Vatican are the final authority over scripture alone. Mormonism has Joseph Smith. JWs have Charles Russell. Christian Science has Mary Baker Eddy. Much of Pentecostalism puts their tongues and visions in authority over the Bible. Fundamentalism puts many man-made rules and regulations over the Bible. Somehow these people think they need to add rules that the Bible doesn't think is necessary. The common thread of all these false systems are the Bible PLUS something else, as well as fallen human nature's tendency to always add works to what should be grace alone. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 225 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Just a little while ago I was speaking with someone about the tendency of all false systems to resemble each other even when superficially they appear diametrically opposed. I'm reminded of the remark I once read that the devil isn't very creative. He keeps finding ways to make people fall for the same old lies - anything but Jesus Alone! On the other hand Reality is One also, but so much bigger than our minds can grasp that we often have difficulty fitting the peices we HAVE glimpsed together coherently. |
