| Author | Message | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2005 |
Dear all I am so amazed that a question about serving coffee or not can be a totally heartbreaking questions for Adventists. They rather leave church than participate in serving a cup of coffee in church. Or my own reaction - it could be the question pushing me over the edge to leave adventism (among others...) This is really a miniour question, but how can it be such a big issue for adventists? How precise is EGW about coffedrinking and do she condemn coffedringing as a negative, even sinful habit? Please - do'nt take to much time digging into this, but it would be very helpful if you can help findings the EGW-quotations that apperantly leads adventists to react so strongly. Jesus is Lord Bless /D | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 467 Registered: 6-2002 |
Here are a couple of quick quotes: Tea is poisonous to the system . . . The influence of coffee is in a degree the same as tea, but the effect upon the system is still worse. Its influence is exciting, and just in the degree that it elevates above par, it will exhaust and bring prostration below par. Tea and coffee drinkers carry the marks upon their faces. The skin becomes sallow, and assumes a lifeless appearance. The glow of health is not seen upon the countenance. {CD 421.1} It is a most forcible warning against the use of such stimulants and narcotics as tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and morphine. These indulgences may well be classed among the lusts that exert a pernicious influence upon moral character. The earlier these hurtful habits are formed, the more firmly will they hold their victim in slavery to lust, and the more certainly will they lower the standard of spirituality. {RH, January 25, 1881 par. 24} If you go to www.ellenwhite.com (the white estate web site), you can search her writings for coffee and you will find many quotes about the sinfulness of coffee. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 948 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dinolf, yes EGW did condemn coffee drinking as a sin! Here are a few quotes from Ellen G. White's writings:
Of course, those last two quotes go directly against what the Bible says in Colossians 2--that it's the false prophets having visions who teach people to "touch not, taste not, handle not"!! Jeremy | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thanks for comments. The quote below even states that coffee/tea-drinkers can not appreciate the value of spiritual things. That means that according to EGW my spiritual experience can't be trusted if I stands under the influence of coffee. I can feel the distrust from the "EGWarians" making that conclusion :-( Well - in practice my only hope stands to my Saviour, and my spritual experience tells me that His grace is good even for me. No one can take that away from me - or any other coffeedrinker... God Bless /D Quote: "Tea and coffee are stimulating. Their effects are similar to those of tobacco; but they affect in a less degree. Those who use these slow poisons, like the tobacco user, think they can not live without them, because they feel so very badly, when they do not have these idols. Why they suffer when they discontinue the use of these stimulants, is because they have been breaking down nature in her work of preserving the entire system in harmony and in health. They will be troubled with dizziness, headache, numbness, nervousness, and irritability. They feel as though they should go all to pieces, and some have not courage to persevere in abstaining from them till abused nature recovers, but again resort to the use of the same hurtful things. They do not give nature time to recover the injury they have done her, but for present relief return to these hurtful indulgences. Nature is continually growing weaker, and less capable of recovering. But if they will be determined in their efforts to persevere and overcome, abused nature will soon again rally, and perform her work wisely and well without these stimulants. The whole system, under the influence of these stimulants often becomes intoxicated. And to just that degree that the nervous system is excited by false stimulants, will be the prostration which will follow after the influence of the exciting cause has abated. This prostration may in time be overcome by abstaining from the use of those things which created such a condition in the system. Those who indulge a perverted appetite, do it to the injury of health and intellect. They can not appreciate the value of spiritual things. Their sensibilities are blunted, and sin does not appear very sinful, and truth is not regarded of greater value than earthly treasure." F. of F.--Vol. 2, pp. 128-129 | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 648 Registered: 7-2004 |
Definitely Dinolf. You did see the comment on another thread here that coffee may be the single most beneficial source of antioxidants on planet earth. Too bad Mrs. W. isn't around to find out about that. All her talk about sallow complexions and such really can't hold a lot of water around that sort of information. I know that when Jesus sat down to the table to eat with publicans he also probably sipped the wine they served. In modern times I feel confident he would have shared a cup of coffee with us. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 740 Registered: 3-2005 |
And now we have many objective scientific medical studies proving that coffee, tea, beer, and wine are good for you in moderation. Just drink every beverage EGW tells you not to drink in moderation and you will have better health according to the bulk of evidence. Stan | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2001 |
My husband had surgery this summer and when the surgeon asked if he drank, he said yes, wine a glass at night or so. The surgeon told him to keep on the wine was good for his heart. There was no question in this MD's mind. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 191 Registered: 6-2001  |
OK, here's a question from the devil's advocate. It is known that even drinking a moderate amount of wine during pregnancy can place your child on the spectrum of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, why doesn't the Bible say something about pregnant women not drinking wine? Was the wine back then much lower in alcohol content? "Spirit"ually, Hannah | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 949 Registered: 10-2004 |
Answer: The Bible is not a health textbook.  Ellen G. White, however, actually wrote that pregnant women SHOULD drink wine!!!
This is one of the most absolutely astounding quotes ever written by EGW! Notice how she just totally throws out all of her "health reform" and says that this pregnant woman should have had just about everything she ever condemned--milk and sugar, white bread with yeast, cake, pudding, and even wine and meat!!! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 05, 2005) | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1034 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hannah, I don't think the alcohol of today is remotely related to what it was 2000 years ago, but that dismisses God's omnipotence to say "he didn't know" what we would be seeing today. I'm curious about the statistics of FAS in countries like France where wine seems as common as water. It would seem if FAS is really caused by the occasional glass of wine, then there are European countries that would have a huge problem, I would think. Maybe it's a place to test that premise. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 241 Registered: 2-2001 |
Several years ago I e-mailed an Adventist pastor in Europe, and posed the question of wine and his culture. Needless to say he never responded. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2001 |
Regarding the fetal alcohol syndrom. I worked in a neonatal intinsive care unit for four years back in the 80s. At that time they did not know at what point FAS would take hold therefore they advised total abstinance. It was a "its not worth the risk of the child and my malpractice insurance". I know I had an occational glass of wine with my youngest, she is 13 and was identifed as a gifted child from one of the best school districts in our state. You could say the same thing about peanut butter. Your kid may never have and allergic reastion and die, so why risk it. I think so many people today are so protective of their children they do not function well. Parents fighting at kids ball games etc. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 950 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is an article about FAS and drinking: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/FetalAlcoholSyndrome.html It looks like drinking in moderation does not cause FAS. Jeremy | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 622 Registered: 1-2003 |
I drank occassionally with 3 of my 5 children. The two I never touched a drop with seem to have more emotional problems than the other 3...not bad ones, but they are pretty uptight kids. The youngest is probably my most gifted child and I drank a couple of glasses of wine a week with him. If you notice, "strong drink" and wine are separate catagories in the bible. Perhaps they had grain alcohol, etc. back then. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 651 Registered: 7-2004 |
I cannot substantiate this, but from what I've heard the greatest problems come from hard alcohol and beer. Beer was, in ancient times, considered a man's drink, and most patriarchal societies dictated what a woman could or could not touch. We have to remember that the Biblical societies were heavily patriarchal. That means that what is mentioned in scripture, unless there is specific reference to a particular practice applying to women, is held exclusively for the men. I'm not in favor of heavily patriarchal practices, I'm just stating an observation of my understanding of practices then. Even in NT times, though it was argued against by Paul, women were merely the property of men. If a man wished to share his beer or wine (by the way, table wine was a softer drink because it was a half/half combination of wine and water) then his wife could have those drinks. Otherwise she could only bring the drink to her husband. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 745 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Thanks for sharing that article. I am not an Obstetrician, but I believe the FAS is a function of the malnutrition that usually accompanies excessive ETOH consumption. Still it is better to abstain for the period of pregnancy, but the hard scientific explanation for recommending total abstinence is lacking. Belva, I have heard fundamentalist preachers rationalize that Paul's advice to Timothy was about wine that was diluted with water. Do you know where to find the evidence that this is true? When Jesus made wine that the wine steward said was better than any other wine, I have a hard time believing that it was diluted with water. Because this would make the wine taste flat. Also the chemistry of winemaking hasn't changed that I know of. If anyone has doubts about how strong Biblical wine was, then check out the story in Genesis of Noah and what the wine did to him. Those who are Hebrew scholars say that Noah did more in that tent than just uncover himself. But I will spare the graphic details. There are so many fundamentalist teachers out there trying to make excuses for what the Bible so plainly teaches, and that is that wine is a legitimate gift from God to gladden the hearts of men. Stan | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 624 Registered: 1-2003 |
Here, Here, Stan!!!! I agree. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 954 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pheeki, yes scholars believe that the "strong drink" mentioned in the Bible was an alcoholic grain beverage (beer). Even the SDA Biblical Research Institute admits this! And here is what Strong's concordance says about the Hebrew word for "strong drink":
And here is what the Bible says about "strong drink":
This is the Biblical tithing system. Why don't SDAs (and other churches) practice tithing according to the Bible's instructions?! They were supposed to consume meat and alcohol!! The word for wine in verse 26 (different Hebrew word than in verse 23) means fermented wine! This is the Hebrew word for wine that is used most often in the OT. Strong's concordance says:
Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 454 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, Interestingly, Noah is not recorded as having fathered additional offspring after his drunken episode in the tent. Some Bible scholars speculate that Ham may have crushed his father's testicles in order to prevent any further dilution of the family inheritance. Genesis 9:24 tells us that Noah was fully aware of what Ham had done to him after awaking from his drunkenness [visual observation associated with intense pain would make the matter very clear]. Furthermore, such a horrible act on the part of Ham would explain Noah's immediate curse upon him. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1040 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess the only reason I think the wine alcohol content might be different is the technology and aging that goes into wine these days. Sure seems to be quite an ordeal for no difference (temperatures and timings and aging, etc.). But I'm not a wine drinker, so my ignoarance is hanging out again. And hence, Noah's story has always left me wondering...how could he make wine that fast. I thought it had to "age" to get its fermentation. ?? I only know the Bible says not to be drunk! |
