| Author | Message | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2004 |
Every week the Rutland SDA Church in Kelowna, BC on its "Happy Sabbath and Welcome" page has a couple of Ellen White gems to lift the spirits of those attending that day. This weeks Quotes "It is the sophistry of Satan that the death of Christ brought in grace to take the place of the law. The death of Jesus did not change or annul, or lessen, in the slightest degree, the law of the Ten Commandments. That precious grace, offered to man through a Saviour's blood, establishes the law of God. Since the fall of man, God's moral government and His grace are inseparable. They go hand in hand through all dispensations.(FL 89). " The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments." 6BC 1072. If any of you could help me with some Biblical quotes to refute this nonsense I would appreciate it. Or you can Fax a response directly To Pastor Brian Hawes at 250-861-4872. He is a kind and gentle man and I don't think he chooses the quotes, but the buck stops with him. | ||
| Dennisrainwater Registered user Username: Dennisrainwater Post Number: 122 Registered: 8-2000 |
I thought it was Ellen's writings that were the "Spirit of Sophistry"... ;-) | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2004 |
Randy, I am amazed at what people put forth as encouraging in the Adventist church. People are so enamoured with the idea of finding a quote about something that is relevant (their belief) that they don't take the time to understand what it says. In this case, the first quotes really explains why Adventists don't want you to study the NT by yourself without the "clarifying" works of EGW. If people would look at what she says without the thought that she is a prophet, I think they would drop her like a hot potatoe. | ||
| Abundantrest Registered user Username: Abundantrest Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2005 |
Randy, Mt. 5:17 is one of Adventist's favorite passages to "prove" that Jesus did not do anything with the law. The flaw in this is obvious if the entire passage is read in context. First, Christ indicates that He came to fulfill. In Strong's, this means to make replete or to satisfy. Now, I was unsure what "replete" meant, so I looked it up. Webster's definse replete as completely filled, full. Ah ... he fulfilled, completely, all the requirements of the law for us!!! Awesome ... One other scripture to note is Colossians 2:16-17. First, note that the word "days" at the end of verse 16 is NOT actually in the greek text! And, we can note that the word Sabbath comes from Sabbaton, which has a Hebrew origin, because it is the same word used for the weekly day of rest - the Sabbath! Now, according to this passage, these ceremonies and observances (the law) are a shadow (the dark part we can never see clearly ... only an outline of something) of things to come, BUT the body (the thing that casts the shadow, the substance of which we are looking for) is of Christ! So, in essence, all of these things were simply in place to point to Christ! Galatians 3:24-25 tells us that the purpose of the Law was to bring us to Christ so we could be justified by faith (for no one is justified by works, right?); and that once we have found Him, we are no longer under (or in need of) that schoolmaster. Consider this: why do we go to school? To learn something. Once we learn it, do we still have to continue to go through the same classes over and over? No! Once we realize our total inability to keep the law, we then MUST rely on Christ's righteousness for our justification! Nothing else matters ... and it is at that point that our "need" for the law as a reflection of God's standards dissappers ... There are many, many more scriptures that show Christ did something with the law ... but these are the ones that come to mind as I am writing. One final note, as another way to point out the fallacy of the statement by EGW, where is there any distinction made (old or new testament) that clearly delineates between the "moral" law and the "ceremonial" law. I am one of those who is under the thought process that there is none ... at least I cannot find it. God Bless! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2477 Registered: 12-2003  |
Randy, another powerful text is Hebrews 7:11-18--also 8:7-13. Hebrews 7:12 says, "For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." Belva is right; NOWHERE does Scripture (or Jewish tradition, for that matter) separate the law into "moral" and "ceremonial". The law is a unity (see McGregor Wright's article in the last Proclamation!), and the 10 are merely part of the The Law. In fact, they are considered the words of the covenant. Most Adventists don't even know the Ellen quotes you shared above, but the membership is still powerfully bound by the false ideas her "inspired" counsels bequeathed to the church. This situation is an example of why I believe that unless a person really embraces the idea that she is a false prophet, they are still claimed by the religion to some degree. You cannot explain away her statements which contradict the gospel and legitimately honor her as a well-intentioned woman. Paul would have denounced her teachings as he denounced the gnostic heresies in the early church. It would have been one thing had she merely given her commentary on the meaning of Bible passages. But she clearly and repeatedly claimed God showed her these things, and she clearly said one had to embrace all of her writings or none of them. She clearly said that discounting her writings would be the last great deception. Because of her own claims, we have to call her a false prophet. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 712 Registered: 3-2005 |
Right Colleen, as long as Adventism claims EGW as an AUTHORITY over the Bible alone, then Adventism is a false or another gospel. Just like Catholicism anathematises the gospel by putting papal authority over the Bible in denying justification by faith alone, so Adventism does exactly the same thing by putting EGW's authority over the Bible. Stan | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2004 |
Randy how long have you lived in Rutland? I grew up there for 10 years and still have relatives that live there. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank-you all for your thoughtful responses. I appreciate your time and help. Schasc, I have lived here for 19 years. It is still the most beautiful place in Canada. It is also an Adventist Mecca, so you will understand the challenges(and opportunities).Some of the finest Christians I know are Adventist.And some of the Adventists are the most dogmatic and legalistic people I know. It is quite a broad spectrum. Currently I attend Trinity Baptist.It is the most uplifting and positive church I have ever been a part of, even if I am still on the periphery. Peace to all, Randy | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Randy, Where did you go to school? I went to CUC in 1981 and then my parents moved away in 86 and I did not get back untill 1999.......wow it had really grown! My moms sister and husband still live there and used to go to Rutland but now go to Son something(?)(Beatrice and Marvin Dick). When I lived there I really wanted to attend the Rutland church cause that is where all the youth were. We attended Westbank and than Kelowna before I left for CUC. Those churches always seems more conservative to me, but I suppose there is all kinds in each church. Anyway hoping to get back there more often since my inlaws might be moving there in the next year or so.....Have you had alot of discussions with your former pastor? Just wondering how that has gone....I recognize the name from somewhere....anyway it is great to post with a fellow Kelownian! | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 251 Registered: 1-2003  |
Randy, I'm at least familiar with most of the SDA "Mecca's" in the USA but not in Canada. What makes it a Mecca for the SDA's of Canada. What big city is it close to?? Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Another_carol Registered user Username: Another_carol Post Number: 270 Registered: 12-2002 |
Not much time but this came to me: Romans 6:14 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Carol | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 942 Registered: 10-2004  |
Another one that goes along with that verse, to refute the first sentence of the first quote from EGW, is Galatians 5:4: "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (NASB.) 2 Corinthians 3 also helps refute these EGW quotes, as does Deuteronomy 4:13 and other passages in the OT which state that the Ten Words (NOT "commandments" in the Hebrew) are the words of the Sinaitic covenant, the tables of the Sinaitic covenant, and even ARE the old Sinaitic covenant itself. These are especially helpful in combination with the NT passages which say that the Old Sinaitic Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8), to be cast out (Galatians 4), etc. I find the last sentence from the EGW quotes interesting: "God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments." God requires obedience to ALL His commandments? Or merely only 10 (actually a few more than 10*) of them?? What about the other approximately 600 commandments??? *The Jews counted 613 commandments in the entire Law. In the Ten Words, they actually counted a few more than ten commandments (I don't remember the exact number). Jeremy | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2004 |
Schasc, Bea and Marvin are wonderful people.I know them quite well. I believe they attend the Son Valley Fellowship which is an outreach to former members and provides haven for those looking for a more contempory service. The other local SDA churches consider it the spon of Satan because of the music( drums, guitars, etc),informality and people are actually praising God. The Rutland church now has very few youth because it has constant generational friction, it DOES NOT meet their needs, and anything progressive is shot down. Richard,I call this an Adventist mecca for a number of reasons. Population of about 100,000 with a 12 grade academy(founded around 1911) Many families with 4-5 generations still living here. 7 Adventist churches within a 10 minute drive radius. Most splintered off of one of the others due to people not getting along. As you can imagine the School constituancy meetings resemble a cross between Survivor and the Shootout at the OK Corral. Another sign of a Adventist mecca/ghetto is that there are at least as many formers/non-attenders as there are attendees. Most often this group are the 3rd-4th generations who are well educated and don't go to any church. This group needs spiritual fulfillment but many have never even considered a church that meets on Sunday,due in part to the parents, and grandparents in the community who continue the Adventist(Sabbath) guilt trip. May God use us to help meet these challenges with a message of Christian liberty and freedom, Randy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 452 Registered: 4-2000  |
ARE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS REALLY ADVENTISTS? Adventist history abounds with precise time-setting events for the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, just how serious is the typical SDA today about the imminent return of Christ? First of all, they can totally relax any anticipation due to the final "death decree" on sabbatarians not even remotely on the horizon. Secondly and most importantly, contemporary Adventism has not achieved any resemblance to character perfection. Denominational scandals are at an all-time high. Both corporately and individually, they are painfully aware of their continued imperfection. Let's closely examine the impossible criteria that SDAs have set for themselves: "Christ is waiting with a longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church [meaning the SDA Church, of course] and when the character of Christ shall be PERFECTLY REPRODUCED in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own" (COL., page 69; Emphasis and comments mine). In short, according to their Ellenology, Jesus will NEVER return. Their recent vindication theory attached to the investigative judgment alibi requires a perfect, law-based religion. Their partnership salvation [meaning God helps them to save themselves) is not working--it never has nor ever will. Indeed, according to Ellen White's requirements, Jesus will NEVER return. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2497 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dennis, what excellent observations. You're right--none need to fear the Time of Trouble because, according to their own requirements, Jesus can't come in their (or their kids or grandkids...) lifetimes. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 733 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, I liked your use of the word "parnership salvation[meaning God helps them to save themselves]. I read a survey result where "born again" Christians by about 80-90% believe that the words "God helps those who help themselves" is in the Bible. There are really only two religions in the world. One religion says that "God helps those who help themselves", and the other religion says that "God helps those who can't help themselves". Adventism and much of popular religion today are in the camp that says God only enables man to help save himself. True Biblical Christianity believes in A God who saves to the uttermost sinners who can't possibly help themselves because of their lost condition. And this God leaves nothing to chance when it comes to salvation of sinners. We can be safe and secure in our salvation, because the Father willed it before the foundation of the world, and Jesus paid for and secured our salvation on Calvary, and then rose triumphantly from the grave that Sunday morning to insure our Justification. He then went into the Holiest and ever lives to make intercession for us. The Holy Spirit regenerates our dead spirits, and then sets His seal as a deposit and guarantees our salvation. The Triune God does all the work in securing our salvation. That is good news! Have a good holiday weekend everyone, Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1834 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dennis, I never thought of the IJ and the belief that we have to help ourselves in this way. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. According to all that, Jesus will never come. Thank you God for taking me out of all "that". Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 944 Registered: 10-2004 |
Right on, Dennis! Amen, Stan! Your description of salvation was very Biblical, yet amazingly SDAs deny every part!! That must mean that they are NOT a Christian church. What a good reminder for this Labor Day Weekend--that God does ALL the labor for our salvation.  Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 02, 2005) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2004  |
Actually, regarding the points Dennis made, SDA's have thought these through, but I'm not sure the explanation I've heard helps much. Years ago I often heard that when the Holy Spirit is poured out during the latter rain, that will finish everything up including helping people to finalize their perfection. However, if that's true, then why all the EGW quotes that put people in a frenzy trying to obtain a perfect character? More recently, about the time we were deciding to leave the SDA church about 1 1/2 years ago, we heard a sermon at our church where the pastor was contemplating what EGW could possibly have meant about "Christ's character being perfectly reproduced in us". I don't recall that he gave an answer, but I remember feeling sad at the time because the sermon should have been a wake-up call to SDA's that something's wrong with what EGW has to say, yet no one sees it. Instead, SDA's are always looking for rationalizations and ways to spiritualize her meaning. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 645 Registered: 7-2004 |
Brother did you ever say it, Raven. They strain out the gnat and swallow the camel as long as Ellen has told them to swallow the camel. Therefore they have rationalized away solid Biblical truth to make room for EGW teaching. So sad, so hard to get them to see, too. Belva |
