| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1000 Registered: 7-2003  |
Beautiful post, Jess. Poetic, rich, and seasoned with humor and wisdom. Chris | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 73 Registered: 1-2005 |
Phew! Thank you JWD for reminding all to look at the single most important kernal of truth - God's amazing Grace! The one thing that I have enjoyed the most about being free of adventism is the PEACE! God's essential truth is simple - SDA "truths" are complicated with many nuances and shades of interpretation. Once upon a time, I did relish those convoluted discussions about what the REAL intent of scripture or EGW was. But now that the veil has been lifted - I say - Just give me Jesus! (NOT lutherism, calvinism, sproulism or armenianism, ect. )  | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 526 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jess, WOW! I have printed your wisom, once again, to add to all the other beautiful insight God gives me through you. Don't go anywhere! We all need your voice here on FAF! You are a dear friend! Yea...Lindylou...good to "see" you, too! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 665 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lindylou, I agree with you about not giving allegiances to all those "isms" that you mentioned. But, I have to admit I get a little nervous when I hear people say, "let's not worry about doctrine, let's just talk about Jesus". I don't think that is what you mean, and maybe you would like to clarify. But Jesus and the apostles thought doctrine was very important! There is so much important truth that was handed down to us from Paul and the apostles, and then restated by the Reformers. So understanding what they taught is very important. But at the same time, we should not lose track in our doctrinal discussion of the fact that the Reformers taught that giving glory to God was the primary reason we are here. Thanks for your comments, Stan | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 365 Registered: 7-2000 |
JWD, I really liked and agree with your post. Doctrine is important---and Calvinism/Arminianism are both attempts to do the impossible, which is to describe the workings of God. I've been listening for several weeks now to a program on a local radio station which is the reading of two books. The first was 'Why I am not a Calvinist'. The second is 'Why I am not an Arminian'. It really struck me, as I was listening, that both sides have points that are right and points that I strongly disagree with. Both have texts that they agree wtih and others that they brush aside to maintain their view. I have too conclude that in their attempt to put God's workings in a comfortably defined box they have overlooked one key text. That text is in the Old Testament that says 'For My ways are not your ways'.... Which brings me back to New Covenant theology. I learned the basics of this viewpoint in the Church of Christ. The Stone-Campbell movement in the 1800's (which led to the formation of the Church of Christ and Church of Christ Christian) really emphasized the New Testament and a way of thinking that was neither Calvinist nor Arminian, neither Catholic nor Protestant. What I find interesting about New Covenant theology is that within this thinking is an acceptance of the types of paradoxes seen in the debate of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Yes, the Bible speaks of an election---but exactly what that means is largely speculation. What is clear, instead, is the command of Christ to go into all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And so, we go---whether to some forechosen elect or not is not an issue. Ditto with dispensationalism. NCT teachers agree that there is/was a dispensation of law and now we are in the dispensation of grace. But they base this on the clear texts of the Word and not based upon some philosophical bent that has to come to some conclusion--as would be the case with true 'dispensationalists' who ramble through the Bible finding one 'dispensation' after another. Anyway, that's my two cents worth.......... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2423 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thanks for sharing your insights, Loneviking. It's good to hear from you! And thank you, Jess, for your post above. I feel as if I'm in a similar "place". There's something about Stan's viewpoint that I relate to--and that's the astonishing new insight into reality that says GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER EVERYTHING. I cannot get over how finally seeing that God is GOD has changed not only the way I think but the way I live. My heart has so much more peace since I've discovered that amazing truth. And when I say that I see the Bible telling us to be responsible and to make choices, I am not taking that to mean that our self-generated choices have anything to do with our salvation. Our salvation is from God alone! I'm seeing that under the umbrella of God's sovereignty (not beside it but UNDER it) He gives us choices, and those choices have eternal consequences. I've thought sometimes that to people (such as many of us) who grew up feeling the burden of their own salvation, the doctrine of sovereign grace is so startling and freeing that we tend to identify with it more than with the idea of beng responsible with our own choices. After all, we spent so many years being either hypervigilant or else despairing that letting God be God is something we'll spend the rest of our lives learning to do! Similarly, people who grow up with a severe Calvinistic leaning, who see their salvation as a cosmic crap shoot, so to speak, and who never see a need to repent and be born again since their inclusion in the family of God is either a done deal or notóthese people likely receive the message of God's grace and call to repent to be the door to freedom from a cold, bloodless religion than prodcues stern self-righteousness or fatalism. So I emotionally relate to embracing sovereignty as my life-line. And I also see the Biblical paradox of human choices having eternal consequences as part of the picture. I know that God sovereignly chooses peopleóthink Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He also softens our hearts so we can surrender to Him. Praise God for the paradox of truth and for the certainty that we are one with Him! Wow--He has brought us into His divine paradox! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 621 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've been reading this line of discussion for some time, learning a lot, but afraid to join into such a learned discussion. Every time I hear people talking about predestination it makes me uncomfortable. I see God as existing inside and outside of all dimensions and all time, so when God said in Genesis that from birth, or was it before, that Jacob he loved and Esau he hated, I see it as God making a statement from his unique perspective. God knows all, past present and future, and he knew the choices that Esau would make that would demonstrate his unwillingness to cooperate with the plan of God. Does anyone else here see it that way. Predestination is perhaps better translated preordained, because God knows the choices we will make before we make them. Our choices still determine our standing with God, and so the Calvinist response as stated in your post, Colleen, might be robbing people of actually stepping up and making their decision. If they believe that solidly in predestination, then they do allow themselves to drift. Arminian response seems to be to try too hard. Somewhere in between the two is the truth. I prefer to see the sovereign right of God to choose, and he has already chosen to save all those who trust Jesus to fully save them. That is both simple and complex, but the magic word is "choose." God has been from the beginning fully willing to allow us to choose, but that doesn't mean he has to like the choice we make. Esau chose to live a life that didn't acknowledge God, so God, who lives in all time all of the time, had every right to say that he hated Esau since before he was born. It is sad that some people respond to these statements of scripture as though God is being arbitrary. The elect have been the elect since the foundation of the world, and God 'elects' to save those who choose to trust Jesus. I don't know any other way to say that. We have never been robbed of our right to choose based upon some theory called predestination. At least, that is the way I see it. Belva | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 76 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hey everyone who posted above: I feel very close to each one of you as I am typing this. I mean REALLY close in that mystical love-bond that few in this old world know anything about. Isn't it beautiful? Aren't you all relieved and happy that God did not make us all identical? How boring it would be if we all thought exactly alike - - all running on the same "model biocomputer motherboard," all nodding our heads in agreement or disagreement in concert. No one every saying even a single - "Huh?" We'd all stone that person immediately, no doubt. According to St. Paul, we too are ALL saints if our life is hid with Christ in God the Father. We are all ONE, in Christ. We are a little like individual bricks, each with it's own various colors, patterns of lights and darks, etc., but ALL part of one Building, and as such are not considered individual bricks but a whole building! ..... I won't touch on the possibility of a "block head" now and then! (Tee hee hee) What's funny is that I'm betting each one of us just had an image of someone we know or have identified as being a "block head." I just had a lot of personal frustrating time with one who is a friend of mine. LOL I don't find myself disagreeing with anyone or any of the posts you have made. Doctrine is vital. If there are no works - the result of our choices Colleen speaks of - we could not prove that we live by faith. We are to strive toward obedience; but the motive for such is to be prompted by love; love for Jesus, for the Father and the Holy Spirit - and don't forget the Guardians. But we can now relax, knowing that while NEVER able to make much progress, compared to God's holy requiement, we are now as much a child of the Father as is Jesus. We have been adopted into God's Family, covered with the blood of Jesus, imputed with his 100% holy, pure, perfect righteousness; and already sealed. We are bound to the Father's Heart with bindings of such unspeakable Love, we will, after 100,000 years - probably only scratch the surface in understanding it's purity, wonder and depth. And Paul says under the Spirit's prompting, that NOTHING - NO THING, animate or inanimate, visible or invisble, can EVER separate us from THAT LOVE! In our "Java and Jehovah" time this morning, Bonnie was reading John 14 and I was thinking of all the recent head scratching and brain stretching I've been doing in dealing with all that is involved in this Post Subject, and I was comparing my Christian life and experience, my knowledge, all the theology, teachings, memorizing, etc. with the relationship the disciples had with Jesus. Granted, it's not a truly balanced comparison. We're living in 2005. But spiritually I think we can always find some thread to keep us from wandering too far into the scholastic, intellectual field, that when we turn around we can't see Jesus; and that same thread to keep us connected, like the person in a blizzard leaving the house to go feed the animals in the barn with a rope tied around him; we can always find our roots, our Source, our Center. I hear us all agreeing, that as Stan said earlier, and my wife even reminded me a few days ago when I was discussing all these Reformation theologies and positions Christians hold today; it's "so simple that a child can receive it." ISN'T THAT SO GREAT? AREN'T YOU RELIEVED TO HEAR THAT? Especially for those of us who may have just a few "genes" of blockheadism inside us! LOL Personally, I can never get far from the transforming unity expressed and taught by our Lord in Jn 14, 15, 17. May we each sing his praises, either verbally on inside our hearts as we stand in "shock and awe" over the meaning, the awesome truth and meaning of Jn 15:16. "Move over, Mary. There's a bunch of us "Formers" who want to sit at Jesus feet too! Oh! and . . . "MARTHA! . . Be quiet! We're trying to listen here!" Love ya, Jess | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 766 Registered: 7-2000 |
I've always loved the Mary & Martha story...never being much of a "Martha" personality myself! Martha was "worried and upset about many things," Jesus said...then continued: "but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:42) Sitting at Jesus' feet, listening to what He says, and basking in His sovereign rule over everything does give me peace! grace, cindy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1794 Registered: 3-2004  |
I read these fantastic posts and wonder if I will ever get to the point where I can join in. But, today I can. I just want to say, make room for one more at Jesus feet, because I am sitting there. That gives me so much peace, because I am his child. God, you are awesome and I thank you for Jesus. Diana | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2005 |
Well, if Martha just sat and listened, who would have cooked dinner, washed the dishes and done the disciples' laundry?? I'm a Martha at heart - but since finding joy and peace in Jesus's rest, it has been much easier to find balance in life. Okay, when I said, "Just give me Jesus" - I wasn't trying to say that doctrine issues shouldn't be considered. But now that you mention it - If you were to boil things down to an essential list of doctrines - what would that list look like? Would we all agree? Should we all agree? As I have journeyed out of my legalism, I've realized that I grew up with my roots planted amongst many little pebbles of doctrine that never provided me a firm foundation. I have had to shake myself from all those little rocks and wrap my roots around ONE solid rock - Jesus. I have to believe that there is just a simple core belief that is the essential to my salvation. I understand that the Bible is full of admonitions for right living - and these doctrines can be discussed and hashed over because it is intellectually stimulating to us - and our inquisitive minds want to think we know what is "right" behavior. But even these are open to interpretation, aren't they? As soon as you start making a list of doctrines having to do with "right living" aren't you right back in the pot of legalism. It is one thing to have a personal belief as to what you believe God expects of you - but seems to me that as soon as you publish your "list" of right doing doctrines - you are right back where you started - in a variated form of SDA-ism. So the question again - are you talking about doctrines essential to salvation OR doctrines that are applied to how you live? I'd like to see your lists! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1796 Registered: 3-2004 |
God took away my list long ago and I cannot say when that was. The only thing on my list right now is to spend more time with God on a daily basis. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 628 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm inclined to agree with Diana. Maintaining my focus on Jesus is enough for me. I'm grateful to all of the intellectual information, but Jesus said that we must be trusting, like little children, not of all the fancy doctrines--but trusting him to have done what he said he would, and will do. Give me Jesus! Belva | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have become rather wary of doctrine as it is generally based on interpretation. Only Jesus' simple gospel can save. I view denominations as the ultimate invention of the devil for the purpose of leading people down deadend paths, and though most can agree on the very basics of salvation, differences in the more advanced doctrinal interpretation are the foundation for denominational walls. I am not saying that doctrines should be tossed out, simply that I view them the same as fire. They can be very enlightening, but WHEN they become too important (as happens far too often) the value of the simple Gospel becomes secondary, and its application to the individual is dependent on the application and interpretation of doctrine. Most of us know this because of where we come from, but even knowing on an intellectual level, it is like a fundamental part of human nature demands that we pursue, and adhere to some established doctrinal layout and make it our identity instead of Christ. Can anyone else identify with this? | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 775 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lindylou, I liked your word picture of the pebbles versus the ONE solid rock--JESUS! Derrell, I can identify with your thoughts... Realizing our "identity" IN CHRIST is most important! I do think "doctrine" is important in as far as our basic belief in the Cross of Christ...what it was for and what it accomplished. This is a core doctrine that makes all else come into place! For example, both my mother and I state a belief in JESUS for our salvation. Yet, she being a staunch Adventist, was in tears last week because of (another) discussion we had on the 7th-day Sabbath holiness not being a requirement for New Covenant Christians. This example is where a belief/adherence to the "doctrine" of the finality and supremacy of the Cross of Christ becomes clear...There must be an underlying doctrine of WHO JESUS IS that guides all our further beliefs! grace always, cindy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 668 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, there is a simple gospel of salvation that even a child can understand, as stated above on one of the URL's about Acts 16:30,31."What must I do to be saved" Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Itis that simple. No one on these theological threads has ever said that our salvation depends on our understanding of Luther's Works, or Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, or on R.C. Sprouls' interpretation of Paul. Once a person believes after receiving Salvation, then the process of Christian growth will start. Prayer and Bible study led by the Holy Spirit is most crucial. As Cindy said all doctrine must be Christ centered and Cross centered. As a Christian continues to grow in grace, then getting into the "meat" of the word is vitally important. Getting into the "meat" of the word is what our FAF Bible study in Redlands taught by Colleen is doing. We have been spending at least 6 months in Romans 9 alone doing what is called inductive Bible study, going deep into the Old Testament and also reviewing all the related material in the New Testament with regard to those passages in Rom. 9. (Diana visited our study, so she has an idea of what I am referring to.) As formere SDAs, all who are at different degrees of development in our theological journey, it is so wonderful to watch folks being exposed to the great doctrines of Election as taught by Paul, and re-iterated by Luther and Calvin. They express amazement at these truths that are so foreign to what we were taught in Adventism. And, of course, we don't agree on all points--even the 5 points! But as everyone struggles to understand a difficult book by Romans 9, we all have fellowship, and pray for each other. No theological system is being forced. We are just studying what the Bible actually says. Last night we had one of those truly exceptional studies where Colleen drew a diagram on the board relating the Trinity's unity in God's sovereign act of salvation. We then went over all the important texts related to God's love and God's approval such as Romans 8:30-34 where it says clearly that God chooses, predestines, justifies, and glorifies us--All in past tense! Ephesians 1:3-6 where it says that God chose us IN HIM to be holy; predestined us to be adopted as sons', and Ephesians 2:6 'God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus'. Think of how truths like these which are emphasized by Luther and Calvin contribute to our confidence and joy in living the Christian life! These are not just dead orthodox doctrines. These truths guarantee the certainty of our salvation and the fact that God is sovereign over all creation, and is in absolute control of everything in our lives! If you know that you were chosen long before the foundation of the world because the Father and the Son provided a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and Christ came to personally die for your sins because you were chosen to be redeemed, and the Holy Spirit, which raised Christ from the dead, actually raises our dead spirits to eternal life. How much did any of us contribute to our physical births, did we ask to be born? And since being born again is really being born from above, and if we were dead in our trespasses and sins, how are we in our natural dead state able to ask to be born? One of our Bible study participants was marveling at a current study on the topic of election being done by John MacArthur on the radio. Now, he doesn't always agree with everything John says, and neither should any of us. But the fact is, MacArthur is unusually gifted in bringing the truths of the gospel of grace, and that series blessed he and I this week in a special way. I believe God has given gifts to great Christian teachers and writers and to the reformers. We should study the Bible primarily, but we can be greatly blessed by those God has given these gifts. Jess, I cannot express myself nearly as gracefully as you can, but I am rejoicing tonight in the glorious gospel which has set us free. To God be the Glory, Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1803 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, to God be the Glory. I would really like to be there every Friday evening to join in the Bible study. But, I am not and I am just thankful, I am no longer SDA and the veil is gone. I am discovering things with God's help as I read and study on my own. I have a note book to write down what I have learned. The thing that really amazes me, is that the important issue of salvation is what all true Christians believe and that is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I say I learned it on my own, but the Holy Spirit taught me as I read. Then I started reading the sites by former SDAs and they all said the same thing. Then I started attending a church and studying the Bible there and they said the same thing. I, too, am rejoincing in the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ which has freed me. I cannot help but exclaim, God you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 237 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dear friends, I have just finished 3 marvelous days with a 1,000+ other Christians. It has been a time of worship, prayer, and teaching. I do not have the words to fully explain it all. Starting in the morning and going into the evening we had 8 hours of coming before God in prayer, sometimes on our faces before Him, sometimes in small groups lifting each other up before a God who is filled with justice andmercy, and willing to touch His children in wonderful and powerful ways. In each of the 3 sessions 45-60min was spend in worship and praise. There is something awesome seeing 1,000+ children of God lifting their hands in praise or down on their knees as they sing Holy, Holy, Holy before God. Two of the speakers (husband and wife) have a ministry in Africa where they care for 3,000 orphans and have planted 100's of churches. She said her plans were very simple, just plant a church every 5 miles. Nothing complicated or "seeker friendly" about it at all. Just show the people God's love and lead them to a risen Christ who died for them. They now have churches in I believe 7 countries. They have been stoned and she even had a price placed on her head by local leaders. Their faith is such a simple childlike faith in the awesome power of the God they serve. They see people on an almost daily basis regain their hearing and sight along with other wonderful acts of God. Through an interpeter a Chinese pastor spoke who has been imprisoned 5 times for his faith in China. He is a leader with the underground church cell movement and is considered the Billy Graham of China. The spread of Christianty is moving like a wildfire in China. Words can not express my feelings adequitely. I have prayed, laughed, and cried out before God for 3 days. I have seen people come to a realization of God's great love for them in new and powerful ways and what it means to rely on God and not on our own works or personal plans. The more I see the more I realize how little I "see" and what an awesome God we serve. I've just gone back and read what I wrote and again it is one of my posts that I'm not sure makes any sense but I've tried. I love each of you very much, even when I don't always agree. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 674 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Richard, it is good to see you back and thanks for sharing your wonderful experience. God is doing a sovereign work of grace in all lands and among all peoples. It is the 3rd world church that really sacrifices for the cause of Christ. We have it way too easy here in a land of freedom. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan it was just so awesome being in the prescence of so many people seeking more of God. We are not talking about being saved, I'm talking about wanting a deeper more personal relationship 24/7. It is not so hard to have an intellectual understanding of a God who we believe is personal and touches peoples lives. It is a whole different level to strip yourself of your preconceptions and say, "Lord Jesus take me now as I am and mold me and change me and use me.". It's a prayer not to be made casually because my experience is you pray for it you will probablly get it and it is often more life changing then we expect. Once I've asked God for something I need to be surrendered enough to listen and follow where he leads. Even during lunch there were groups meeting outside all over the grounds in prayer with each other. I had to laugh when I went to the deli of the Ralph's next door. We had sort of invaded the place at lunch to pick up sandwiches and to use their salad bar. Here were probably 100+ people wandering around with "green arm bands" talking and hugging each other as new found friends. In Christ, Richard PS: one great thing was our pastor attended with us except for when he had to go back to preach. There were at least a dozen of us attending. |
