| Author | Message | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2005 |
Loneviking, Quote"Catalyst, I can see that you're <sic> problem is the way you approach the Bible." Thank you for pointing out my problems <grin>. Let me see if I can show you what I am thinking: None of us KNOW for surety how things work/happen. We each have belief systems that we have tested and work for us - Muslims believe their way based on the Koran/Kuran, Buddhists their way and Christians their way. Even in Christendom there is not ONE WAY to interpret things - there is often interpretive differences (witness the different religions). So from YOUR perspective and YOUR interpretation of the way that the Bible says things YOU have determined MY problem? <grin> Do you see my difficulty with your statement? It would be easier for me to accept "teaching" from you if you prefaced it in a more scholarly "from my study I find that I believe this. . ., or it seems to me that it is saying this..." Your statement would seem to show that you believe that your belief structure and constructs are the only true way to interpret the Bible and you are pointing out the problem that is keeping me from believing as YOU believe. I really have no need or want to "believe as you believe". I would like to find: 1. God/Yahweh 2. truth Of course truth is different for each person - witness: 1. the rain - for person A saved their crops and therefore their livelihood 2. the rain - for person B killed their little girl who was playing outside Same thing - different truth. Since heaven is the goal - to live forever with God - and we agree that there is not one religion that will be in heaven exclusively - obviously there is more than one "truth"? I am interested in what you believe because it is a curiosity to me how one could believe in a loving God that would even ALLOW eternal suffering, and how you could worship that being. I have seen this in primitive tribes but it is not logical to me. Remember this has NOTHING to do with the Devil. The devil will not be causing eternal hell to happen - this will be God - defying natural and physical laws to make the constant and eternal punishment continue??? In Christ, Bill | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1010 Registered: 7-2003  |
Bill, I wish this were not online because my comments may seem rather harsh in print. Just please know that I am offering my analysis without any animus. I believe I would say the same things if we were sharing a cup of coffee at Starbuckís and discussing this tough topic, but it would be more evident that I am debating an interesting topic while maintaining an amicable environment. I imagine all that will be lost in print, but here goes. It's fair enough to say that you believe I am misinterpreting scripture. I may be. That is a distinct possibility that we must examine. Could I be wrong? You bet I could be! Iíve certainly been wrong many times before. But what concerns me greatly about all your responses is you have made no attempt to interact with the scriptural passages that deal with this subject. I hope that this will not seem rude, but I sense a certain mocking tone in your posts when responding to those who are wrestling with this topic from a purely scriptural basis. I sense that your own opinions and philosophy take precedence over a study of the Biblical data. You state that youíre seeking YHWH and Truth. YHWH and Truth are only revealed in the person of Jesus Christ who is revealed in the pages of scripture. Therefore those seeking YHWH and Truth cannot put the Bible second to their own opinions. In the end, neither your opinion nor my opinion has any real importance on this or any other spiritual matter. My opinion is no better than yours. Only what is revealed through Jesus Christ and His Word is important. It is His opinion that we are seeking. On this particular subject Christ had much to say. So letís be very clear here, I am not and have not asked you to accept my opinion of ìwhat the Bible saysî without examination. I have asked you to explain from scripture what you believe. You are right, if the discussion is not based in scripture, then we will have to lovingly agree to disagree because we do not have a shared basis from which to start the discussion. I still hope that we can have a discussion from scripture and scripture alone on this topic. Iíll be here if youíre ever interested. In Christian Love, Chris | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2005 |
I interpret those texts differntly form the way that you interpret them. Harsh and stern are words that a teacher who has the truth would talk. I have no problem with what you say (even though I dsiagree) because I believe that you and I are on the same footing - both sinners - you have the way that you interpret and I have the way that I interpret and we both agree that this is non-salvific. So head to Starbuck's my friend and have one on me! <grin> Bill | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1025 Registered: 7-2003  |
"defying natural and physical laws to make the constant and eternal punishment continue" So, do you believe those laws control God or does God control the universe? It seems a great deal changed after the fall, if scripture is true and to be believed. But God created this world, and it seems he can do whatever he wants with it. I personally do not believe there are a variety of truths and that all religions lead to the same place. The Bible says that Jesus is the way, truth and life and no one comes to the father except by him. So, it would seem the gate to heaven and truth is narrow, not broad. Further, while the Bible speaks against fear in general, it does say the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. So, there is obviously a healthy form of fear. Someone may be drawn to God because of the fear of hell, but that's not enough to bring someone to a saving relationship with Christ. It can't merely be lipservice, it has to be a genuine heart change...and God knows who are his. I'd be afraid of going to hell, either temporarily or eternally as scripture states. But I hate the complacency that a temporary punishment brings. Those who I know who believe in a slap on the wrist, then ceasing, don't really care about other people and their condition before a holy God. They are more concerned with this temporal physical body than anyone's spiritual condition. Afterall, they just cease to exist...no great loss. There are a great many athiests who believe that way, and I think it's Ecc. that says if that's true, we should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. I also think it is a huge leap to put God on the same plane we are on in reasoning and logic. His word also says his ways are not ours, and sometimes that means we don't understand...like my children don't always understand my rules and SOP (that's standard operating procedure, not EGW!). What I believe or don't believe about this topic doesn't change the reality of what is. My greater concerns with the posts seem to indicate you think you might be in that mix. Maybe it was just symantics for affect, or maybe you have real doubt. Seems that might be the greater issue, if you aren't sure..... | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2005 |
Well Melissa - currently we are applying out current rules/laws and understanding to this thread and to the Bible texts - so yes - I believe that to keep us alive for billions of years without food and etc would defy current natural laws. Now - if you want to invoke Gods abilities to have other laws etc then we can have those apply to the Bible as well so we still do not have to have suffering. And I also agree that just because lemmings don't believe that they will die if they jump off the cliff that they will die anyway. So I agree that if I am wrong and there IS an evernal hell and I don't go to heaven that I will get the eternal hell no matter what I believe - and vice versa right? Not sure what "that mix" is... Now regarding putting God on our same plane of reasoning and logic - is that not what we are doing when we interpret the Bible? We see through a glass darkly. Just because you or Chris interprets the Bible in one way does not mean that is the correct an only way. Remember that this is the God of Jonah - who even though He gave an unconditional message of doom still relented because he was loathe to destroy an entire city if they repented. Bill | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 |
When God destroyed the wicked people in the flood, what happened to them? Or in Sodom and Gomorrah? It seems that when God destroys something, it is done away with for good. Isn't that the definition of destruction? I love how patient God was with Abraham when Abraham was bargaining with Him on behalf of Sodom. God is so loving and always provides a way out for those who love and respect Him. I have nowhere near the amount of love in my heart that God does for His creation, yet I would not want to see even the most horrible criminal suffer for eternity. I would rather that miserable person just be destroyed never to suffer again. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure God will have to set me straight on many things when I get to Heaven. Julie | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1011 Registered: 7-2003 |
Actually Woolie, the wicked people at the time of the flood were NOT done away with. Only their bodies were, but their spirits were kept in "prison" (Sheol/Hades). There is no evidence that God snuffs out His creation.
Chris | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris - that is what you believe - when we get to heaven we can find out exactly what is true. Let me ask you - do you believe in the rapture too? Bill | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1012 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bill, please exegete the text above. Chris | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2005 |
I have often wondered about that - it certainly fits your view doesn't it. It certainly sounds almost apochryphal doesn't it? Like Daniel in the lion's den the second time and prophets being teleported. I wonder how anyone would KNOW that Jesus did this? All of the other accounts simply state what they saw or did. This one tells you that Jesus did something that they would have no knowledge of? Not sure - like many things in this world that I cannot explain. Evolution for example - vs creation - I do not have all the answers there either. Again - I am happy for you that you seem to feel that you have all the answers and that your theology fits what you perceive to be true. In Christ, Bill | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris, Thank you for that text. It sure did puzzle me! I have a NKJV Life Application Study Bible, and the notes on that say that the meaning of preaching to the spirits in prison is not exactly clear. Perhaps it meant that Jesus went and announced salvation to God's faithful followers who had been waiting for their salvation during the whole Old Testament era, as Matthew records that when Jesus died, "the graves were opened; and the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went to the holy city and appeared to many" Matthew 27:52, 53. You said that there is no Biblical evidence that God "snuffs" out His creation, but I see it in the flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah. God is loving and wishes that no one should perish, so He ALWAYS provides an alternative. He warns us ahead of time. He warned Adam and Eve, he warned Noah and the people of that day, he warned the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. He warns those of us today that we have a choice between eternal life through Jesus' saving blood, or death. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." It does not say that the wages of sin is eternal torment. Revelation 20:14 speaks of the lake of fire being the second death. It mentions "second death" again in 21:8. This has been an interesting discussion for me to follow. I think most of you are more knowledgeable than I am, because as someone mentioned earlier I am finding myself still a baby christian even though I have considered myself to be one since I was a child. I just have to respectfully disagree with the concept of eternal torment or punishment, however, because it goes against everything I read about God in the Bible and His character. If there is something God wants to reveal to me about it differently, He knows my heart is open to that always. Julie | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1013 Registered: 7-2003 |
But that's just the thing Julie, God did not snuff out the spirits of the people at the flood or in Sodom. There is a very real difference between body and spirit. Notice that in I Peter 3:18-19 the "spirits now in prison" are identified as those "who once were disobedient...in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark". We don't have to guess who they were because the text tells us! it's right there in the text! The text itself rules out these people being God's faithful followers. In Matt. 27:52, 53 we see the bodies of some of the saints were awakened. This does not mean that their spirit was asleep, remember there is a difference. What we see here is a foretaste of the final resurrection when God will bring with him the departed saints and reunite spirit with imperishable body. I also should point out that arguments by analogy are not valid arguments nor is it a valid method of doctrinal exegesis. We cannot legitimately say, "Because God destroyed the city of Sodom and destroyed the world by flood, therefore there is no Hell and soul sleep is true." Do you see why this is an illogical statement that doesn't hold up? Logically, all these things could be true. It's not an if/then proposition. In other words, logically God could have destroyed Sodom and destroyed the world by flood AND there could also be a Hell and the spirit could survive past death. Just because the first is true it doesn't follow that the second is untrue. What we need to do is look in the didactic parts of scripture that teach directly about what happens at death and what happens to the wicked. There are parts of scripture that directly address the question, we don't need to try to reason by analogy from historic narrative, nor is it valid to do so. Finally, in regards to to the use of the word "death" in Rom 6:23 and Rev. 20:14. You are starting with the idea that "death" is an unconcious or non existant state. I have done my best to study every text dealing with the topic that I can find and I am convinced based on the Biblical data that death is not an unconcious or non-existant state. The wicked do indeed experience death, but that should not be construed as non-existence (see the many texts I posted earlier in this thread). Julie, this is an interesting subject, but no one is saved or lost based on their understanding of Hell or of the intermediate state. Still, God has revealed much of Himself and His ways to us in scripture and it is beneficial to us to learn to handle scripture and understand it's teachings to the best of our ability. I would like to recommend two books to you that have been very helpful to me in avoiding exegetical errors. These books will equip you with the basic interpretive skills you need to draw your own conclusions from scripture in a way which is exegetically valid: "Knowing Scripture" by R.C. Sproul and "How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth" by Godon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart May the Lord Jesus richly bless your studies! Chris In | ||
| Abundantrest Registered user Username: Abundantrest Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 |
I never knew I would start such a discussion! Wow, this seems to be a very polarizing subject ... you each seem to be very strongly on one side or the other, no wavering! Well, at least you're not double-minded. I must admit that I was raised believing in the eternal torment of hell-fire (as taught in the Baptist brimstone sense), and found some relief at the Adventist doctrine of soul-sleep and non-inherant immortality of mankind. It's taken me a while to catch up on your posts on this one, so I may have missed a point or two that has been made. I guess the scriptures that have always "convinced" me in the past few years of the Adventist point of view include: Mat 10:28 Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in His own time. He is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords, 1Ti 6:16 the only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom none of mankind has seen or can see, to whom be honor and eternal might. Amen. These scriptures seem to indicate a finality of judgement that rests with God, and that all immortality rests in Him as well ... Paul talk's about our corruptible being change to the incorruptible, but this is for believers, not the ungodlgy. As for taking Jesus at His word: Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. From the Greek Strongs, #622 (perish in the English translations) means to destroy fully. So, that being the case, where do we go from here? (no pun intended)... PS - Thank you so much for the input, and discussion. I agree that this particular doctrine is not a salvational issue, BUT I do believe it can have a definite impact on how one views God and His character. Perhaps the eternal burning fires of hell are more to blame for people rejecting Christianity than we realize ... just a thought. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, what a discussion. Like Abundantrest, it has taken me awhile to catch up with this thread. There is so much I would like to say, I don't know if I'll get to it all right now, but here's a few of my thoughts. First, I'll comment on your last statement, Abundantrest. You say that people reject Christianity because of the doctrine of eternal hell. But I have heard (including personal testimonies from people on this forum) that a lot of Adventists don't really care whether they make it to heaven or not because they will just be annihilated anyway--there is no eternal hell waiting for the unsaved. The Biblical doctrine of eternal hell is supposed to give people a reason why they need to be saved. What is the point of heaven if there is no hell to shun? Abundantrest, you mentioned Strong's #622, the Greek word apollumi. This word which is used in John 3:16 (translated as "perish") is also used in Matthew 10:28 which you quoted also (translated as "destroy"). This word does not necessarily mean to annihilate--it can mean simply to "render useless." It is the same Greek word used in Mark 2:22 (translated as "ruined" in the NIV): "And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins." Neither the wine nor the wineskins are annihilated, they are merely rendered useless. So no, destruction does not necessarily mean annihilation as was claimed earlier in the thread. If a virus fully destroys my computer it may render it useless, but my computer does not cease to exist! So John 3:16 and Matthew 10:28 do not prove the Adventist viewpoint correct. In fact Matthew 10:28 proves it incorrect! It says that people can kill my body but they can't kill my soul! According to Adventism, a soul is simply a living body--a body with breath (spirit) in it. So if someone kills my body, they have also killed my soul, according to SDA doctrine--there is no longer any soul. Jesus totally refutes that doctrine in Matthew 10:28. He says that a murderer is NOT able to kill my soul, but that God can destroy (apollumi) it in (eternal, according to Jesus' statements elsewhere) hell (gehenna)! It surprises me that the verses in Revelation about "the second death" keep being mentioned in support of the SDA doctrine. Revelation 20:14-15 (NIV) says: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 21:8 (NIV) says: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsótheir place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." These verses clearly say that the Lake of Fire IS the second death. It doesn't say annihilation is the second death. It says the Lake of Fire IS the second death. People keep talking about the word "death" as if it means non-existence. As Chris said, you can't approach the Scriptures with the presupposition that "death" means non-existence. You have to look at how the Bible defines death. Death simply means "separation." The Bible repeatedly refers to physical death as a departure. Departing what? The body! The soul and spirit depart (are separated from) the body. The Bible says that God "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," (Ephesians 2:5 NASB.) We were not "non-existent in our trangressions." Our spirits were simply separated from God! That is what the new birth, or being born again, is all about. The Holy Spirit has to raise my dead spirit to life eternal (meaning it never dies, just as Jesus promises in John 11:25-26), which means that He connects my spirit to Himself, which was separated from Him! Jesus says: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:6-7 NASB.) It is our spirit which is born again. This is why the SDA doctrine that spirit=breath is such a horrible heresy. It totally denies the reality of the new birth, of our spirit really actually being born again, and of HAVING eternal life now! Instead, SDA's say that eternal life is something we get at the second coming (despite 1 John 5:13 and other verses saying we have it now!) and that BAPTISM (into SDAism) or some other, vague concept is the new birth!!! No, the Bible says that we are literally new creatures! Romans 8:38-39 says that NOTHING, including "death," can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." That means that we can't cease to exist when we die, for one thing!! If I ceased to exist, I would be separated from the love of God! But this text says death cannot separate me from the love of God! But what is the death that the wicked experience? It is being eternally separated from the love of God. People say that God is merciful, gracious, and loving and so He wouldn't make people suffer eternally. But look at what the Word of God says:
Notice that it says God's wrath is "full strength" (or "poured out without mixture"--KJV). It is not mixed with love, mercy, or grace! It is poured out full strength! The wicked have to experience the full wrath of God. They have to get exactly what they deserve--eternal punishment. Why do they deserve this? Because they have committed the most horrible sin--and that is rejecting Jesus! Jesus says that "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 3:29 NASB). An eternal sin requires eternal punishment! Julie, you said that you have to disagree with the concept of eternal punishment--but that very term comes from Jesus Christ Himself! "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46 NASB.) The punishment is as eternal as eternal life. The SDAs subtly twist the meaning of "eternal." The Greek word for eternal means perpetual, without end--unceasing, continual, ongoing, never ending. It does NOT mean something done which is simply "permanent"! Just as eternal life is never ending life--so the punishment is also never ending! The Bible says the torment is "forever and ever." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 28, 2005) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 936 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would like to add a couple of points to my above post. SDAs like to say that it would not be just for God to punish people eternally for temporal sin. But Jesus said that rejecting Him is "an eternal sin," not a temporal sin, in the text I quoted above. SDAs also love to accuse Christians of repeating the devil's first lie, that "you will not die" when they say that you are conscious while dead. But we do believe that the wicked will die (be eternally separated from God--the Bible's definition of eternal death). We also believe in the Bible's definition of physical death (the body dies--the soul and spirit are separated from the body). We also believe Jesus' promise to those who believe in Him--that WE will go on living even if we die and that WE will NEVER die (John 11:25-26). That is NOT the devil's lie--that is Jesus' promise to those who believe in Him!!! Adam and Eve really did die that very day, as God said they would. Their spirits died. They were separated from God. SDAs are actually the ones who teach the devil's first lie--by claiming that Adam and Eve didn't even have spirits that could die that day!!! Julie, I don't want to get off topic too far but you said that God "warned the people of Sodom and Gomorrah." Where does it say that He warned them? He only warned Lot and his family. In fact, it looks very Calvinistic to me.  He chose to rescue Lot and destroy the rest. In fact, the Bible says of Lot, "But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city." (Genesis 19:16 NASB.) So God saved Lot "against his will" and destroyed the rest of the city. People say that God can't force someone to be saved, that it would violate our "free will"--but the Bible calls it "compassion"! And who would complain about being saved??! The SDAs also say that those of us who teach that we have souls/spirits which survive bodily death are teaching a "pagan doctrine"! But the SDA doctrine of the state of the dead is what is pure paganism. Pagans/humanists/atheists are the ones who teach that when you die you cease to exist. It is an absolutely horrifying, pagan doctrine. It is also the doctrine of the Sadducees, who according to Acts 23:8 taught that there is no spirit. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 28, 2005) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1015 Registered: 7-2003 |
Abundantrest, it looks like Jeremy has provided analysis for most of the texts you cited so I will not repeat the exegesis that he has done. I did, however, want to address I Timothy 6:15-16 which states that God "alone possesses immortality". This is true to be sure. Only the Creator possesses eternal life as an inherent attribute of His nature. In the Bible, people are only said to be clothed in immortality once they are clothed in a perfect, imperishable, glorified resurrection body. These glorified bodies are a gift of God. One should not confuse the intermediate state of the believer who is with Christ awaiting the resurrection of the body with "immortality". The term "immortality" is biblically equated only with God Himself and with the resurrection bodies of the saints. Consider what Dr. Walter Martin has to say in his classic textbook on cultic systems, Kingdom of the Cults.
So if immortality is only applied to humans as it relates to the glorified resurrection bodies given to the saints by God, then one should most certainly not confuse the ruination and punishment eternally experienced by the wicked with "immortality". I hope this helps. In love and respect, Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 709 Registered: 3-2005 |
One other book I would like to add to Chris's recommended book list on this topic is "Death and the Afterlife" by Dr. Robert Morey. He deals specifically with SDA arguments in this book. It can be ordered by calling 1-800-41-TRUTH, or www.faithdefenders.com Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 937 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would also like to add Samuel Fisk's book, The Problems of the Afterlife: What Destiny Awaits Unbelievers? This book can be ordered through SDAOutreach.org. Chris, way back in this thread you wrote:
I believe the passage "Schasc" was referring to is the following:
This is the verse that Adventists love to use to "prove" that "eternal" doesn't mean "eternal." Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1016 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks Jeremy. The NASB text note [an alternate translation option] reads, If this text note translation is correct then the text would read:
The NIV translates the text:
The NLT translates it:
But no matter which of these translations you take, it means the same thing. The vengeance which Sodom suffered is an example or a type of eternal fire, not eternal fire itself. It is only a shadow pointing towards the anti-type. The fulfillment always is far greater than the shadow or type. I also think it's kind of interesting that Sodom is used as a shadow of what eternal Hell fire will be like since it is very likely that this was the type of Middle Eastern oil fueled fire that we saw in Kuwait during the Gulf war. Nearly impossible to put out and capable of burning for years. I ran across this interesting quote by Barclay.
| ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2478 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy and Chris, what an awesome discussion of this subject. God's wrath is real. Jesus bore all His wrath for sin on Calvary. As Jeremy has said so well, those who are lost are not being lost because of their sin per se; they will be lost because of what they did (or didn't do) with Jesus. They are being lost because they reject the Sin Bearer. Those who accept the sacrifice of the Sin Bearer enter eternal life. Those who reject the Sin Bearer enter "eternal punishment" (Jesus' words). To say God's character "wouldn't" allow someone to suffer eternally is an argument that doesn't account for God's complete omnipotence and sovereignty and justice. From a human perspective, eternal punishment looks like cruelty. From a human perspective, however, the death of Christ also looks like paternal cruelty. If we can receive the Holy Spirit's revelation that the death of Christ was an eternal miracle of divine love and mercy and anguish and selflessness, then we can begin to see that those who turn away from embracing this astounding, history-changing singularity would face an eternity of estrangement, suffering, and icy aloneness. To be in a universe where God is (and the Bible is clear that nothing that has been made is outside His sovereign control--and that would include the lake of fire which He created) but to be completely incapable of relating to Him would be the most unimaginable horror. It would be the horror Jesus experienced when God turned away from Him on the cross. The wicked will be resurrected for their judgment--for their descent into the "lake of fire". Death (from which they will be resurrected) will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus said they would be sent away to eternal punishment--and this punishment is not a second suffering for sin. It is the result of not embracing Jesus. Also, remember the old physics law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Philosophically, annihilation has problems because annihilation is not an equal and opposite reaction to the reality of eternal life. I have somehow found the reality of an all-powerful, all-just and all-merciful God to be a great comfort. Somehow a God who "wouldn't" or "coudln't" punish evil and destroy the wicked eternally to be a limited God who would have only limited ability to intersect my life as well. I praise God for being the ultimate value in the universe! Colleen |
