| Author |
Message |
91steps
Registered user
Username: 91steps
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |     |
I didn't have a problem stopping drinking before I was baptized because I was a HEAVY drinker. But I have had people at the GC pratically assualt me for drinking a Dr. Pepper or Coke because they contain caffeine!!! I grew up on the Eastern Shore of MD and ate crabs most of my life, but I really do not have a hankering to eat them or most shell fish now. But I can put a hurting on a thick, juicy steak!!! |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 718
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:35 pm: | |
Magpie,
Thanks for mentioning the tape by Walter Martin about Jesus plus anything else equals a cult. I only wish Walter had believed that about Adventism. For some reason he did not apply the cult label to SDA. I knew him as a personal friend and he was my spiritual mentor, yet he was very soft on Adventism. However, I am told that he would have changed his mind had he lived a little longer. He admitted one week before he died that he had been deceived on some major points about EGw and SDA theology.
Stan
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 8:51 pm: | |
OH, Colleen!!!! B gets so mad at me when I accuse him of taking what his religion teaches without questioning anything, but he has said that EXACT thing. One time I said that there was no big deal with coffee, as it wasn't alcoholic, and his reply was "there is if you don't want to be controlled by stimulants". And he has tapes in his truck about controlling vital force!
Just last Tuesday, he asked why I always held what people did 150 years ago against him....because he still lives by it! He wants me to think the church has changed so much (so he can get leverage to take our son, I'm sure), but it really doesn't look that different in lots of ways. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2482
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:46 pm: | |
Dear Melissa (sigh), I so feel for you. You're right--the window dressing has changed, but nothing essential is different.
With ongoing prayers for you,
Colleen |
Magpie
Registered user
Username: Magpie
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 7:09 am: | |
Riverfonz,
Thanks for the comment. I had noticed that Walter had done nothing on SDA, but I thought I had just missed it.
However, there is another person who did some books on the cults. That is Dave Hunt, and he gives them equal time with all the rest!! |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 416
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:53 am: | |
91 Steps, which part of MD? My Grandmother lived in Rock Hall for 80+ years, and my folks lived in Chestertown for some time before retiring. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 720
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:08 am: | |
Magpie,
Did Dave Hunt classify SDA as a cult?
Stan |
Abundantrest
Registered user
Username: Abundantrest
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | |
I must admit that after studying the scriptures in this post, I was shocked! I had never read any other version of Mark 7 before ... only the KJV! And I never understood what was being said there, until now. To me, this is the most damaging of all of the scriptures, as it is CLEARLY Mark's explaination (as he understood it first hand) of what Jesus was teaching.
AWESOME!!!
Also, about the wine at the wedding ... it always has puzzled me why we try to "excuse" this as non-fermented grape juice. The text explicitly tells us that they thought they had saved the best until last ... not the other way around. Now I ask you, at a wedding feast, would the best be fermented or fresh grape juice? "Nuff said!
GOD IS REALLY COOL!!! |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 417
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:36 pm: | |
First of all, saying it wasn't fermented diminishes the miracle. What's more miraculous, turning water into fresh grape juice, or turning water into grape juice that has already been fermented? The high moral road teetotalers read into the text something that isn't there and in doing so they discount Jesus in order to mark up Ellen White - a sure sign of cultic doctrine.
Second of all, every alcoholic knows the trick to drinking on the cheap is to pour the first one or two with top shelf liquor, then move down the shelf to the cheaper stuff once your palate has numbed to the taste. The point of the steward was that Jesus did the exact opposite, and that impressed him.
Just read what the Scriptures actually SAY and let the Truth speak for Himself through them. |
91steps
Registered user
Username: 91steps
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:39 pm: | |
Freeatlast, let's say the middle of the Shore for now, don't want anyone at the GC trolling here and ID'ing me until I leave there. Not too many of us from the "Shore" working there. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 418
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:41 pm: | |
91, understood. Blessings to you until you blow your own cover. |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:54 pm: | |
People who constantly harp on the various points of their interpretation of the law bring to mind a statements from a prominent Rabbi.
Akiba (2nd or 3rd century AD) "The man who prides himself in his knowledge of the law is like a dead animal in the middle of the road. The carcass of the beast may attract much attention, but all who pass hold a hand to their nose for it stinks." |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:48 pm: | |
Absolutey correct Akiba. I really like that statement.
Diana |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 58
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 2:59 pm: | |
Abundantrest,
About the wine at the wedding. If people were at a wedding feast and merely ran out of juice, what's the big deal? Is there anywhere else in Scripture (or even any other writings) where people wax on and on about the juice? It's just not a popular subject.
Having good wine, however, (the real thing) is a very big deal to people that like and drink wine. The very context of this discussion makes me believe it was alcoholic wine.
Besides, if you speak to a Jewish Rabbi versed in Jewish history, they will freely admit to using alcoholic wines in ceremonies and special occasions. For SDA's to just blindly pass on the obvious features of this miraculour occurrence is deliberate propogation of a falsehood.
Even Bacchiocchi (spelling?) failed to address this point in his book "Wine and the Bible".
Belvalew,
I thoroughly enjoy your postings and look forward to reading them, but I have to point out that Kellogg lived with the Whites off and on from a fairly young age, they basically put him through his medical training. He got his start in the health work from EGW. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 6:18 pm: | |
That text that Vhris mentions above wich says not to judge about what one eats or drinks. I tried mentioning that text to my elderly SDA mother. It does not faze her. The reply I get is that alcholic beferages and unclean meats are not included in that text. That text is referring to drinks and foods that are alloded not forbidden things and beer, wine, wiskey, pork, shrimp, etc are non-foods and the texts says foods so as non-foods they are not included in that text. Those SDA's have a line down pat for every Bible text that a person can give them. It is very frusterating. |
Dt
Registered user
Username: Dt
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 1:33 pm: | |
Susan_2,
I know what you mean. I just had the same discussion the other day discussing the text in 1 Cor. about the body being a temple. This person kept insisting that foods could still corrupt the temple (body). I asked for Scriptural proof but of course there is none, just a fall-back to EGW.
In the discussion about wine, which to most SDA's is strictly forbidden, a sin to imbibe etc., it is interesting that nowhere in the Bible is the consumption of alcohol forbidden. If it is such a sin, why didn't God say so?
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Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 237
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 5:59 pm: | |
God did not mention it because it is ont a sin. It is the drunkenness that is a problem. Even the vow of the Nazarite to abstain was only for a set period of time. If it was a sin than why would the leaders of the church elders and deacons be told to not be taken to much wine?
This is a western issue. The Women's Temperance Movement etc. I believe if we were in a European country we would not even be having this discussion.
We are attending a "What We Believe" class at our Christian Church. The elders are my mutual agreement to obstain from alcohol. When I challenged the elders on the requirement, at first I was met with "holding up a higher standard". But was shocked when they came back and admitted that there is no biblcal reason, just basically tradition.
My heart lept that the elders of the church truly studied the Bible and did not stonewall me, like I have experianced so many times in the SDA orginization. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 737
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 6:35 pm: | |
That's right Violet, and the Womens Christian Temperance Union was a pagan and not a christian organization. Abstaining from wine is one of those commandments of men which many evangelical churches still insist on.
Stan |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1904
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 6:42 pm: | |
Dt, Read Provberbs 31 the last several paragraphs. It says to give wine and strong drink to the poor so they can forget their poverty. That must totally be one of my favorite pasages. I show that one to SDA's when they seem to be getting all judgemental about others and, well, you know how people can "lay blame" on those who have less and those with much sorrow and sadness in their lives. It's a wonderful passage to point out. Generally the folks I show this passage to just end up getting mad at me. I have to tell them to chill out, I didn't write the Bible, God did and God says to give wine and strong drink to the poor so they can forget their poverty. I have to admit, I have had to apply that passage personally several times. |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 6:47 pm: | |
Yes Stan, just like the smoking commandment. On one of his Q & A programs on 3ABN, Doug Bachelor was asked, "If I smoke will I go to hell?"
Doug responded, "The Bible doesn't say anything about smoking, so we don't know. But we do know that everyone in hell will be smoking." |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 757
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | |
Derrell,
That is typical of the flippancy of his comments sometimes. He does say some things to try to be funny, and that sounds like how he meant it, but to even imply that smoking could keep you out of heaven is just plain wrong.
Stan |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 420
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 12:39 pm: | |
Actually, smoking has kept at least one person I know from being baptized. The pastor of the particular "conservative" SDA church refused baptism on the basis that Ellen White had clearly condemned tobacco, therefore, this proselyte had no business asking to be baptized in the SDA church until he had given it up. The reason was stated something along the lines of, "If he wants to be an Adventist, he needs to start acting like an Adventist. Then I'll baptize him in an Adventist church. If he just wants cheap grace, he can go to one of those Sunday morning "come one-come all" baptisms at the beach. We hold our people to a higher standard than Babylon-by-the-beach does. They'll probably even light a cigarette for him while he's still drying off."
Ugh. |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 635
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 1:13 pm: | |
I read a sickening article in the Review a while back about a couple who met a lady on the street and invited her to their SDA church. The lady came every week (she was poor and probably lonely too) and eventually wanted to be baptized. The pastor refused on the grounds she was still drinking and smoking. Not long after that, they went to pick her up to take her to church and found her dead...never having the baptismal experience. You and I know, that baptism is an outward sign and not salvational...but did she know that? Did she die thinking she wasn't saved?
It was nice to know someone was thinking outside the box when they wrote that article and realising that you do take people where they are!
When the HS tells you to be baptised, you do it...you don't spend 6-weeks being indoctrinated into someone's brand of religion before they allow you to be baptized!!!! SAD! |
Zjason
Registered user
Username: Zjason
Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 10:15 pm: | |
A couple of years ago, my wife and I were having some very serious marital issues, so to escape the pain, I started smoking again after having been quit for a year. After about 8 months of smoking, I felt that I needed help from my pastor, because I felt he could relate. You see, he was a smoker before he became a pastor, so naturally, I felt that he would understand. So after the sermon one sabbath, I confided in him that I needed spiritual help, which he gladly offered, and I was pleasantly surprised that he didn't seem totally shocked. The appointment was made to come see me and my wife at our home, and when he came, he offered me all kinds of helpful advice and a nice book, and then I was told, among other things that basically if you persist in open sin after you know the truth, then there is no more sacrifice left for you, and that I could be opening myself up for church discipline if I continue to smoke. I looked over at my wife and saw the smile on her face and I just wanted to get up and leave the two of them to sit there and gloat in how good they were...I felt railroaded into quitting and silently fumed but tried to hide my feelings. He must've seen my facial expression because he said "well, I'm on your side jason, I want you to have the victory..." I understand that he meant well, but to make it seem like my salvation was conditional upon me doing or not doing something made me feel uncomfortable. I didn't understand why I felt that way until I started coming here.
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3335
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 6:26 pm: | |
Oh, Jason--I am so sorry. What a horrible experience. However well-meaning he might have been, that pastor's response to your problem was a form of spiritual abuse. He may have done it in all sincerity, but his response misrepresented the gospel and Jesus' sacrifice for you.
God is so faithful; He wates nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him. He will even redeem those dark times, Jason.
Colleen |
