| Author | Message | ||
| Abundantrest Registered user Username: Abundantrest Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 |
There are some SDA doctrines that I did not have before coming to the SDA church, that I still think are valid. Perhaps these are simply the last strongholds of many years of "bible study" programming and delusional thinking in that "we have a special message" blah, blah, blah. Here are some of the things I still believe ... I think: 1. Non-immortality of the soul 2. State of the dead (sleep till resurrection) 3. Eternal destruction (vs. eternal torment) i.e., the second death being a finality of existance for the wicked. If anyone has some scriptural insight into these issues that can help me discern the truth, let me know. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm still a bit fuzzy on these issues ... the SDA position seems to still make sense, but I know that it did not make sense to me originally when I began studying with the church. Any help on these would be appreciated. Thanks. | ||
| Kellymiller Registered user Username: Kellymiller Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2005 |
It is so nice to see that I am not the only one with these issues. All three points you have, I agree with. Just like you I have been wondering "why" I feel that way. Is it because of the church (the SRA church for me)and their beliefs, along with the fact, that prior to attending their church I was to young to pay attention to what my childhood church taught. Or rather are those my beliefs because that is what is right. Thankfully God has put me in a place of employment where we are able to have numerous discussions on religion. Just the other day, the discussion was on hell. It just doesn't make sense to me that a loving God would allow eternal torment. Personally, I believe that God has such a love, that He is not going to allow souls to be tormented forever. It will be nice to see what others have to say on this and yes, some scriptural support would be most apperciated. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1002 Registered: 7-2003  |
I had a post all written and managed to delete it before I got to post it, so I'll have to redo it tomorrow. There is another thread that talks about some of those points. It's found here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/3208.html?1120679230 Some verses to ponder: Philippians 1:22-24; 2 Corin 5, 2 Thes 4:15, 1 Corin 15, Rev 20:14, 2 Tim 1:10 This is also an excellent, brief reference: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/dead.cfm More tomorrow, if needed. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2429 Registered: 12-2003  |
Kelly and AbundantRest, Melissa's texts above are really crucial. If we are to take the Bible seriously, we cannot explain away what it clearly states. Also, Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Flesh give birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit" John 3:6. Further, to the Samaritan woman he said, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24). Spirit has to be something besides the breath we breathe. God IS spirit, and we must worship in spirit. The New Testament uses the word "pneuma" 379 times. Of these, 250 refer to the Holy Spirit. Forty times the word denotes the part of the human personality that can have a relationship with God. The rest of the occurances refer to demonic, unclean, evil, or heavenly spirits. (from The New Bible Dictionary by InterVarsity Press) Even though "pneuma" strictly refers to breath, air, or wind, its uses in the NT clearly refer to sentient beings which can relate to God--or ARE God (as in the Holy Spirit). The SDA argument that believing in a surviving spirit after death paves the way to spiritualism is a straw-man argument. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that our spirits have access to or knowledge of what's happening on earth after a person dies. 2 Cor 5, in fact, suggests that when we die, our spirits go to be with Jesus. Since our lives are hidden with Christ in God after we are born again, and since not even death can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39), we can assume that our spirits, the part of us which know Jesus, are "clothed" in Him until our resurrection. Until the resurrection, there's nothing to indicate that our spirits are wandering the universe freely. They need to be "clothed", as Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 5. But the fact that they are unclothed when we lose our mortal tents does not mean the the essence of ourselves disappears. Our spirits go to be with Jesus, according to the texts Melissa gave above. And especially notice 2 Thess. 4:15: Jesus brings WITH HIM those who have fallen asleep when He returns, and then the resurrection happens. Ask God to guide you as you study these issues; they almost always are the last issues to come up and to demand our attention as we process through and out of Adventism. Also, notice 2 Tim. 1:10 (another of Melissa's texts!). Jesus destroyed death and brought life and immortality to lighyt through the gospel. In other words, before Jesus destroyed death, the knowledge of eternal life (which by definition cannot include non-existence--the SDA belief sees the "first death" as a giant hiatus during which the dead are in a non-existent limbo , suriving only as a memory of God--an unbiblical idea) and immortality were not known or understood. This fact is why the OT is so vague about what happens after death. It had simply not been revealed yet. Ecclesiastes 9:5, by the way, the SDA "proof text" that there is no existence after death, is from a passage of Scripture that is describing the hopelessness of of life from a wordly persepctive. Solomon is describing the futility of life and the hopelessness of death as seen from the point of view of a person living far from God. This passage is not a doctrinal passage. One cannot derive doctrine from an out-of-context verse whose actual meaning is something far different than "soul sleep". As far as hell is concerned, I've come to see it not as an unloving concept but as a natural result of refusing the One who is eternal life. The attirbutes of God must all be eternal if He is eternal. His love and grace cannot be His only eternal attributes. If He is also just, His justice must also be eternal. If the consequence of accepting Jesus and His sacrifice is eternal life, the consequence for rejecting Jesus and His sacrifice must have an equal but opposite severity. Jesus Himself was the One who talked the most about hell. One thing that has occurred to me, however, is that hell is probably not literal, three-dimensional fire. It is likely in a completely different dimension than we live in in our mortal state, just as heaven and eternity are not bound by three or four dimensions. If people has spirits, however, as the Bible clearly suggests we do, then they must also have eternity to think about. Annihilation is not an equal but opposite consequence to eternal life. Further, the fact that we have typically defined death (eternal death) as ceasing to exist does not make that definition accurate. Eternal death might well be existing apart from Life and Light. Such existence would mean being out of relationship, eternal isolation. I've come to believe that the SDA belief that we not have true spirits, but that our spirits are merely breath, is a profound heresy that has compromised even our understanding of who Jesus is. If we do not have spirits, then Jesus did not have a spirit. That means sin is not primarily spiritual but physical, and it also means Jesus must have had a sinful nature. (In fact, Adventism has never reached consensus regarding the nature of Christ, nor did Ellen have a clear teaching regarding it.) God will guide you as you study these subjects. Ask Him to reveal truth to you and to direct your reading and your study. Colleen | ||
| Kellymiller Registered user Username: Kellymiller Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 |
What you both have said, pretty much goes with what my husband said last night. In no way am I saying that you are wrong, it's just hard to wrap my mind around a "new idea". To me the thought of going to heaven after death, was a story you told children who lost a loved one, much like the stork bringing babies. Maybe the SRA church made me "need" suffering in some form and the whole idea of it being so easy, is just hard to accept. Probably the thing that is the hardest, is letting go of the things that I stood for, for so long. It's like letting go of who I am, I have to wonder if doing so will leave anything. If I give things up, what do I have left. Last night my husband also suggested that I am still having trouble with the "all or nothing" idea and I am. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 125 Registered: 3-2005 |
Kellymiller: You are in a very difficult place and I pray God's peace beyond understanding as you continue to study these issues. I've been there and most of us on this forum have gone/are going through the same process you're entering now. It is not an easy journey, but you will find the most abundant JOY...in fact, JOY will be re-defined!! I even found that giving up those beliefs felt GOOD rather than bad. It was like losing weight...Spiritual baggage so to speak. Now I have a thought and I hope someone with an answer reads this: When I accept Christ as my Savior and He indwells me by way of the Holy Spirit; and since the Holy Spirit is a seal...a deposit until Christ's return, I actually can't die (or at least the part of me that has been regenerated by the Spirit), right? In other words: If I believe the Holy Spirit is God and He indwells me; and based on the fact that God cannot die, then logically speaking, the part of me that is regenerated by Him cannot die either. Right? Is my thinking way off here? Sincerely, Patria | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 629 Registered: 7-2004 |
You got it Patria. You are an eternal being, through the grace of Jesus Christ who said, "I am come that you might have life." | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 678 Registered: 3-2005 |
I will also put a plug in for an article Colleen wrote in an old Proclamation issue Sept. '04 called "Breath, or core identity" This helped at the time to bring a lot of these issues together that I had not really thought much about before. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1005 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen did a great job explaining what I deleted... One point that I would make is that for me, I have to take scripture at what it says, even if I don't understand it or it doesn't makes sense. For example, scripture says children are a blessing from God...but my daughter is retarded. So, my "blessing" from God is defective?? Well, what's up with that? It is painful to read that eternal torment is eternal, but that is the words used to describe it both literally and when used in word pictures, such as the worm not dying. Every death story Jesus told had the worm not dying. (and there were several) Some say it is figurative, but even a figurative worm is very specifically said to not die. Matthew (I think) talks about the wicked being cast into outer darkness. I don't really know if that makes fire literal or figurative (since it seem hard to be in the dark with a fire), but it clearly is a separation from God and heaven. Same thing regarding the second death, which is the Rev. text above. The Bible says the second death is being tossed into the lake of fire. No where does scripture say that lake of fire ends, or consumes what is tossed in. It just doesn't. My personal concern about the ceasing to exist doctrine is that people will not have a true burden to share Christ. If the worst that happens is you cease existing, is that really that bad? It's not like you'll know you don't exist any more. There is nothing wrong with a healthy fear of God's justice, while fully embracing his love and grace. Reality is, though, where you are in your journey, make sure you are well grounded in who Christ is and salvation and grace and new covenant things first. You aren't going to pick your eternal destination by what you believe about them. God will show you all these things as you go through the journey and study them out. Hope some of these thoughts help. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2438 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kelly, I know how you feel. I remember so vividly feelng as if I were losing myself, my identity, my life, my everything. I was quite depressed. Jesus, though, wanted me to let go of everything I thought myself to be so He could define me and be my identity. When I was finally able to surrender to Him and allow Him to comfort me, I couldn't believe the depth of joy I felt. Leaving Adventism is a spiritual battle; that's why the struggle is so powerful. God, though, is faithful, and He is enough. Colleen | ||
| Kellymiller Registered user Username: Kellymiller Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2005 |
There are two ways I am looking at this. The first is in Faith, I know that letting go of old ideas, will allow God to come in, in His truth. The second, is like I am falling out of an airplane. If I let go, who knows what will happen, but if I try to hold on, there is a bit (a tiny bit) of hope that I can handle it myself. Everything in me knows that only the first way can be right. Yet, it is so very hard to just let go and fall - - - - even though I know Jesus will be there to catch me. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2005 |
Abundantrest and Kelly - those were the same issues that were the hardest for me to understand when I left the SDA Church. When we found the Church we now attend, I asked the pastor those questions. He was very wise to tell us that they were non-salvational issues. He focussed on our understanding of Salvation through the Grace of Jesus death on the cross. That there was NOTHING we could do to be saved other than repent and accept that gift of Grace. He said the rest we could study and understand later. When I finally understood HOW SIMPLE it is I just wanted to shout with joy. It made my transition out of the SDA Church much less "scary"! I am only now finding the need to really study some of the non-salvational issues. But I know that even if I don't understand them all fully I AM STILL SAVED! What a blessing that is. So - thanks for asking that question, because I am now ready to understand more! And thanks all of you for posting such concise and easy to understand answers. It make so much more sense to me now that I have some distance from my SDA indoctrination. tisha | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2004 |
What do we do with the Sodom and Gomorrah fire? It seems that the adventist arguement about hell not being forever goes along with that. The Bible talks about the smoke from S and G rising forever(something like that.........i might be totally off!) Obviously (so the Adventists say) we know that you cant see the smoke from S and G today.........so they say the the effects are forever and ever........any thoughts? | ||
| Kellymiller Registered user Username: Kellymiller Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2005 |
On my drive to work this morning after reading this again and posting, I was thinking......."What do I do? Just give up all of my ideas, untill I find new ones?" It was almost like someone was in the pick-up with me and hit me over the head. Yes, that is just what I do. What I need to do is put away all of my old ideas, go to a good Bible based church that keeps the focus on our salvation and Christs gift. So tonight I am going to talk to the pastor of the church I have been visiting and that my daughter attends. Would you believe I have been sending my five year old to sunday school, Bible school and preschool at this church, but not regularly attending myself. The Holy Spirit was really impressing me to call today and make an appointment to meet with the pastor. So I did. Now we'll see how this goes. All of this is such a blessing, thank you everyone. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1002 Registered: 7-2003  |
Schasc, according to my search, there are 48 references to Sodom and/or Gomorrah in the Old and New Testaments. None of these references ever say that Sodom burned forever or that it's smoke rises forever. I've also done searches for the word "Sodom" occuring within 10 verses of the word "forever" and have not found any such statement in any translation. If anyone knows of something I've missed please let me know. I think that SDAs simply try to make an arugment by analogy (a poor method of argumentation). They are basically saying: "If the city of Sodom did not burn forever, then sinners will not suffer eternal punishment" Of course it's easy to see that there is no logical link in these two things and that this whole statement is nonsensical. Chris | ||
| Kellymiller Registered user Username: Kellymiller Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 |
My meeting went very well tonight. All of this is truely Gods doing. It is not easy but it is God doing. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2444 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kelly, this is wonderful. He does bring us face to face with ourselves and with Him at just the right time. He knows when we need what, and He prepares our hearts for the next step. I'm so thankful you'll be going to church! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 142 Registered: 3-2005 |
Kelly: Praise God! I will pray for God's peace to envelope you as you continue on this journey. I laughed out loud when you said it was like you were hit over the head! I SO can relate! Patria | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris, Let me get this straight - do I understand that you are a believer in "roasting forever" if you are not saved? If you have some references for believe this I would be interested. I believe in a permanent separation from God/permanent death - but the only everlasting punishment is that sin will be gone - arise no more - permanently. The idea of an angry God roasting people on a spit forever... well... Bill | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1005 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bill, my main point was that the destruction of Sodom doesn't tell us anything at all about the duration of Hell (Gehenna). It's an illogical argument that doesn't bare at all upon the discussion of annialationism vs. eternal punishment. This is certainly a topic worth debating, but we want to use sound biblical reasoning in doing so. First I would say that the idea you communicated of people being skewed on a spit is not a biblical concept. This idea seems to owe more to Dante than to the Bible. Secondly I would note that the Bible describes Hell in various ways. Sometimes it is described as fire, sometimes as a lake of fire, sometimes as a pit, sometimes as outer darkness. Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive in our current physical world, so all this suggests to me that we are dealing with metaphorical language that attempts to describe a reality that is far beyond what we can comprehend or conceptualize. I suspect the reality of eternal sepeartion from God and all that is good is far more horrible than words can convey. Thirdly I would point out that the punishment itself, not just the results of that pnishment, is said to be eternal for unbelievers in the same way that Heaven is eternal for believers. We can't make one group of people unconscious and the other group conscious and make any sense of these statements.
The "fire" (whatever that may signify) of Hell itself is said to be eternal.
The "burning" (whatever that my signify) is said to be everlasting.
Those in Hell are portrayed as conscious:
The punishment of the wicked is portrayed as not only conscious, but eternal.
Finally, it should be noted that God is a God of Love, Mercy, and Grace. However, this is not a full description of God. God is also a God of Righteousness, Justice, and Wrath again sin. To deny any of these traits is to deny the picture the God has given us of Himself in scripture. To deny that God is also a God of justice and wrath is tantamount to creating a god of our own design.
Hey, I agree, this is a HARD doctrine. I don't particularly like it. But ultimately I have to ask myself two questions: "Will I believe what I want to believe or will I bend the knee before the Word of God and believe what scripture teaches?" "Will I fashion a god that I am comfortable with or will I worship the God that has revealed Himself through His Word?" In love and respect, Chris (Message edited by Chris on August 24, 2005) |
