| Author | Message | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2005 |
I apologize if I shouldn't have started a new thread about this, but I think the Reformed Theology and other threads pertaining to the Sovereignty of God begs a question (probably more than one, but this one is on my heart). I don't know if you guys have already been down this road, but I'd love any insights... As I've said before, my youngest brother is in a wheelchair and is mentally deficient due to a car accident. He wasn't doing anything wrong, just driving along and someone just jumped the median and hit him. In an instant his life as he knew it was 'over'. Our first child was lost to miscarriage...his/her little heart just stopped. No warning, no reason. A 20 year old just lost her life by drowning yesterday. And the list goes on. My purpose is not to depress everyone...just to simply say, very frankly, I can't understand the difference between God's 'causing' something and God's 'allowing' something. In essence, what's the difference. We all know He's omnipotent and COULD have stopped this stuff from happening, but didn't. Now, I understand that His purposes are bigger than mine. I embrace that. I understand that He has a plan. I embrace that too. I even am willing to trust when it hurts so much. I wholeheartedly believe that this is just a speck in the scope of eternity and His rewards are sure...He has us in the palm of His hands and that He stores our tears in a bottle as the Psalms say... But again, what really is the difference between what I mentioned above? Is it simply that God is not the author of evil and therefore cannot cause evil? If so, how do we know that my baby being lost is evil? How do we know that it wasn't caused by God in His divine Wisdom? Can we always know what has been caused by evil? Is the whole point to focus, focus, focus on Jesus? I know I'd like to put this whole thing in a tidy little box with a ribbon on top (SDA upbringing), and maybe there simply is not a complete answer, but you all have so much wisdom. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Sincerely, Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2434 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dear Patria, I don't know the complete answers to your questions. And yes, if God is sovereign, then we have to say that "allowing" something makes it ultimately His responsibility. Something Elizabeth Inrig said in a class has stuck with me for several years now. She said that we aren't always able to acknowledge this truth, but God is the ultimate "value" in the universe. It's not the saving of nations or even a child's life; it's God and His glory. As humans we tend to see everything as it relates to us, but our limited persepctive doesn't see eternity or Who God really is. In the story of Job, he lost all his wealth AND his first 10 children. While it's true that God restored his wealth and health and gave him 10 more children, he did not get those first 10 returned to him. Those he permanently lost--for what? According the to book of Job, he lost them as part of what God allowed to happen because of a challenge in the spiritual realm. Job could not see Satan's challenge nor God's permission. There are two outcomes of the story of Job, however; one is told, and one is implied. The first is that, unlike what we were taught in Adventism, the story of Job is not primarily a story to show that God permits Satan to touch within His will. While that is part of the story, the real point of the story was that in the last chapter, Job the righteous man--who believed himself to be guiltless when he friends accused him--humbled himself in dust and ashes before God. Even the "righteous" Job had to repent before the holy God. No one can presume to think they are deserving of God's favor and blessing. God used Satan's challenge as a vehicle for bringing Job to repentance and humility before Him. Job never looked at huis own righteousness or God's holiness the same way again, I'm sure. Second, there is the suggestion that Job may not have lost his 10 children eternally. Job couldn't have known their eternal outcome, because life and immortality had not yet been revealed through Jesus conquering death. For us, there really is no tidy answer. We see incompletely. What we know is that God reveals Himself to us, and we can trust Him. Sometimes all we know is that we can trust Him; there is little physical evidence to reassure us. Ultimately, however, our purpose is to glorify God, and no human life is as worthy as God's glory. That's a tough fact to swallow, but Biblically it's true. As we trust Jesus and surrender to Him, more and more His worthiness becomes apparent. God works out all things for the good of those who love Him, and nothing can separate us from the love of God. I know it must sound awfully glib, but I do not mean this glibly. God redeems everything we submit to Him, and he heals us and grows us in Him as He glorifies Himself. I pray that God will protect meóusófrom deception and arrogance. I pray that He will glorify Himself though me and though us. I thank Him that He gives us a part in His story, and that our part has eternal consequences. I praise Him for adopting us as His children and for making us joint heirs with Christ. Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2005 |
Our church had a guest speaker yesterday, Kyle Idleman, who spoke on Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." and how trite that verse is when used with people who are really hurting! Kind of like ìNo Pain No Gainî! The main thing I got from the message that I will hold on to is that God's definition of "For Good" and mine are completely different! And that many gazillion years from now the experiences we deal with on this earth will be a VERY distant memory. Brian | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1006 Registered: 7-2003  |
Boy do I know that question too! I'm reminded of the story in scripture where the disciples asked Jesus who had sinned the blind man or his parents, and Jesus said neither, but what happened was for God's glory. (very liberal paraphrase). For whatever reason, God has chosen to use my daughter to teach those who encounter her something they could not have learned otherwise. I often tell people I understand something about God's unconditional love in a new way because I love my daughter when much of the world would lock her away. She is not pretty (she has a disorder that makes her hair break off...including eyelashes, eyebrows, etc...very odd looking girl). She drools and is autistic and at 15 is still in diapers over night.... You get the picture. I have learned a strange sort of peace that my little girl and I will have an eternity because I don't think she'll ever be mentally capable of making a choice for Christ. I have been through the times of feeling sorry for myself and this extraordinary burden (and make no mistake, it is a burden). I do not "rejoice" for this opportunity to serve God's purposes in this way, but I am learning a contentment and a sense of resignation that God will not heal her and that whatever her life is, and what that requires of me....if God put me on this earth to be Rachel's mother, and to help care for her as long as I can ... and that's what he has wanted for me, who am I to know differently? I envy people that can take their daughters to the store and get clothes, try hair styles and have long chats. The best chat I have with my daughter relates to fantasy horses which like to lick her when she feeds them apples. I don't know why. Frankly, some of the things people argue over seem so petty given my challenges with Rachel. But I do know that I signed on to be a Christian for the good and bad. I often think of Job, as Colleen so graciously described. And I am by no means righteous beyond that which Christ gives. Some days, I'm a better witness than others. Faith sure is easy when there aren't so many trials. I don't have any "answers", just know some of the insights I KNOW I've had because of Rachel. How sad it is to me she has to suffer as she does to teach me something. But I truly hang on to the knowledge that I get her for eternity and in my own mind, I imagine having all those girl-chats and things that we can't now...be it Biblical or not. I know it has certainly grown my personal depth. It's amazing how many shallow people exist out there that don't know what to do when crisis hits. Those are my insights for today.... | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 684 Registered: 3-2005 |
Melissa, I think what you are describing is Biblical. I definitely believe all infants who die, and people not competent to make a choice will be covered by God's amazing grace. Patria, these are not easy questions, but the above posters have given Biblical answers. We can only know in eternity sometimes how God did work out everything according to His purposes, Stan | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2004 |
Patria, Do you know that 20 year old? Because I had her as a student when she was in high school (if we are talking about the same one) just wondering if we know each other/where you are from ect......I dont know what the proper procedure is to exchange email adresses...........Anyway I to have struggled with those same questions......I lost my sister to a hayride accident in high school and also lost my first son in a premature delivery.......I have a hard time thinking that God would instigate those things to happen......yet if He allows it isnt that the same? I dont have any answers, I just struggle with this at times and in the end I say God is bigger and better...........but that is hard to do............Hope to hear back from you | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2005 |
HI everyone, I lost my child through a miscarriage 2 years ago and I asked that very same question. My conclusions are personal, so please, be not offended inthe way I am stating what I am about to say. If my child had lived, I would be QUITE a different person. I belive that the Lord gives and the Lord takes...but He is BLESSED anyhow. I grew up a LOT after that experience...but I also moved into the town I am in now, developed some lifelong relationships and have truly become more sensitive and thoughtful in regards to others...my experience changed me in ways that no book or lecture ever could. I cannot say that anyone's experiences in loss was purely centered on evil...one thing I know, God is always in control, He knows the end of a thing before it even begins and all things work together for good... My words may not give an answer, but this is how I have come to understand my own loss. I believe the Lord permitted this...simply because He knew ahead of time. I do not believe He authors evil, but He does state in Isaiah that it is He that created the blacksmith that forges the iron that creates the weapons that are formed against us. In essence, His hand is in all things and if someone is taken from us...it is permitted, allowed, okayed by Him. No matter how we view it, GOd is not unaware of the lives that end abruptly on this earth. He is not guessing at our end....He knew it before the foundation of this world. Forgive me if I have offended anyone. But this is the mind that I live in and knowing that He knew what would be before it was...actually gives me comfort. My mom asked me, (this morning) "Since God knows all, how could He have made Lucifer, knowing what he would do?" My reply "If you knew before you were pregnant with me that I would do the horrific things I have done...that I would prove to be an embarrassment to the family for a NUMBER of years...that my words would wound you....crush your spirit due to my drug addiction...mama, would you still have had me?" Her reply "Yes, I still would have." Me "why?" Her "Because I love you sweetheart." Me "Exactly. God still loved His creation...despite the ugliness that ensued because of his fall." No easy answers I suppose. My penny.  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2441 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, as always, you inspire me and move me with your hard-won insight and your faith. And Shontay, thank you for sharing more of your personal story. To be able to hang onto faith after life-shattering events is an act of God's grace in our lives. I realize, when I begin thinking about this subject, that ultimately I have to acknowledge that God doesn't stand back and allow this pain to happen to us while he observes us from a more pleasant place. He put Himself, in the Person of Jesus, here to bear not only our sin but our pain. I know I've said this before, but when I watched the Passion of the Christ, I realized, during that horrific scourging scene, that Jesus not only bore our inherent sin and the sin we have committed, but he quite literally bore the sins others have committed against us. He bore our pain. By His suffering He has redeemed us not only from our sin but from the abuse and suffering we have endured that were not remotely our fault. So, however difficult it is to understand how God allows suffering, we still have the wonderful text in Hebrews 2:17-18 that reminds us that Jesus suffered in every way we have suffered, and His pain is for the purpose of His being our merciful, faithful high priest. I don't have the answers, but I know that whatever happens, He wastes nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 242 Registered: 1-2003  |
Melissa and Taybie thanks so much for sharing of yourselves and how God is working in and through you. My loses have been different than yours (brother dying) but in a small way I can identify with what you are saying. I know I serve a sovereign and loving God who lifts me up and guards and protects me. His ways are not my ways but I trust in Him. Richard | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen: You said this: "Ultimately, however, our purpose is to glorify God, and no human life is as worthy as God's glory." Boy, that hit home with me. Yes, it is hard, but I agree, it is true. I want to respond to everything you said, but suffice it to say, I think you should write a book. You are so eloquent...and more importantly, provide Biblically sound answers in an eloquent way. THANK YOU. Melissa: Thank you. You are an amazing woman and I am grateful to have an insight into your heart. I am certain you are called 'blessed' by our Redeemer. Shontay: Thank you too, for sharing a part of your heart. I have no doubt, and have even felt joy, that God uses my suffering to speak to others. No offense whatsoever! | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2005 |
Schasc: I knew the family when they lived in the Denver area. Do you live here? I'd LOVE to know if you do. There seems to be a very large lack of former SDAs in this area. Colleen has my email address and please feel free to email me anytime! (I think that's the proper procedure.) Patria | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2004 |
HI Patria, I sent Colleen a request for your email or for her to send mine to you.........Do you live in the Seattle area? We live in Walla Walla.....actually went to Jenda's funeral yesterday.......it was very sad and yet there was times to laugh since Jenda had such a way about her and people were recounting those memories........anyway hope to hear from sometime |
