| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 651 Registered: 3-2005 |
We had an excellent discussion recently on Reformed theology. But many of us who are former Adventists left Adventism because of its unbiblical adherence to the old covenant and 10 commandments. We had a couple of excellent articles in the last two Proclamations on New Covenant theology. On the Reformed theology thread many of us pointed out the inconsistencies of traditional Reformed theologians such as R.C. Sproul, Michael Horton, and the majority of Reformed scholars who still adhere to the artificial separation of moral and ceremonial law, and their continued support of the decalogue and Sabbath transference to Sunday. This has been frustrating to me since I believe in a full Reformed view on salvation, but cannot accept the traditional Reformed view of the covenants. As former Adventists, I am sure we have all had this experience of noticing the confusion in various churches over the 10 commandments and Sunday Sabbath. So, I was delighted to learn of some groups who are endeavoring to become Biblically precise on the meaning of the New Covenant. There is a group at the following link www.ptitx.org/News/whatis-NTC.htm They are fully Reformed on salvation but are trying to bridge the gaps between traditional Covenant theology and Dispensational theology by creating a dialogue on this topic. At that link above, there is a short summary on their mission and a good overview of what NCT is. Another web site www.soundofgrace.com was posted on the Reformed thread. John G. Reisinger who is well respected by the traditional Reformed types has a whole lot of great material on the New Covenant. There is one specific link however that is excellent as one of his books about the decalogue is posted there www.soundofgrace.com/tablets/tos.html If you scroll down on the left side to chapter six, which is on the Sabbath and is very good comparing the sign of the New Covenant-The Lord's Supper to the sign of the Old Covenant-Sabbath. And towards the end of the article Reisinger actually asks people to imagine that they are a SDA. After he talks about the beauty of the Lord's supper, then he contrasts the scene with being an SDA by saying, "What a different feeling we would get if we were SDAs and "remembered" the reason for our worshipping on Saturday instead of the Lord's Day? We would think of God our Creator and Law Giver, and the law covenant written on the Tablets of the Covenant. Our meeting on Saturday would be honoring the sign of the covenant under which we were worshipping. We would remind ourselves of the just covenant claims that He demanded of us. The Tablets of Stone would still be the written code against us because of our sin. As our minds went back to the 10 commandments we would smell the smoke from Sinai and hear its terrible thunder and roar. However, this is the EXACT EXPERIENCE that Sinai was SUPPOSED TO PRODUCE in the conscience of those who were under it as a covenant!" There is a hymn that has a phrase in it "Christ has quenched Mt. Sinai's flame" I am sure thankful that is the case. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2410 Registered: 12-2003  |
Interesting post, Stan. I'm happy to see that there are some Reformed theologians who are addressing the covenant issue. Sometimes it seems that the minute we classify an idea or understanding with a name, it becomes, like the 10 Commandments, written in stone. There needs to be room to breathe and grow; our loyalty must be to Jesus and His revealed word rather than to an "ism". We who have jettisoned "Adventism" know this well! Interesting thoughts, Stan. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 609 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Stan, Let me express my gratitude for this post. I'm still going to have to read all of the URL's that you have embedded in your post, but the first one on NCT is a treasure because it so clearly encapsulates the relationship that now exists for believers because of the gift of life through the blood of Jesus Christ. I've printed out that list, with its scriptural references, and intend to keep it with me at all times so that I can have it to refer to when I encounter my SDA friends and family. I'm terrible at remembering text references, so it will help to have a print-out that lists the basic ones. God bless you and your research. I don't know how you do it and maintain you patients at the same time, but I'm so glad that you do. Belva | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 520 Registered: 7-2004 |
Stan, You guys may have covered Dispensationalism on the Reformed thread but I was wondering if you could give a brief description of what it is. Before I start BSF 7 years ago, the SDA pastor told me to be careful because "they will suck you into Dispensationalism." At the time I did not want to argue with him or show my ignorance so I just nodded my head and said, "Oh really". You said that it is closely related to the New Covenant Theology (if that's what you mean by "bridging the gap"). What BSF taught me was that there is nothing I can do of my own power to earn my salvation, that God is sovereign and that through His birth, life, death and resurrection I have complete assurance of my salvation based entirely on my belief (faith) which is a gift from God. If this is Dispensational Theology then I guess the SDA pastor knew what he was talking about!  | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 982 Registered: 7-2003  |
Dd, New Covenant Theology (NCT) is neither Covenant Theology (CT) or Dispensational Theology (DT). I think most New Covenant Thelogians would say that NCT is not a middle ground or an attempt to merge CT and DT either. Rather, NCT arises from a reading of the Bible that attempts to develop theology using strictly Biblical terms and concepts. The fact that NCT theology might have some common points with CT and/or DT should not lead one to think it is an amalgamation of the two. NCT is truly a third way.
Here's a neutral encyclopedia link with a definition of DT that might help you: Dispensationalism I have also found this page very helpful in understanding some of the similarities and difference between the three systems mentioned above (even the page is a bit ugly it's packed with concise info): A Comparison of Three Systems Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 983 Registered: 7-2003 |
Here's the Reisinger quote I really wanted for my post above, but couldn't readily locate.....I should have spent a few more minutes searching I guess....... :-)
Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 653 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Thanks. You beat me to it, as I was just ready to post some of the same links. Thanks also for those Reisinger quotes. He is the author on that link to the tables of stone book on the decalogue listed above. I just finished reading the whole on-line book. It is very readable and thought provoking. It is one of the best of the non-former SDAs treatment on the Decalogue, and Chapter two has a very interesting discussion of the two versions of the decalogue that is in somewhat a different light than I have seen before. That quote above is one of the most refreshing I have ever read. His emphasis on being Biblical regardless of what your favorite theological system happens to be really rings true. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2412 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thank you so much for the quotes. I think I remember your posting them many months ago, but for some reason they impacted me even more today. Reading them helps me understand why Christianity seems to have so much trouble understanding the New Covenant: it has been "wallowing" for years in theology based in certain traditions: Westminster Confession, Dispensationalism, Covenant Theology, etc. What I love about the Reisinger quotes is that he states that they approached the Bible from Genesis to Revelation using the NT as the lens through which to see everything. They didn't use preconceived understandings to guide them. Using the NT as the interpretive "tool" is strictly Scriptural; Hebrews clarifies so specifically how Jesus fulfilled ALL the OT shadows. It's been a recurring thought in my head lately that by blurring the new covenant, Satan has effectively limited the power of the gospel. A huge percentage of Christians do not understand the freedom, liberty, and divine power they have in Christ--and I'm not talking about pentecostal manifestations. They just don't understand what it means to live by the Spirit--the heart of Romans--and I believe this blurring is because of the various "pet" theological interpretations that have sprung up which do not see Jesus as the pinnacle and fulfillment of the entire Bible. His "is it biblical" guideline is the only one that is dependable. In fact, I resort to commentaries as my last route when I'm sutdying. I want to know what the Bible says inductively. If I have questions, I'll look for definitions and linguistic clarity in a Bible dictionary next, in most cases. Last, I'll check my conclusions with an evangelical commentator such as J. Vernon McGee, etc (and I know he's dispensational). Thanks again for sharing the quotes, Chris. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 927 Registered: 10-2004  |
I found this quote interesting:
I've found it fascinating what the The Discovery Bible: New American Standard New Testament says about the Greek words for "new." For "34a" kainos (Strong's #2537), it says:
For "34b" neos (Strongs #3501b), it says:
And the summary says:
For the phrase "New Covenant," the word kainos ("34a") is used throughout the NT in the following passages: Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 8:8 (quoting Jeremiah 31:31), Hebrews 8:13, and Hebrews 9:15. The word neos ("34b") is used in Hebrews 12:24. This means that the New Covenant is put forward multiple times in the NT as something which does NOT have the same ingredients or the same substance as the Old Covenant! It is completely new and different. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 16, 2005) | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 521 Registered: 7-2004 |
OK...what are Adventists? I don't see where they are set DISP or CT. Are SDAs mostly worried about DISP because of The Rapture? After 7 years of BSF, I see their study as mostly NC but still with a twist of CT - THis last year we studied Hebrews and it was clear that the NC is their belief...even when we went into James they held firm that salvation does not include the works of a Christian. This coming year I begin my "graduate" studies (I am starting the seven year study of the Bible over again). We are studying Genesis this year. What I remember of this study before is that it did not conflict with my SDA beliefs (which leads me to believe they are not strictly NC). I am interested in doing the study again as a NC Christian. It will open up a whole new way of studying Genesis, I think. I praise God that He has lifted the veil over my eyes. I agree with Colleen. I use to study with a commentary right beside me. I have replaced it with prayer and the Holy Spirit. It's the best way to study. Thanks for the sites and references and your insight Chris, Stan, Colleen and Jeremy. I love picking your knowledgable brains. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 654 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dd, I think SDAs would identify with the covenant theology most closely. That is why Desmond Ford quotes Reformed theologians to support the idea that the Sabbath and the Decalogue was not done away. In some ways SDAs are most consistent in that if it is true that the Decalogue is still binding then let's keep the Sabbath. That is why I have a real problem with the traditional Reformed theologians such as Sproul on this very point. Yes, Sproul is right in my opinion that salvation is all of grace, but is wrong on his understanding of the old covenant. John Reisinger points out this inconsistency in his online book linked above. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2004  |
Stan, I would tend to agree that SDAs are more closely CT than DT. And that SDA are right, the logical conclusion of an emphasis on the Decalogue remaining binding on Christians is the 7th Day Sabbath. DD, Just because a group teaches that salvation does not include the works of a Christian does not mean that they teach NCT. As Stan mentioned, Sproul (and even the whole Reformed Theology) is a great example. Sproul is dead-on when it comes to explaining grace apart from works. He argues that this point is the Gospel and that any church teaching something else is a false Gospel. In spite of this understanding, he is still firmly a CT rather than a NCT. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 984 Registered: 7-2003 |
Interesting observations on kainos and neos Jeremy. Thank you. Stan and Ric, you are absolutely right. The logical outcome of CT is Sabbatarianism. Nearly all Covenant Theologians, including RC Sproul, are Sabbatarians. They just happen to be Sabbatarians of the Sunday stripe.....something which I think is even harder to defend biblically and consistently than Saturday Sabbatarianism. The SDAs are right on this. If covenant theology is correct, then observance of Saturday Sabbath is a requirement of Christians. Chris | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 985 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dd, It's true that SDAs disagree with the idea of a pretribulation rapture and a two phased second coming. [I personally think they are right to disagree with a two phased second coming as it cannot be found in scripture without committing a good deal of isegesis based on a preconceived pretext....but I digress] However, I don't think the pre-trib rapture is the main thing that worries SDAs about dispensationalism as a system. I think SDA theologians would primarily disagree with the stark seperation of Israel and the Church and the stark difference between the Jewish dispensation and the Church dispensation. If you draw a bright line between Israel and the Church, between Jews and Christians, then a lot of SDA theology falls, most notably observance of the Jewish Sabbath by Christians. Chris | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2005 |
Chris, (or anybody) Do have any links to pertinent bible studies on the rapture and second coming? mrsbrian3 and I are currently visiting different churches in our area to find a new church home. We like the one we have gone to for the last 2 Wednesdays and Sundays and while they donít make a certain belief on the rapture or end times a ìSalvationî or ìMembershipî issue the senior pastor seems to endorse it ( http://shorl.com/gystegubyjomo ) Thanks, Brian | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 986 Registered: 7-2003 |
Brian3, I don't think this is something to divide over. One of my favorite churches in town is Lincoln Berean. It is a dipensational church. I attended there regularly at one point, still visit often, and take occasional classes there. The minister, Bryan Clark, is awesome and I agree with him on a host of issues, eschatology just doesn't happen to be one of them. I think I could probably be happy in a dispensational church as long as it wasn't a test of fellowship. If I were you I wouldn't rule out dispensational churches because dispensationalism is the majority report within conservative evangelical Christianity in North America. Many, if not most, of the best Bible churches are dispensational. I am providing a link to an awsome teaching series on eschatology. It's by Steve Gregg the editor of "Revelation: Four Views". You can download all the mp3 files for free! I think Gregg does a pretty good job of interacting with all the major end times views that are prevalent today. He strikes me as fair and even handed even though he certainly argues strongly for his particular point of view. Even if you don't agree with him you'll learn A LOT about the various eschatological interpretive models. Here's the link: WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? (Just scroll down until you see the Tape Series with the title above) I hope this helps! Chris (Message edited by Chris on August 17, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 655 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have periodically attended a traditional Reformed church here in Anaheim pastored by Kim Riddlebarger, (one of the hosts of the White Horse Inn radio show www.whitehorseinn.org he and Michael Horton both disagree with the Lutheran pastor Rod Rosenblatt on that show about Sabbatarianism and the decalogue) and this church shares a sanctuary with the Anaheim SDA church. At one point I felt I needed to ask Riddlebarger about this problem. He even said in his Sunday sermon that the Sabbath was a creation ordinance, and I thought it ironic that I was sitting in an SDA church listening to this. The only explanation the Sunday Sabbatarians seem to come up with is to continue the distinction between moral and ceremonial law. They say the 7th dayness of the Sabbath is ceremonial, and that the decalogue speaks of the general principle of one day in seven, and because of the Resurrection on Sunday, and the day of Pentecost falling on a Sunday, then this principle is now transferred to Sunday. It sounds illogical to me. That is why I was happy to find Reisinger's book on the Decalogue(since he is Reformed and dialogues regularly with the traditional types) so that maybe a reasonable dialogue might change the thinking of some of these people who are so steeped in the tradition of the Westminster Confession. I have found however that the practical result of their belief in Sunday and the decalogue at this Anaheim church makes very little practical difference. They are still grace based, and have no legalistic rules about Sunday sacredness. However there is legalistic tendencies among many churches who hold to these Old Covenant ideas. Stan | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2005 |
To Dd: On the BSF study, year before last on the Minor prophets, they did talk about a special place at the second coming for the Jews, so maybe they have mixed a little dispensational belief in with the NC--I wasn't always able to attend due to illness, and my leader was notoriously bad about getting the lessons I had missed to me, so I may not have the whole picture.Did you pick that up? Catagorizing "truth" is new to me, so I am still scrambling to follow!! I find it pretty essential though. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 987 Registered: 7-2003 |
Stan, I think you touched on the root of the problem. Since Sabbatarianism is codefied in the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF), it is nearly impossible for most Reformed ministers (many of which have to sign a statement agreeing to adhere to the WCF) to publicly take any other view. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2416 Registered: 12-2003 |
Brian3 and MrsBrian3: I agree wholeheartedly with Chris when he says not necessarily to rule out a church that is dispensational. Actually, without having specific statistics to support my impression, it seems to me that renewed interest in NCT is a relatively recent phenomenon. Dispensational theology has had a profound impact on evangelicalism, and seminaries such as Dallas Theological Seminary have had a significant influence on its widespread acceptance. As Chris pointed out, though, the Dispensationalists are often the most skilled Bible teachers and are most grounded in sound Bible interpretation. One doesn't have to agree with their view of eschatology to worship and fellowship as brothers in Christ; they are usually rooted soundly in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus alone, and they teach Jesus. Our pastor and his wife tend to be dispensationalists, and they both have degrees from Dallas. Gary, however, has publicly stated that the more he studies, the less certain he is in a pre-trib rapture. They both, however, have a very clear view of the atonement, of salvation, Jesus, the cross, and the fulfillment of the OT in the person and work of Jesus. Perhaps partly because they have so many SDAs and former SDAs attending their church, often incognito, Gary has noticably changed the way he talks about the law and the Sabbath over the past 10 years. All this is to say, an honest pastor who loves the Lord and honors His word will direct his congregation to Jesus, and he will also continue to grow in his own understanding. I do believe that we as former Adventists have a unique understanding that God intends for us to share with the Christian world. NCT really gets to the heart of Jesus as the complete fulfillment of the law, and we who took covenant theology most seriously by observing Sabbath have a precious gift from God. We see that either the entire law had to be nailed to the cross in the person of Jesus (as McGregor Wright explained so well in his article in the latest Proclamation), or we must keep the Sabbath. As Dr. Wright said, however, Jesus, the living Torah, died on the cross, the complete embodiment of perfect law-keeping and the Source of the law. He rose from the dead having fulfilled all of the law, and He now is the living Law who inhabits us. God is using the evangelical world to teach and heal us and to give us a bigger, more complete understanding of the Bible and how it fits together as a whole. We, on the other hand, are being sent into Christian churches to share our understanding of the New Covenant. God is amazingóthe way He brings light, truth, freedom in His own time, and the way He puts people together to help each other grow! Colleen |
