| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2005 |
This Saturday I have a talk with one of my friends at church. He recognized that Investigative Judgment doesn't harmonize with the gospel, but still struggles with the fact that this doctrine was nothing else than a "face saving" solution to a delusion. At the end of the conversation he said: "The IJ is somehow far away from us, in the heaven, can't verify it. But, if the Sunday law will be imposed we will have a real, earthly issue, which can be verified. And if adventism is right on this point, everything is right, including IJ" I was a little bit shocked, but my reply was to question him how an unscriptural doctrine can become truth. He just reiterated his thesis, and said that after all the interpretation of prophecy by evangelicals is worse compared with SDA. At this point, I had nothing to say because I'm neither a preterist, or a futurist, neither historicist. I don't study the alternative views of prophecy. After this discussion I appreciate if someone can help me, not necessarily in the domain of prophecy, but in the handling of the issues. It seems that because I don't know what to say in this domain, what I believe about the gospel, IJ, can not be fully trusted, even if the Bible sustain my belief. Jackob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 616 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Jackob, The good news is that you can prove absolutely from scripture that worship on a certain 24 hour period on this round world cannot and will never be a test of loyalty to God. Because, if keeping the Sabbath is a test, then Paul was a liar when he wrote Rom. 14:5,6 and Col. 2:16,17. Even if there was a remote possibility of a national Sunday law in this country--which would be most unthinkable in this increasing pluralistic society--it would still prove absolutely nothing. Can you imagine a national Sunday law in a Muslim country? This whole eschatological schema is so far fetched, that it makes other bad eschatology in other evangelical churches look good. It is interesting that your friend admits in theory that the IJ is unbiblical, but when it comes right down to it, he is still allowing EGW to trump the Bible. This is why Adventism is another gospel, because they have another authority, and it is not the Bible! I do believe too much attention is placed on eschatology in general in evangelicalism today, because so much of it is speculation, and so much time is spent studying it that it only subtracts from preaching the centrality of the cross. On another thread, D.A. Carson is quoted as saying that 'any preaching on peripheral issues that detracts from the centrality of the cross can become idolatrous. For SDAs, eschatology has been there God, but when you consider the popularity of the "Left Behind" series, I wonder if pre-trib rapture belief has also become a god to some. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 911 Registered: 10-2004  |
I agree with Stan that a "Sunday Law" would not prove Adventism right. In fact, the Bible tells us that we are under a moral obligation to keep the Sunday Law, should the government impose one (Romans 13:1-7). Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2005 |
Stan and Jeremy, I appreciate your comments, I'd like to give additional information, becaue Stan brought the subject of another authority. From my friend point of view, Sunday law will be the proof that Ellen White was a real prophet, because she could predict that. He didn't said this, but this is what he thinks, I'm sure. But, he has a little "liberal" view of inspiration of the Bible, that the Bible containes errors, and not everything which is written in it is truth. What is truth in the Bible can't make the errors to become truth, in his opinion. Not all is truth. But, when it comes to Ellen White and adventism, it seems that he has a correct view of inspiration, if Ellen is inspired, all is truth. But, here again, he admits that Ellen White attacked Ballenger without foundation, pretending inspiration. Until yesterday I thought about him that he has a liberal view of Ellen WHite inspiration. Now I'm totally confused, because he contradicts himself, and I don't know what he really beleives. Has anyone the same problem, it's like I'm spoking with two different persons. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 618 Registered: 3-2005 |
Until God removes the veil from their eyes, Jackob, this is going to be the mindset of most SDAs. They pick and choose what they want to believe, with no coherent doctrine of inspiration. Whether it is a JW, a Mormon, SDA, or even some extreme pentecostals who get false doctrine through visions and dreams, these people all have a different authority than the Bible alone. It is so marvelous to see a whole coherent view of the plan of salvation from Genesis to Revelation. When you apply sensible rules of interpretation to scripture, then you can start to see the whole view of God working sovereignly through history to redeem us. We know how the book ends. We don't have to be worrying about what comes next in our eschatological schema. I believe that the Bible teaches that Christ could come in the clouds to take us home at anytime. That is true if you are a preterist like me, or whether you believe in the pre-trib rapture, it simply makes no difference. One thing I know for sure, there will be no final test as to what 24 hour day you keep on this round world if Romans 14 is true, and I know without a doubt that it is true. What a blessed hope we have! Stan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yes, Stan, the veil is still there, and until is removed, nothing changes. All we haeve to do is to pray without ceasing, for God to remove the veil. I will pray including myself, because I'm painfully aware that I have many blind spots. Jackob | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 746 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jackob, Yes, it is as Stan wrote; most SDA's "pick & choose" what they believe of Ellen White...ending up "with no coherent doctrine of inspiration." Many who do not follow her "counsel" on health and other lifestyle issues (instead regulating her to a position of a somewhat embarrassing at times, fanatical grandmother) would still argue against calling her a FALSE PROPHET. These liberal/cultural/social Adventists feel that the "good" writings of hers somehow outweigh the nonsence and downright evil things she wrote and said, not acknowledging that God would not be the author of the spiritual lies that undergird Ellen White and her claim to be God's "messenger". This is where she differs from others who teach mixed-up doctrines, I feel...saying that her words, visions, books came from GOD--or at least that "angel guide". grace always, cindy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 913 Registered: 10-2004 |
Such as this guide? "The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." (Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 11-04-1875, paragraph 1.) Heh. I've been posting similar stuff over on the Spectrum forum today... Creepy. Jackob, that's unfortunate that your friend believes that a Sunday law would prove Ellen to be a true prophet. A prophet has to be right in ALL of their predictions. A false prophet or psychic is bound to get some of their predictions right. She has so many failed predictions (here is a list of just some examples) and so few (none?) fulfilled predictions that she fails more miserably than most false prophets and psychics! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 07, 2005) | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 747 Registered: 7-2000 |
Oooh, that IS creepy, Jeremy! At one time we had all those "Review & Herald" Ellen White articles--large books, I remember. But alas, 6 years ago we tossed them out with all the other ones from her...just felt we needed to purge our library from all that weird stuff. grace, cindy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 620 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Good job today with all those quotes on the Spectrum forum. I think Pastor Larson really didn't know how to answer them. If you are interested in reading Jeremy's quotes, there are an amazing collection of them at www.spectrummagazine.org/phpbb and you click on the EGW thread. They are especially on pp 4,5. Stan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2005 |
In the case of my friend, if he "pick & choose" this means that he believes that not all that Ellen White has written is truth. But in my last conversation with him, he said that, if a Sunday law will appear, this means that all that Ellen White has written is truth. What doctrine of inspiration he upholds? Pick & choose, or all or nothing? It seems that he actually don't believe in Ellen White, but he adopted the position "wait and see", and is ready to swing to the "winner" side. Have you meet someone with the same attitude? It's a very strange sort of spiritual bondage. Jackob | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 748 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yes, Jackob, I think there are many who basically ignore Ellen White now, but the spiritual bondage hold remains and is strong...too strong for them to dismiss her as a false prophet. And in the back of their mind, they have that "wait and see" mentality...ready to jump in with the "winning" side if those scary (persecution-of-the=7th-day-Saturday-keepers) "Sunday" laws come into affect. Not realizing they can already have that perfect rest and peace in Jesus...24/7. grace, cindy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2380 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jackob, Cindy and Jeremy and Stan are right in their analysis of Adventists and Ellen White. Your experience with your friend is absolutely typical. Let's theorize that a Sunday law DOES become passed. This event would no more prove Ellen is a true prophet than the appearance of Samuel proved the witch of Endor was of God. Truth is not predicated merely on whether or not events happen. Truth must align with the word of God. Satan, the father of lies, lives in a realm beyond our three dimensions. I'm sure he knows the plans he has for the future, at least. The fact that Satan can bring about certain things--with God's permission, of course--does not mean that He is truthful (remember Job?), nor does it mean that a false prophet who deals in lies and deception is of God. The only place we can look for our ground of truth is the word of God. Most Adventists do not truly believe the Bible is the reliable word of God, even though they give lip service to it. As you have seen with your friend, they rely on Ellen White more completely than they rely on the Bible. The possible, theoretical establishment of a Sunday law would not prove Ellen true. She has volumes to her credit that discount the deity of Jesus, the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, the incomplete atonement, the necessity of works to secure one's salvation--in short, she has written so much that contradicts of gospel of Jesus that even if her prophecies about the end times came true, she would not be a true prophet. A true prophet of God cannot receive messages or deliver messages that contradict the Bible and the gospel. The Bible is the ground of truth that determines whether or not a prophet is true. Ellen cannot be a true prophet, whether or not a Sunday law is enacted. Praise God for giving us His word! Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 750 Registered: 7-2000 |
Good point, Colleen! Whether or not a Sunday Law was ever passed... Ellen White is a false prophet based on so many other of her claims & teachings that contradict the gospel of Jesus. Just the REST that Christ offers us is in direct contrast to EGW's insistence on the 7th day/Saturday being "holy" and a "sign"/"seal" of a "true" follower of Jesus. grace, cindy | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy: I read your quotes on spectrum and your thoughts. Well done! I needed the reiteration as I'm headed into what will surely be a controversial week with my MIL. Please pray! And thanks again for the quotes. patria | ||
| Alnadean Registered user Username: Alnadean Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hi all, This is Al-Nadean I posted sometime last week- I have not been able to find where I posted. I did read the responses but could not reply immediately. Thanks for all your kind words. I will tell you how the floor fell out from under my feet when I find the page I started on. This wouldn't be the first time I've felt 'lost' so I should be used to it right now. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 128 Registered: 3-2005 |
You can find your posts by going to "Search" on the toolbar on the bottom on the screen. Then put in your name in the "Search For" field and put in "Names of Authors" in the drop down menu for the "Look In" field. Then put in the number of Days you want to go back, and hit "Perform Search". The topics you have written in will show up and then you can pick whichever one you want. I hope this helps! tisha |
