| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2000 |
Colleen and Stan, Stan, as you have hopefully read, this is the apostasy spoken of in Scripture, in answer to your question as to how Graham and maybe others can endorse Schuller or Warren for that matter. Colleen, when you had that moment of pause regarding 'entertainment and Christianity,' this article may also help you a little. You are not alone with that "pause" in your revelation that may be happening to you. I offer this article from a pastor out of many, for you both to take into consideration as well. God Bless you both. In Christ, Jesus of Nazareth. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2000 |
Silly me--guess it would help to add the article I spoke about. Here is that link: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/visit-saddlebackchurch.html | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 602 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, You post thought provoking links. I have never been to Saddleback church, even though I live in Orange County. I am curious enough though that i am going to have to attend to see if that account given on that very last link is true. I just wonder if they might be exaggerating just a little. Because, if it is as they say, then I would be concerned, but I will go myself in the near future and report back on this thread. As far as the previous links where they talk about the former New Ager Warren Smith who wrote the book "Deceived on Purpose", Smith tries to prove guilt by association. He spends a lot of time in that book showing where Robert Schuller is definitely connected with the New Age movement. Then he documents the friendship and support that Schuller has given Bill Hybels of Willow Creek and Rick Warren, and then tries to deduce from that the New Age connections of Rick Warren. Also Warren has been seen on stage with New Ager Ken Blanchard. So, I don't think that this is good evidence to then call Rick Warren New Age. Melissa was making a good point about the fact that once you get beyond the superficial stuff of 40 days of Purpose, then Warren's theology is actually orthodox. Are you ready for this? I just found out recently that Rick Warren is a professing TULIP Calvinist (another word that is almost as bad as New Age in some Arminian circles), and that he even listens to the White Horse Inn! When he wants to teach the Bible, he does very well. There is no way to compare Warren with Schuller. The latter has truly apostasized from his strong Biblical routes, and has twisted almost every doctrine. Schuller defines hell as "a loss of self esteem", and not literal punishment. Dan Smith of liberal Adventism would be very comfortable with Schuller. A larger question though with Rick Warren is not whether his teaching is heretical--because by all objective analysis it is not--but, what is the fruit of the Seeker Sensitive and church growth movement which Warren has been most influential in? There has bee some very thoughtful and objective analysis done by responsible apologists. I would like to give one link here for your review www.str.org/free/commentaries/misc_topics/seekerce.htm There is a legitimate concern that there is significant watering down of the gospel. For example, Jesus spends more time talking about hell than He does heaven. Paul starts ou the greatest treatise ever written on the glorious gospel in Romans 1, by talking about the wrath of God being poured out on sinners, so that then we can get an idea of what salvation is, and what we are being saved from. In a lot of the seeker sensitive churches, you don't hear anything about hell or the wrath of God. Also if the sermons are always on the love of God, and are tailored to be simple messages for the seekers, then what about the teaching of the "meat" of the word designed for building up the church and making disciples? The link above addresses these concerns in a pastoral way that is also thought provoking. Greg Koukl has been on the radio in So. Cal doing an apologetics radio show for over 15 years, and is the author of the piece. Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2004  |
In the link Stan posted above, it says near the end: I got the idea from this article that it's another case where the author thinks in only an "either/or" perspective. It has to be the old way of fiery guilt-inducing sermons or the message must have been changed to the shallow seeker-type service. Of the many churches we've visited looking for a church home, we've tried to avoid the shallow services as described by this article. Unfortunately, it seems so many of the churches we've attended go the opposite direction. It feels very uncomfortable to be in a church where all they can preach about is how we're not good enough and need to do better. The Christmas service we went to last December was incredibly disappointing, because instead of hearing how wonderful the gift of Jesus is, we heard how there is NO presence of God without our obedience (in the same vein as Santa won't bring you any presents if you're not good). The church we visited two weeks ago was the worst one of all, where the pastor was so stern in expression and voice, telling us how we need to be more concerned for God's work like Nehemiah was. The name of the church had "Grace" in it, but it wasn't until the last sentence we heard anything about grace. The last sentence said something about being thankful for God's grace, and it seemed so incredibly inapproriate compared to the rest of the sermon. We felt afterwards like we had been spanked for the entire lengthy sermon, and then told "but aren't you thankful you're loved." I really think in most of these churches who preach so sternly a "you better shape-up" message, they probably tell themselves, "oh well, if someone is uncomfortable it's probably because they needed to hear it." Excuse me, I just left a legalistic, false religion and have discovered the joy and freedom of living in Jesus. I want to celebrate that and learn how to move on, not continue getting beat up for my failures. On a brighter note, the church we attended last Sunday was absolutely the nicest one we've come across yet and we can't wait to go back! They seem to have balance, and Jesus and the Bible are the main theme of the service. Also, it's not too big, the sermon and music are both good, and they have a grape juice option with individual cups--all those little things that shouldn't be that important but we hoped to find, are there. The sermon was timely for us--it was about waiting patiently for God's timing and how God was probably using that waiting time to specifically grow and develop our Christian walk in some way. (Message edited by Raven on August 03, 2005) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 958 Registered: 7-2003  |
It seems to me that the best way to keep balance in preaching is to preach line by line through entire books of the Bible. This approach to preaching is balanced because scripture itself is balanced. If you spend half a year (or more) preaching through a whole book of the Bible then you will at one point or another preach through the whole range of thoughts and ideas that the author was conveying to his original audience. The epistles of Paul are models of balance. In many of his letters he praises his listeners for their strengths, rebukes them for their failures, exhorts them to grow, corrects false doctrine, sets forth doctrine, lifts up Christ, promulgates grace, calls for holiness, and urges unity......all in the same book! Now that would be a pretty balanced sermon series. Chris | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 282 Registered: 7-2004 |
That is a good point, Chris. However, the style and beliefs of the preacher will affect what is brought out in the sermon even if they are preached line by line through entire books. For example, the sermon I posted about that we heard two weeks ago, is from a church that does exactly that. They are now starting the book of Nehemiah. Instead of an inspiring sermon of how dedicated Nehemiah was to help solve the problems of the Israelites, he preached how terrible we are for not being as dedicated as Nehemiah was. His voice and facial expressions spoke to me that he considered all of the congregation as worthless and stupid. Yes, he went line by line. But his two cents that got added in around those lines were the problem. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 959 Registered: 7-2003 |
Very true Raven. It's certainly possible (and even common) to expound upon a passage in such a way that the main exegetical thought is either minimized or completely missed. I've heard it done and it's infuriating to say the least. Chris | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2001  |
To me the difference between "seeker-sensitive" and "traditional" churches (for lack of a better word) is more complicated than just preaching about mercy or justice. In my experience traditional sermons focus on abstract concepts such as this doctrine or that doctrine, while seeker-sensitive sermons are about more practical topics. For instance in my church we are finishing up a series on Talking -- talking to God, talking to others, even talking to ourselves (which was err, on self-esteem) Also seeker-sensitive churches, in general, are more laid-back, the buildings are less "churchy," the people are more dressed down (you never see anyone in a suit including the pastor) A lot of times food is served either before or after the service as a way to get people to mingle. When the offering plate is passed, the pastor says they aren't asking for money from the visitors. These churches also have quite a few community outreach activities to bring people to the church as well as "visitor Sundays." The last church I attended followed up with all visitors who filled out a visitor card by dropping by their house with a loaf of homemade bread and a kind word. I'm not saying traditional churches do none of these things or that seeker sensitive churches do all these things. I think these types of things are more prevelant in one church than another. About whether or not these things are good ... My last pastor used to say his church was a hospital for the spiritually hurting (and really, who isn't) not a social club for the perfect. Their sign in front of their church said "Come as you are and you will be loved." It was the perfect church for my husband to attend as he was transitioning out of adventism since he was only sporadically attending the adventist church even when he was an adventist because he felt like he couldn't live up to their standards. Still seeking, Hannah | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2004  |
We weren't always successful at screening churches before we visited. And because we prefer churches with a contemporary worship style, we visited a couple churches that I thought had taken the concepts a too far. In perhaps the most extreme case that we visited--the constantly swirling, moving, changing color lights were a major distraction to following the music--the sermon was essentially devoid of Scripture--the small group studies listed in the bulletin included the study of many books, but not a single one of these books was from the Bible--and the pastor was starting a sermon series from a book on "love languages". We didn't go back. We have already had our fill of sermons and studies from books other than Scripture. I'm not suggesting that I think it is a problem if a sermon is more topical that Scriptural. Or that it is a problem if a small group does a study from a book besides Scripture. It does; however, seem like a problem when nothing from the church seems to centered around Scripture (or around Christ). Being "seeker friendly" is great. But you also have to consider what is being found. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2364 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great points. Raven, I'm so glad you and Ric have finally visited a church you're eager to return to! It's a wonderful thing when that happens. And how interesting that the sermon was about God's timing including times of waiting--as you near what may be the end of a long time of transition and seeking. I've often observed that when people first attend a church where they will find a home, God often arranges for them to hear something that seems exactly for them from God, and He confirms His leading that way. I'm realizing how blessed we are at our churchówe have many of the "seeker-friendly" aspects Hannah mentioned above, but the worship time is always profound, and the preaching is deep yet accessible (how does he do that, anyway?) Biblical exposition that invariably brings the listener to Jesus and His call on our lives and His power to change us. Whether the sermons are from the OT or the NT, they always bring us back to living in Christ and by the power of Christ. I'm hoping many of you can come in February when we have the FAF "retreat" here and hear Gary for yourselves on Sunday! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 603 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven, I appreciated your comments above about Greg Koukl's article. There is an important balance to be struck. I don't think that Greg's piece was saying that we should be antagonistic to the unbeliever, or go out of our way to hit them over the head with damnation. I think he supports what Chris said above about expositional preaching, because that is the type of preaching Mr. Koukl has always supported. I would like to put that part of the quote you used in proper context of the whole paragraph, "Wonder why your church may not be prospering? Maybe because you haven't followed the directions. Fulfill the Great Commission. Go and make disciples. Sure, you have to evangelizeto do that. Go and evangelize, then bring them into the church and train them to be disciples that can go out and do evangelizing better. Fulfill the Great Commission. Don't change your church service into a seeker service so everyone can come in and feel comfortable. Frankly, non-Christians shouldn't feel comfortable in a church because they are not right with God yet; and if they are, its probably because we've changed the message." I think he does have a point. What is the purpose of the weekly service? Is it to evangelize to seekers? Or is it to equip the saints to go out and evangelize, make disciples, and then bring them in to equip them further? This question may not have an easy answer, and I am sure that even Mr. Koukl believes there are good seeker sensitive churches who try to do both. But, if you preach Christ and Him crucified in a non-compromising way, and if you preach that Jesus is the only way to salvation, then that message will make unbelievers uncomfortable as Koukl says. Stan | ||
| Melinda Registered user Username: Melinda Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2005 |
I thank God for His Holy Spirit leading us when we were looking for a church. The one we found has been such a blessing. Right now they are preaching through the book of Romans. It has been a blessing to hear the Word that way. In fact, last weeks sermon, "From the Lips and Heart" was one that all Adventists should here. You can listen to it online if you want: http://www.fefc-media.org/listen2.php | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 705 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, preaching the line-by-line through a book of the Bible can be most excellent, as you noted. However, it can also be pretty disconnected from what is happening in that body of believers at the moment. Everything needs to be done under the direction of the Holy Spirit. If a pastor locks in on the idea that he has begun to preach through a book (whether a book of the Bible or any outside book) and he is sticking to it no matter what, then I really would't want to sit and listen to him. I would has to question if he is working on his own agenda and not bothering to listen for the guidance of the Holy Spirit any more. Have known times where pastors, not only my own pastor now, but others from my childhood as well, have stood up to preach and found the Spirit directing them that the sermon they had worked so hard on all week long was not to be delivered now. They had to switch their subject rather quickly.. It certainly placed them in a listening mode with God, and the results were often that someone or many someones in the congregation were hit square on with what was said. By the way, the comment about the love languages book being used in a sermon. Got to tell you it is an excellent book and applies very well to body life and ministry to unbelievers. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 605 Registered: 3-2005 |
I think it was Chris who posted a Galatians verse by verse teaching link that many on this site have benefitted from, and now Melinda posts one that is verse by verse teaching through the book of Romans. This seems to be the way most teaching should be. I think Lydell does have a point that once in awhile it is appropriate to preach some specific message that God lays on the heart of a preacher for a specific time. I also think there is a place for good topical preaching. Charles Spurgeon did mostly topical preaching and many of them can be read online at www.spurgeon.org But Spurgeon filled London metro Tabernacle by preaching the unadulterated word of God. People flocked by the thousands to hear Spurgeon preach classical Christian doctrine. His object was not to make unbelievers feel good, or to minister to "felt needs", as the modern seeker movement is doing today, but to point them to a remedy to their lost condition-Salvation in Jesus Christ alone. This is the way the Apostles preached also. So why should the message be softened today? Maybe I am being too negative, but what do topical sermons on self esteem, or learning to talk to yourself as was described on one earlier post, have to do with what should be our primary focus in worship, and that is glorifying God? Some--not all--seeker centered services are man centered and not God centered. Has anyone listened to this young preacher out of Houston Joel Osteen? His best selling book is called "Living your best life now" and his church has just bought out a huge sports arena in Houston. From all accounts he gives great motivational talks, and in some ways has inherited a lot of Schuller style ministry with the gospel of self esteem. But where is the preaching of the offense of the cross? Yet this is the kind of preaaching that many "itching ears" want to hear today. The music issue is always an interesting and controversial issue. I am a big fan of praise and worship music, and listen to it in my car a lot. But, does anyone think that the pendulum may have swung too far in using loud drums and guitars, that then drown out the words? Why are churches abandoning hymns entirely? I am starting to see a trend back to hymns arranged in the praise music style which I think is very positive. There are so many rich treasures in traditional hymnody, that it is a shame to abandon them. Unfortunately, there is some praise and worship music with very shallow lyrics, and are very repetitious. I wonder how many churches would be filled today, if they went back to more traditional hymns? Stan | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 181 Registered: 6-2001 |
Isn't it the traditional churches, such as the Lutheran, Presbyterian etc. that are in decline while the Willow Creeks and the Evangelical Frees are growing by leaps and bounds? I'm not saying church growth is proof that they are the correct format, it is just in answer to your question, Stan. I think when you don't regularly hear sermons that you can apply to your life it becomes easy to compartmentalize your religion -- worship God at church but not in your everyday life. Another thought about doctrine. Because there are so many diverging viewpoints on most of the nonessential doctrines, I can see how it would be easier for seeker-sensitive pastors to not make those the subject of his sermons so as not to appear dogmatic and devisive. And as is hinted at on the systematic theology thread, non-essential doctrines (doctrinal beliefs not required for salvation) are devisive. Searching for unity, Hannah | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2005 |
I have been going through Coleen's studies on Romans, and that is line by line, and yet she brings in a lot of other verses as well. It is a great study, I'm just behind everyone else!! But I especially like it because in the SDA church, especially the Sabbath School lessons it seemed to me we skipped all over the place and never did get a feel of the context.I don't know how you do it Colleen, but I do appreciate your efforts. I went through Galations, but at a time when I was very ill, so didn't really rememberr a lot--that's what a lot of pain can do for you!! Any way thank you, Colleen, and thank God for all your efforts! Such a blessing. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 606 Registered: 3-2005 |
Benevento, Amen to your comments about Colleen's Romans' study. I have been privileged to be a member of that Fri. night study, and that is an example of what true inductive in depth Bible study is supposed to be. We take several weeks to cover about 6 verses, going back into the Old Testament and getting at the root of the meaning that Paul is teaching. This is especially good for former Adventists, and some are seeing for the first time the great doctrines of God's sovereignty in election that we have been studying in Rom. 9. Because, if former SDAs do not replace Adventism with something much more solid, then it is possible that they may drift away with every wind of doctrine. Hannah, The reason many Lutheran and Presbyterian churches are declining is because liberalism has set in. I would not put Evangelical Free in the same category as Willow Creek, because Ev frees grow, because they are very solid in teaching God's word. Charles Swindoll is an example of the solid Biblical teaching that you get. My only question for you would be how preaching a topical message on self talk or self esteem is helpful from a worship standpoint? Yes, I know those topics are non-threatening to unbelievers and churches are being filled using those kind of topics. But, is it Biblical? I'm sorry if I sound negative, and I haven't actually heard your church's sermons, so it may not be fair to judge. I am just asking questions when I see certain topics come up. Stan | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 706 Registered: 7-2000 |
Stan, I wouldn't agree, strictly speaking, that a sermon line on line from the Bible (or any other sermon for that matter) is "worship" at all. Rather "worship" is something that flows from our individual hearts, it is our magnifying God, honoring Him, thanking Him, and praising Him, giving Him glory as David did in the Psalms. Haven't heard the sermons you might be referring to, so I can only speak from experience for ones I have heard. A topical message on "self talk or self esteem" is incredibly useful to the believer in learning how to walk with the Lord. "Self-talk" absolutely is needed when facing hard times "I WILL trust the Lord. I WILL believe that God is who He says He is and is larger than this problem." Or "I WILL, with Christ's help, place my thoughts on things that are noble, right, honorable, true, and of good report instead of dwelling in negativity". "self-esteem" oh my goodness that one is huge. You can't possibly follow Christ's admonition to love your neighbor as yourself if you don't love yourself at all. A believer who is locked in a mindset of believing themselves to be worthless, unloveable, or incapable because of past abuse, for example, is hardly going to be an effective witness. Instead they keep their mouths shut, believing that they have no right to speak to others about the Lord until they are perfectly clean and mature in the faith. Christ has said they have value, they are loved, and that they can speak because of the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit now, before they are perfect examples of Christianity. Some people have stronger personalities and can grasp some of these realities of faith in Christ quickly, others need more specific instruction on exactly HOW to go about doing these things. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thank you Lydell, I would almost think you were there! One of the scripture references for that sermon (which i knew everyone was going to latch on to) I believe was Phil. 4:8. I have been enjoying the whole series. You are so right about what you said about worship. Actually the Bible extends the definition of worship even further Isaiah 58:6-8 (CEV) "I'll tell you what it really means to worship the LORD. Remove the chains of prisoners who are chained unjustly. Free those who are abused! Share your food with everyone who is hungry; share your home with the poor and homeless. Give clothes to those in need; don't turn away your relatives. Then your light will shine like the dawning sun, and you will quickly be healed." Stan, I'm not sure if you are inferring that Willow Creek churches are not grounded in the Word? Willow Creek is not a denomination per say, but an association. For instance my last church was Evangelical Free and Willow Creek. The church I am attending currently is Free Methodist and Willow Creek. Maybe you could clarify? Puzzled, Hannah | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2005 |
Maybe "study" and "worship and praise" are two different things. When I worked in the Junior room in an SDA church I felt that we didn't even begin to praise God enough, so I tried to include some praise in the program--I wasn't very good at it, hadn't had enough practice I told myself, but years later I asked my son who was in there at the time if he remembered any of those efforts. He didn't--all gone over his head. I'll bet if someone raised in an Evangical church went into a SS room they wouldn't leave any doubt about what they were trying to do. I think praise is included in study certainly--but maybe praise for itself is a little different? |
