| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 278 Registered: 7-2004  |
It's pretty clear to me from Scripture that Jesus rose on the "first day of the week." At one time many years ago, I heard of a reason the crucifixion definitely took place on Friday. The way I understand it, if a ceremonial Sabbath fell on a weekly Sabbath, it was called a "high Sabbath". John 19:31 says "because it was the day of preparation...(for that Sabbath was a high day)" Does anyone else know if that is an accurate understanding of "high day"? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 984 Registered: 7-2003  |
I've heard of the Wednesday/Thursday crucifixion and even have heard Church Swindoll mention it, but he says the day it happened isn't that relevant. The event is what is important. It's a little like Christmas plays that show the wisemen showing up at the manger, when the Bible says they came to the house. I personally get hung up on those details, though, and would prefer we be accurate, even if that means the Christmas play has one more scene, and is out of sync with the secular view of religious Christmas. ...But that's a different topic!  | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris, In reference to the six abberant doctrines mentioned above... I am still a member of the SDA church, although I guess I consider myself a "seeker of truth and a follower of Christ first. I have not studied all these issues in depth. Suffice to say standing openly against any ONE of them would put one's SDA standing in jeopardy. One thing that troubles me is the absolute "Final Authority" feeling that many on this forum seem to put in certain interpretations of doctrine. Certainly, after my experience, I hope to remain open to new insight from the Holy Spirit in any of these issues. And it amazes me that so many on this forum seem to agree on certain doctrine, while my experience with other non-SDA Christians has shown me that many still disagree on some of these points. I pray for myself and others, that we dont put our trust in any person or forum thought, and their respective understanding of Scriptural messages. (I am speaking of many here, not just you). I never want to blindly follow other's ideas again. It is overwhelming to study all these issues, so I am still focused on the sabbath stuff and covenant issues. 2nd: The statement was made, "The church is changing" is a defensive statement that is bandied about a great deal. It's simply not true. Some SDAs are somewhat embrassed by certain aspects of Adventism so they use this well worn defensive phrase to try and justify being a part of this group. However, when you closely question them, I believe you will find that many still cling to the same old SDA distinctives". Im not sure for all SDA's that this is a defensive statement. Many like myself, have been amazed and encouraged by what we see. We do not intentionally play with words. We are changing, individuals within, to question what we have been taught not to question. Are thinking regarding our traditional beliefs is becomming more open to discussion. We ask in small groups and in one on one situations. We are truly seeking truth. (your statement opened my eyes to some of my own lingering SDA distinctives, it actually made me laugh at myself in a couple areas. Tealeaves and Ric, I have seen this split first hand. Especially re Ellen. The poles are further and further apart. I just found out about a non- publicized "Bible Study" group from my church who join together to study ELLEN. They are not open to "outsiders" who dont share their views. It is invitation only. Very strange.... Some are friends of mine, and I felt hurt at first when I wasnt invited to study with them in their small group, but now I am relieved. Imagine, studying Ellen in secret!!.. They are leaders with power and money, so should be interesting to see what happens. (this church still talks EGW alot, so what is the point of hiding) Am praying for you all, and so very grateful and amazed that "His grace is sufficient for me" | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2005 |
That last paragraph didnt come across very clear. My understanding of this "small group unpublished fellowship" is that this is a group of "Ellenites" who are concerned and anxious to get back to a more basic and pure following of EGW. A very conservative group. But again, IN secret!!! WOW | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 949 Registered: 7-2003  |
Javagirl, In my post I called doctrines like the seer status of EllenWhite, Saturday Sabbath as the Seal of God, SDA vs. Catholic eschatology, and Jewish food laws for Christians ìaberrantî. I stand by that classification. I do so, not because of any ìforum thoughtî, but because of literally hundreds of hours of deep personal Bible study and prayer. It was Scripture that led me to renounce these doctrines as aberrant. I am always open to being shown the error of my ways from scripture alone. However, until someone can show me convincing biblical proof, using proper contextual hermeneutics, that any of these distinctive doctrines are valid, then they must remain in the aberrant column. Hereís the amazing thing, Javagirl. So many on this forum agree on so many things because the Church as a whole agrees on so many issues. One of the things Iíve been struck with since leaving Adventism is the amazing unity on so many Christian doctrines within the Church. Sure, we vigorously debate many non-essentials, but on the essentials we are united (a few liberal theologians on the fringe not withstanding). On the topic of the SDA group changing. It is not. A few small grumblings here and there do not a revolution make. One need only look at the recent GC meeting in St. Louis to know the SDA group is not changing. I did not suggest that SDAs intentionally try to play dishonest word games. I think it is more of an instinctive response. What is being said even seems true from the SDA perspective. I should know, I did it for many years. Chris | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris thanks for your response. I wish this was more of a chat room, its so hard to communicate this way at times, so much room for misunderstanding over one word or phrase... In my experience with many friends from different "religions" I still see division on the state of the dead, the need for baptism by immersion, what form hell takes, thee necessity of an earthly priest or pope, inspiration of the scriptures as a whole, the need for "extra requirements" to demonstrate that one is "truly saved or converted", once saved always saved, predestination, who or what the mark of the beast is, and on an on. Many believe strongly in the need to align with the "right church", and accept their leaders interpretations as gospel. They quote "so and so says this", read xx concordance etc. etc. It is interesting to see that these issues go on elsewhere. Many sunday keepers still stress the need to "keep" the sabbath, at least here in the south. I believe that there is more than "a few small grumblings" here and there. This has definitely changed in the last 8-10 years. Certainly among the masses of SDA's. What was taken for granted re Ellen, no longer is, for many many people. We never had these discussions in the past... The group IS changing, and polarizing. Im not sure how long you have been out of the system, but I see it clearly in the present. Many are alarmed at the GC proclamation, and were hoping for a different outcome. Many are immensly relieved as well. This is true for pastors as well. I have deep connections with many pastors in different areas of the country, and know many of them struggle with these issues, openly, and not so openly. Im not sure about the highest ranking officials within the GC, but i have heard of disagreement there as well, just not first hand like I have with pastors and parishioners. I see a large split coming. Why would they need to "reaffirm" if they werent feeling threatened! I am interested in hearing if others still in the SDA church see the same things that I see. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 950 Registered: 7-2003 |
Javagirl, your post represents ancedotal evidence that the SDA group is NOT truly changing. You cannot advocate "change" on one hand while tenaciously clingining to false doctrine with the other hand. That is not "change". It's a change in the words, not the substance. Make no mistake, Christians do not believe any of the SDA distinctives in the way that SDAs do. Sure, some Christians might believe in Sunday as a holy day, but in no case do they believe it is the Seal of God (a blasphemous doctrine if there ever was one). I could go on with the rest of the doctrines I mentioned, but I'm sure you get my point. The bottom line is this, until Adventist leadership publicly repents of the group's dark foundations and publicly renounce it's aberrant doctrine, the group cannot truly be said to be changing. P.S. I've been out about 3 years, live in a large "progressive" SDA mecca, and interact with progressive SDAs nearly every day (most of whom say the group is changing, but still think the doctrinal foundations have merit - a contradictory assertion to be sure). Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 897 Registered: 10-2004  |
Javagirl, most of the doctrines that Chris called aberrant are not things which Christianity debates about, in general. And certain aspects of some of these SDA doctrines make them very heretical. Ellen White is a dangerous false prophet who teaches a false gospel and a different Jesus. This is certainly an important point, and something to be firm about. The IJ clearly has no foundation in the Bible as admitted by some SDA scholars even, and the rest of Christianity agrees that this doctrine is unBiblical. It is anti-Gospel and denies key attributes of God. The Sabbath and Sunday being a part of salvation/sealing/mark of the beast is also clearly Anti-Gospel. The Sabbath being the seal of God for the Christian blasphemes the Holy Spirit's role. Even when evangelical Christians disagree with each other about the 10 Commandments, Sabbath, and Sunday they do not believe that it has anything to do with salvation! Most Christians have always agreed that the believer goes to be with Jesus at death throughout the history of the Christian Church as the Bible clearly teaches this, and the Bible says that we have eternal life and will never be separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. But the most heretical aspect of the SDA doctrine is that we don't even have a spirit (spirit=breath according to the SDA doctrine). This denies the reality of the new birth--if we don't even have a spirit that can be born again (brought to life eternal by the Holy Spirit)! So, it's truly not just an issue of "the state of the dead." Other SDA issues such as food are also clearly aberrant, and the Bible calls them doctrines of demons! (1 Timothy 4) I really don't see a "final authority" attitude except for the BIBLE being the final authority! As Chris said, one reason we agree on so many points is because most Christians in general agree on these things, because the Word of God is very clear about them. It's not because we are "blindly following" some person's ideas. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 30, 2005) | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 |
Chris I think we are talking about different things here. By group, you seem to be talking about the Adventist leadership. I am speaking of individuals within the SDA system. And the "feeling" of being in the system. For many of us, with a cradle to grave system and exposure, change comes in steps. In any case, what I know about systems (a lot) is that shifts in paradigms generally evolve, and are gradually replaced with new insights, information, and lastly internalized beliefs followed by behavioral change. For me, change is taking place, but in stages. In some cases, some doctrines appear to have merit, but perhaps in degree. I dont feel the need to "renounce abberant doctrine" that I am not "fully convinced in my own mind". I do feel a freedom to search and question and study. And I do know that the change process takes time in most cases. I dont see leadership changing (with a few isolated exceptions) Most who challenge the traditional tenents of SDA are forced to leave, or voluntarily leave. Sad really. I have felt that perhaps I should stay and attempt to influence some, but alas, I am a woman! Also, the system remains toxic to me at this point, seems to drain the life and joy out of me. Last week at church I felt completely empty, bored, and saddened. We actually left early. It was opressive to me. Today, sabbath, I am on my way to starbucks to get coffee, and then get those cute little "adorned" reading glasses that i saw yesterday. I do not feel guilt. Some may say that I am not an adventist for this behavior. Whatever. I am a grateful child of God. And I attend an adventist church most of the time. And I am changing, or rather He is changing me, with an absence of effort on my part that is unexplainable. Thanks for your responses chris. So much to think about as usual. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 898 Registered: 10-2004 |
Melissa, It may be a different topic, but it fits on this forum! I am also sensitive to that particular detail. Ellen G. White wrote that the wise men came to the manger--so growing up, we just figured that the innkeeper must have let them take the manger with them to their house!! LOL! Yes, we believed Ellen was infallible! Now, it's just another contradiction, clearly, to the Biblical account. EGW wrote: "The magi from a heathen land came to the manger with their gifts, to worship the Saviour." (The Desire of Ages, page 621, paragraph 3.) Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 952 Registered: 7-2003 |
Javagirl, I certainly agree that the Holy Spirit is changing individuals within Adventism. I think there is a pronounced move of the Spirit that is happening right now. Those in false systems are being called out of those systems. Jesus Christ is very visibly calling those who are His to Himself and I believe that includes both you and me. Chris | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 719 Registered: 7-2000 |
Javagirl, Hi! I'm not sure Adventism as a denomination can ever really change...except to completely disassociate itself from Ellen White's authority. They would need to completely admit their error and spiritual deception in calling her a true prophet of God. The whole system was started on false premises and doctrinal error! Adventism would truly have to overhaul their whole theological belief system and really be a totally different church. I'd join you for Starbucks anytime! grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 986 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've always been somewhat curious when B says adventism is "changing". Because from our history, he has said repeatedly that it is the closest thing to Biblical out there ... and certainly more so than us "apostate Sundaykeepers". So, if they're so "Biblical", why do they need to change? How can they claim that they're God's remnant church and all of the other things they do about themselves on one hand, then try to persuade "someone" that they're changing? Who are they really trying to convince, and what is the reason they even think they need to change, given how highly they see themselves? I find it all an interesting quandry myself. Are they saying that "sundaykeepers" (an offensive term to one who simply chooses to worship on Sunday) have something right? I find that hard to swallow since they call us apostate. It just seems a bunch of double speak to try to stop the exodus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2349 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree that the Adventist church is not changing. The double-speak Melissa mentions is real. I also agree that growing numbers of people are being awakened by the Holy Spirit to study the Bible, and they're questioning Adventist beliefs. Those questioning, I believe, are on a path that the Holy Spirit will keep them on until they have studied and discovered Biblical truth. I believe that God is clarifying truth and calling people. It seems to me that the world is polarizingópeople are either choosing to be increasingly "tolerant" and adapt to "whatever" as long as they're "comfortable" with what they believe, or they're choosing to embrace Jesus and His revealed word, and that choice polarizes them from the rest of the world. Many people are inside that place of being called and studying to discover Biblical reality. That process can take months or years. Eventually, however, everyone must decide what he will do with Jesus and what he will do about following Him. He calls us to integrity, and when we are surrendered to Him, He shows us what move He wants us to make and when He wants us to make it. Truly, even though I thought many of my SDA beliefs were the same as Christianity in general, the past 10 years have continued to reveal to me that every one of the SDA doctrines is "twisted" in some way from Biblical center. They may sound the same as stated in Christianity, but they do not mean the same things. Soul sleep, for example, is one of those--as Jeremy explained above. Yes, Javagirl, I'd join you for Starbucks anytime, too! Praying for you, Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 439 Registered: 4-2000  |
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LAW IN 70 AD? Next to the Bible in importance, the works of historian Flavius Josephus are the most authoritative ancient source for illuminating the people, places, and events recorded in the Old and New Testaments. Born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus' crucifixion, he was an eye-witness to much of what he reported in the first century A. D. He made two famous references to Jesus in his historical works. When the Roman Emperor Vesperian established an elegant temple of peace in Rome, he included prize memorabilia (booty) of war from many conquered geographical areas. Josephus records of Vesperian, "Here he placed also the golden vessels taken from the temple of the Jews, but the purple hangings of the sanctuary AND THEIR LAW he kept in his own palace." (Josephus: The Essential Writings, page 383--a condensation and new translation by Dr. Paul L. Maier from Michigan State University). Dr. Maier is a scholar from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Since the Ten Commandments (Words) were a part of the 613 laws of the Torah, could this have been the final location or disposition of the Decalogue? I am interested in the thoughts of others on this topic. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 961 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dennis, I believe in this context "the law" would have referred to the parchments that contained the Hebrew scriptures. The ark of the covenant (containing the tablets of stone) is never mentioned again after the time of Solomon. When Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's temple there is a listing of the things he took from the temple to take as booty back to Babylon. The ark of the covenant is conspicuously absent from that list leading some to believe it was hidden (perhaps in one of the thousands of natural caves in the area) prior to the assualt of the city. We do not know, but it does seem the ark disappeard sometime between the time of Solomon and the deportation to Babylon. Chris | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 613 Registered: 1-2003 |
Doesn't the bible say the Ark will go away to be remembered no more? Jeremiah 3: 16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land," declares the LORD, "men will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made. | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2004 |
WOW - praise God I stopped into this thread before I leave on a family trip where I will be with current SDA's. The statement you made, Jeremy, about claiming that the Sabbath is the seal of God amounts to blaspheming the Holy Spirit is exactly the key I've been looking for. You know how some SDA (and even others) say that maybe the unpardonable sin is to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" - here it is in plain view. Denying the power of the Holy Spirit is an old SDA standby anyway, there seems to be a real fear of anything with the name 'spirit' in it unless it's the 'spirit of prophecy'. How typical to replace the Holy Spirit's work with a law!!! What a great example, in a nutshell, of what false religion, legalism does. In my opnion, it is the spirit of rebellion, which is also witchcraft. (replace the power of God with some formula) thanks, Marcell | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 50 Registered: 4-2004 |
oops - hope that post made sense. I am just so excited about the Lord speaking through Jeremy I didn't take time to edit!! It's like all the other arguments about all the other false doctrines of SDA just got narrowed down into that one statement . ." The Sabbath being the seal of God for the Christian blasphemes the Holy Spirit's role. " Like the choice that SDA's need to make is whether to trust the Law or trust the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2365 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're right, Marcell--praise God Jeremy wrote that in a place you could access before you left! Let us know how things go... Colleen |
