| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 331 Registered: 10-2000 |
http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/robertschuller.htm http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/gudel2.htm#A%20PROFILE http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/fosterlinks.htm http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/changes.htm | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 280 Registered: 7-2004  |
That's interesting what that last link says about the Worldwide Church of God. Regardless of the facts of their change, whatever they may be, we read one of the books they put out when we were transitioning out of the SDA church, and it was very helpful to us. I can't put my hands on the book right now, but it was a very short book about how the Sabbath is obsolete in the New Covenant. I was also very impressed at that time with their explanations for their changes on their website. It was certainly a part in helping us sort through things during our transition time. Even if their motives were wrong or if their current direction is wrong, it just goes to show that God can and does use just about anything out there to lead people. In fact, the very first non-SDA church we visited when we were considering leaving (nearly 8 months before we actually left) was a Worldwide Church of God. We didn't see anything disturbing about it. In fact, our main complaint was that they held the service in a Town Hall and even though no one smoked there it had a strong smell of cigarette smoke because of how it is used at other times. However, upon further investigation, we decided it was just as well to look elsewhere because we weren't comfortable with their church organizational structure. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 596 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, The first link at the top on Robert Schuller is very good. Scroll down to the bottom left, and read a most shocking quote where Schuller said that "there is nothing more uncouth....than pointing out to people their lost condition. That statement, plus his book called "Self Esteem-The New Reformation" takes him outside the pale of orthodoxy. Imagine promoting self esteem, when the true Reformation gospel proclaims that we live to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. The Crystal Cathedral is beautiful, but Schuller is promoting a different gospel. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 597 Registered: 3-2005 |
Oh, and the 2nd link gives a more comprehensive look at Schuller's false gospel of self esteem. Stan | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 332 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, Amazing isn't it? Back in 97 I lived near the Cathedral and would watch his telecasting. At that time these types of statements were being stated by Schuller and it boggled my mind. And I wasn't even a Christian at that time! Yet something was very wrong with what he was preaching according to my thinking even then. And since my baptism in 2000, now I know why he was bothering me with his statements. It's really shocking that so many buy into his 'gospel'--which we know is no gospel of Christ Jesus. Yes, Robert Schuller is promoting a 'different gospel,' no doubt about it. Him and many others. It's really sad to see and it's even harder to convince others of this truth. I honestly thought I'd hear some negative statements from this forum about those links--please don't take offense--it's just that I've experienced a total outcasting from so many Christians in my real life here due to telling them of what you are reading on those links. From people in my own building even! There are many people in this building that watch Schuller et al and they will build their entire lifestyle according to what he preaches. I'm so happy that these are useful for you and hopefully for others as well. We need to warn people of this false gospel before time runs out. And the way Javier Solana is conducting so many nations now, it could be sooner than we think. If infact he is the 'lawless' one. Time will tell. Again, I would urge you to read the thread I posted regarding him. On the fulfilled prophecy site where it says "What Herb Thinks" and also there's a link to Constance Cumbey's blogspot where you could take a peak a some of the reports in what she reports and also in the comments section. There are many documents between what Herb posts and Constance's blogspot that the information is astounding. Again, time will tell--but nothing like keeping watch anyhow. God Bless you and your household Stan. Keep the Faith. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2000 |
Raven, Growing up, I knew Herbert and Ted Armstrong personally. My dad was an avid follower of Herbert's teachings but my dad kept encountering problems between the teachings at the Church and what the Bible would say. So the next week, it would be off to the Syogogue but there again, my dad kept running smack into teachings that went against the New Testament. So, the next week we'd hit the SDA Church and there again, the Bible over-ruled their teachings! Boy howdy, talk about confusion with doctrine and our lifestyle! Of course, we did keep the Sabbath and that we kept most strictly. We also kept many of the Jewish Feasts. My dad would be into his Bible every single day, night and day. Even at the dinner table, he had Herbert W. Armstrong on the radio as we ate. I even remember the address: World Wide Church of God--P.O. Box 111--Pasadena, Ca. (I forgot the zip through the years but that address has never left me). Finally, it came to clashes within the family. My dad and his mother (my grandmother who ended up raising me) arguing with each other each and every week over what Feasts we keep and which ones are no longer valid. Over things like pictures being placed in the Bible, over foods, over Jesus Christ's first or second coming. It was wild to say the least. Before my father died in 1967, he discovered the Gospel of Jesus Christ on his deathbed. My mother heard it as did I. Yet I was too young to understand all what it meant. Now through those years of growing up and the clash of the titans (my dad and grandmother), my dad always would describe to me what the Kingdom of God would be like. I remember it as though it was yesterday. And my excitement back then has never changed. I still see what my father described to me and it's written in the Scriptures! I don't know why this is being publicly stated this morning but here it is anyhow. Through all of that confusion growing up and all of my dad's confusion and my grandmother's confusion--somehow our God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth saw fit that we all came to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Tears flow from my heart when my memory does what it's doing now--looking back and seeing God in Action all along. Jesus Christ said in the New Testament: "All things are possible with God." And I can testify to this Truth through many people but the first ones to see this Truth through were my dad, my mother and my grandmother. How could I have guessed that my turn would come? But it did--God is a Miracle Worker--Hallelu-YAH! Blessings to your household! Hang on to what you have. Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 334 Registered: 10-2000 |
"With God, ALL things are possible." | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2000 |
I had to re-look at the Bible that was given to me when I was baptised--(for the first and only time)--I was 42 years of age. It was June 27th, 1999 Not 2000. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 989 Registered: 7-2003  |
Denise, that was a moving testimony. Thanks for sharing. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 598 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, Thanks for sharing your experiences with the Armstrong's. I was very interested in what you had to say about your impression of Schuller. Somehow you sensed that something was just not right about this guy. There is something about Schuller that just strikes me about him being a wolf in sheep's clothing, and forgive me, if I am again being too critical or unloving. But when you put together all the quotes that he has made through the years, openly saying we should NEVER PREACH the WRATH OF GOD, and we should not be so uncouth as to point out a sinner's lost condition, then I am still puzzled by why so many people who I consider great people (even Billy Graham) think that Schuller is just OK. What am I missing? That second link by Joseph Gudel is an article done by the Christian Research Institute and this study of Schuller's theology was supervised by the late Dr Walter Martin. And Martin, as we ex-SDAs know, was very soft on Adventism, but at least we know that this particular article on Schuller was not just a hit piece. Also, I didn't have time to look at your first link above very closely, but is there absolute documentation about the Crystal Cathedral sponsoring that Course on Miracles. If this is true, then Schuller is guilty of aiding and abetting an occultic ministry. But this is nothing new for him, as he has had many New Agers speak at his cathedral. I disagree with you on Constance Cumbey in your previous thread. Cumbey has totally lost her credibility. She attacks many legitimate Christian people as being New Age, and I think we have to be very careful about misrepresenting other Christian's views. Stan | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 505 Registered: 7-2004 |
Denise, I have been moved by the sovereignty of God in your life. I love hearing other's journeys. It reaffirms to me how truly unfailing God is in showering His love on His children. With love from one Denise to another!  | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, See what you think of this website. This is about Norman Vincent Peale where Robert Schuller received his ideas. It also speaks of how occultic this is--i.e. New Ageism. Many Christians do believe this stuff. Christians can be deceived or Jesus Christ would never had had a reason to warn us to "Not be deceived." It is this New Age philosophy that is currently deceiving many good hearted Christians. This is what we need to watch out that it doesn't happen to us. As you can see, many Christians are believing this stuff taught by Schuller, Graham, Warren, and others. See this website among many: http://www.letusreason.org/Poptea2.htm And this site is an eye opener for me anyhow. This article sure speaks volumns. http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/relatedsubjects/purpose.htm Those are a few more that may help someone to not be deceived. Christians can and are being deceived--daily--in our Churches. I'll be back Stan with some more comments or thoughts. Taking a bit of a break here. And Melissa--May God Bless you* Love through Christ Jesus to you both. Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2353 Registered: 12-2003  |
Denise, thank you for sharing your story. What confusion, but what faithfulness on Jesus' part! I love hearing people's testimonies'; thank you again! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 600 Registered: 3-2005 |
Denise, Those are both good links in your very last post. The first one on Norman Vincent Peale speaks volumes about the driving force behind the "Crystal Catastrophy" as some have called it. Peale denied the bodily resurrection of Christ, and admitted to drawing his theology from Ernest Holmes of the Church of Religious Science. Peale clearly had New Age and occultic leanings. So this is the man that Robert Schuller says had the most impact on his ministry! Peale spoke many times at the Cathedral. The second link on Rick Warren illustrates his questionable use of scripture, especially using paraphrases out of context. We had an extensive discussion of this topic on another thread. But, even though Rick Warren was influenced by Schuller, I don't believe they are in the same category. Schuller is heretical, but Warren is not. In fact, Rick Warren in a recent interview publicly disassociated himself from Schuller's theology. I still am puzzled about why Billy Graham endorses Schuller's ministry. Graham also endorses the Vatican as a true church. The president of Fuller seminary, Richard Mouw, has even conceded that the mormons may be worshipping the true Jesus after all. Hmmm, what ever happened to spiritual discernment? Stan | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2000 |
Denise and Colleen, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is Faithful and True. I'm living proof! Oh that I could reach into this deep well and pull out the words that would convey my deepest gratitude to our God Almighty! There's the rub, finding words big or profound enough to express, outloud, this wonderment within. Do you have this same dilemna? It is inexpressable Joy and Hope everlasting! And for that I can Praise God! Who else could understand what I am talking about except for another who is also a Born Again child of the King of Kings?! Yet His Spirit Testifies to my spirit of the Truth that I am a child of God. This is the depth that finds itself lost to verbal expression. That is my experience even moreso now than ever before. Thank God He searches our hearts! If it were left up to me to express to the outside, what is inside, I'd be up a creek without a paddle! Hallelu-YAH and Amen! Here's hoping at least some of that made sense! With love through Christ our Lord Jesus. The other Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, Just a quick post, then I'm off for a while again but will return hopefully this evening to continue our discussion--it's a good one! Here's a link to something that may interest you: http://www.vcyamerica.org/crosstalk/event_popup.cfm?programid=1031 | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2000 |
Stan, Here's part one of that radio show: (this one also addresses Rick Warren's connections to this new age movement) http://www.vcyamerica.org/crosstalk/event_popup.cfm?programid=1030 Denise | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 990 Registered: 7-2003 |
I have a friend who used to be a music minister at Saddleback (Rick Warren's church). Regardless of what others say and how they may frame up conversations or things Rick is reported to have said (and we all know those reports are 100% accurate, right??), Rick Warren believes and teaches the true gospel. There is no touchie feelie when the rubber meets the road in that regard. I have listened to both Schuller and Rick Warren...they are absolutely not in the same camp. I don't recall him ever claiming perfection either, so allow him some grace that maybe he's still just a sinner saved by grace too. I would hate to be in the position where every word I said was recorded or mis-recorded as the case may be to support suppositions people have made about me. As I said, I have personally listened to him teach. beyond the 40-days stuff (which I think we all agree is sloppy in some areas of scripture use), his preaching that I've heard is right on and was not near as careless as some of his other scriptural references in his book. As Stan said, it's been discussed extensively elsewhere. It seems if we really want to evaluate what any one has said, we should at least hear it from the horses mouth. Schuller is easy to identify, and it remains a mystery to me why he is able to attract so many high profile Christian entertainers to his stage. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2357 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting observation in your last sentence, Melissa. For some reason the juxtaposition of "Christian" and "Entertainers" jolted me a bit. I do believe there are Christian entertainers, but the whole concept just makes me pause. Thinking "out loud", Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore Registered user Username: Denisegilmore Post Number: 340 Registered: 10-2000 |
Hi Melissa, Yes, Schuller has many questionable people standing in his pulpit--there's no question there. Here's an article written in 2003 regarding Schuller and of all people Gorbachev. I'm with you with your concerns. It's quite baffling yet the Bible does tell us that the mystery of lawlessness is at work. And we can see that all over anymore. Jesus also warned us of that little bit of leaven which ruins the whole lump. Yet, much of Christianity these days will accept "just a little bit of leaven" calling it 'compromise' or 'giving credit where credit is due' or other similar phrases. Here's an article of what I'm talking about. http://www.newswithviews.com/Ohara/debbie11.htm God Bless you Melissa. And if you're in California, wear a sun-hat. It's already hot outside! Love you through our Lord Jesus Christ. Denise |
