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Denisegilmore
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Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 362
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |     |
As Wesley, in his words, put it.
"Grace is the source, faith the condition, of salvation."
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Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 363
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 4:19 am: | |
http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html
"In his run for the Presidential Nomination of 1988, Christian New Age Change Agent, Pat Robertson gave both Rifkin and his book, The Emerging Order, a great deal of television exposure on Robertson's 700 Club television program. It has been said with great discernment that the life purpose of Rifkin and the sole intent of The Emerging Order was to channel the entire United States spectrum of the "Evangelical" population into the New Age Movement."
"Another case of New Right leaders using their influence to support Latin American dictators was the promotion by Pat Robertson [CNP Pres. 1985-6] and Jerry Falwell of General Efrain Rios Montt, who became president of Guatemala after a bloody coup in 1982. Rios Montt, a convert of Gospel Outreach Verbo Ministries [which originated in the Jesus Movement, a CIA operation] expected to turn the Verbo Churches into a new political movement which would "moralize national life from the top down."
part 2:
http://watch.pair.com/cnp2.html
"A critical piece of information unearthing the dark origins of the Council for National Policy is the fact that Nelson Bunker Hunt (financier and executive officer of SIL's ILC, the Religious Roundtable, Campus Crusade and JBS, and main funder/second president of the CNP) and Jesse Helms (whose top political operative, Tom Ellis, was director of the racial eugenics Pioneer Fund and second CNP president) were members of a racial eugenics society ....."
"Scholars examining the relationship between right-wing politics and racial research have drawn on a 1979 work by social psychologist Michael Billig, Psychology, Racism, and Fascism, which argues that the origins of racist and neo-Nazi movements of the 1950s to 1970s are to be found in British social science."
" It was not by coincidence that the cloning of Dolly the sheep occurred at the Roslyn Institute in Roslyn, Scotland located 7 miles south of Edinburgh. Situated directly between Roslyn Institute and Edinburgh is Roslyn Chapel, the famous shrine of the Knights Templar that is geometrically designed as a copy of the ruins of Herod's Temple. Near Roslyn Chapel is the home of the St Clair or Sinclair family 62., which have historically been revered as prominent Freemasons of Britain and a sacred family of the Merovingian bloodline. The esoteric interpretation of Dolly compares the white sheep to Christ, whose divine and immortal state the racial eugenicists hope to duplicate through biotechnology. According to news reports, the cloning of the first human embryo occurred in 1999 on June 24, which is the Masonic feast of St. John the Baptist, patron saint of Freemasonry. 63."
" Those in whose purview is the control of information about the Religious Right must stop all investigation at the point where Rockefeller or the Nazis or the CIA are identified as the culprits. At all costs, the point of origin must not be identified as Great Britain. However, the proper place to conclude our inquiry is to identify the British societies which have reproduced their counterparts in the U.S. Among these they have also planted organizations for the purpose of indoctrinating the Christians to look somewhere out there for the conspiracy, while they are being ushered into the New World Order via the back door by their leaders."
"Lord Edward Bulwer-Lytton in [1803-73] who was also educated at Trinity College Cambridge brought to England the practice of alchemy, the most secret occult science to which study and practice the Order of the Rose Croix was dedicated. As planned all along, the "science" of alchemy is now evolving from the transmutation of base metals into gold to the transmutation of human genomes cannibalized from aborted babies into new species:
"Many of biotechnology's specific products and areas of research are aimed at creating new forms in reality---new species--- by asexual means, that reflect esoteric doctrine, such as Rosicrucian alchemical precepts as androgyny and man's transcendence of all moral absolutes and even physical fixity; perfectibility as preached by the Cathari; and Valentinian gnosticism's teaching regarding man's return into the 'one' via gnosis and enlightenment. All of these are part of the same centuries' old gnostic streams. The esoteric goal of the 'new world order' is a contra-Genesis anti-civilization whose emblem is a gnostic garden of Eden in which man is perfect and incorruptible. Some of the newest technologies, such as organ farming using totipotent stem cells of human embryos are aimed at immortality, at least for the few." 78.
"Myers had developed and written in the S.P.R. Proceedings a detailed theory of the subliminal self, upon which he based his worldview and which emerges in Gauld's summary of the five points presented in these papers:
"(1) The 'preamble of all religions,' the primary belief from which they all begin, is that our . . . material world is interpenetrated and to an extent acted upon, by another order of things, an unseen spiritual world. . . it is only if the existence and nature of such a world can be established scientifically that we may expect any rapprochement between the warring sects; (2) 'The founders of religions have attempted to begin at once with the highest generalizations. Starting from the existence of GodÖIt is possible that in all this mankind may have begun at the wrong endÖ'(3) Öwe possess or are evolving capacities which transcend merely terrene laws; (4) We can therefore obtain information about the metetherial plane by 'communicating' with the discarnate in the orthodox waysÖtheir state is one of endless evolution in wisdom and love; (5)Öthe metetherial realm (is) a World Soul from contact with which we can in a suitable frame of mind draw in a revitalising strength and GraceÖAnd linked to allÖis a Universal SpiritÖ(whose) benefits may come directly through the World SoulÖor are so to speak channelled through spirits nearer to, but still above, us."85.
"The Founders of Psychical Research closes with the observation that psychical research emerged from the occult underground to a position of respectability within the establishment largely due to the intellectual stature of the Society for Psychical Research.
"The concluding volume of the popular Harnsworth History of the World (1909) presents the work of the S.P.R. as the culminating point in the story of Mankind. Twenty or thirty years previously psychical research had met with much derision and hostility; but now the climate of opinion seemed to be changing for the better." 88.
""Öthe first FabiansÖhad almost all been lapsed Anglicans from Evangelical homes. There was a Christian fringe to the London socialism of the eighties, but this too was Anglican. The Christian Socialists came together in Stewart Headlam's Guild of St. Matthew and the Land Reform Union; and the more respectable Christian Social Union, formed in 1889 -- seeking in Fabian style to permeate the Anglican Church -- soon attracted more than two thousand clerical members. Dissenting clergymen too began to find a place in the Fabian Society and the London Progressives, while Unitarian churches and centres like Stanton Coit's Ethical Church provided a meeting place for believers and idealist agnostics . . . Socialism was for all of them, the new Evangelism." 93.
"The Thomas Nelson Publishers website provides a brief reference concerning Buchan's contribution to the company, naturally omitting mention of Buchan's membership in Cecil Rhodes' Round Table:
"In the early years of the twentieth century. . .The business was being managed primarily by George M. Brown (Thomas Nelson's son-in-law) and John Buchan, a noted novelist (of such popular works as Prester John and The Thirty-Nine Steps), biographer, and political correspondent. John Buchan, a close friend of Tommy Nelson became instrumental in expanding the company's offerings of classic works and educational resources.
"Buchan wrote, 'On the eve of the [first world] war we must have been one of the largest businesses of the kind in the world, issuing cheap editions of every kind of literature not only in English, but in French, German, Magyar, and Spanish.'" 109.
Thomas Nelson is today the largest and one of the oldest Bible publishers in the world and also a leading publisher of religious books. Thomas Nelson also takes credit for the debut of the New Testament of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) in 1946.
In 1969, Sam Moore, who was president of the Council for National Policy from 1984-85, bought Thomas Nelson Publishers and became its CEO and President. His brother, Charles Moore, became vice president of Thomas Nelson and was also a member of the CNP.
In 1976, Nelson Publisher initiated the New King James Version. Two meetings of the North American Overview Committee met at Nashville and Chicago in 1975 to assist in preparing guidelines for the NKJV. Members of that committee and a Nashville Convocation of 1984 included the following high profile members of the Religious Roundtable and Council for National Policy: Tim LaHaye, D. James Kennedy, Jerry Falwell, Ben Haden, Mary C. Crowley, W.A. Criswell, E.V. Hill, Henry Morris, Bill Bright and Charles Stanley." 110.
" Unholy Hands on God's Word is the transcript of a 1996 radio interview of Judy Pinalto, who describes the composition of the New King James Translation and Review committees which included several members of the CNP and other Reconstructionist organizations. In this presentation, Judy demonstrates the dominionist slant of the NKJV:
"The big problem with these counterfeit Bibles is not only the expunging of verses but the altering of verses. If you take a look at the backbone of this political movement, this Reconstructionist social gospel, they use from the modern NIV and the New American Standard, out of Matthew 28, they have altered the great commission. This is where, I think, one of the great delusion, the great deception, has come in. In the modern versions, the corrupt versions, it says that the great commission is to, 'Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations.' This is the verse that they use to justify taking turf.
"In the King James Bible, the correct translation of that verse is, "Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations." In other words, the great commission was to preach the gospel; it wasn't to take numbers, it wasn't to take disciples, it wasn't to take the nations, take turf. That is how they have used the modern versions to corrupt the doctrine and to create this heretical position that is going on today.
So, on these Bible Committees are men who have other agendas." 111.
"Corrupted versions of the Bible were also used by the Rockefeller-funded Summer Institute of Linguistics to facilitate the takeover of Latin America. Instead of translating the Bible literally, SIL preferred a method of translation called dynamic equivalency which permitted the translator to alter the language of Scripture, ostensibly to adapt Scripture to the culture."
"The indigenous peoples of Latin America did not subvert their own governments, but rather the American robber barons overthrew legitimate governments and then used Wycliffe Bible Translators to bring native populations into subjection. Through the misapplication of Scripture, Cam Townsend taught the Latin American tribes to passively accept the overthrow of their governments and to submit to the puppet dictators installed by the multinational corporations:
"Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) was hired by military dictatorships and civilian governments, often headed by Nelson's allies, to pacify the tribes and integrate them into national economies increasingly brought into the North American market. SIL used the Bible to teach indigenous people to 'obey the government, for all authority comes from God.'" 115.
"Fascism has historically used false shepherds to gain access to the Lord's flock and to clothe their infernal schemes with the respectable covering of Christianity. Prior to Hitler's election as Chancellor of Germany, many Protestant ministers were impressed with his conservative rhetoric and encouraged German Christians to support National Socialism. In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer included a chapter which described the exploitation of the Church through Hitler's masterful manipulation of Christian ministers. An account of one influential minister is typical of others who failed to recognize early on that Hitler used Christian terminology only to enlist the Protestant leadership in his service.
"The Reverend Martin Niemoller had personally welcomed the coming to power of the Nazis in 1933. In that year his autobiography, From U-Boat to Pulpit, had been published. The story of how this submarine commander in the First World War had become a prominent Protestant pastor was singled out for special praise in the Nazi press and became a best seller. To Pastor Niemoller, as to many a Protestant clergyman, the fourteen years of the Republic had been, as he said, 'years of darkness' and at the close of his autobiography he added a note of satisfaction that Nazi revolution had finally triumphed and that it had brought about the 'national revival' for which he himself had fought so long -- for a time in the free corps, from which so many Nazi leaders had come. He was soon to experience a terrible disillusionment...
"By the beginning of 1934, the disillusioned Pastor Niemoller had become the guiding spirit of the minority resistance in both the 'Confessional Church' and the Pastors' Emergency League...On the first of July, 1937, Dr. Niemoller was arrested and confined to Moabit prison in Berlin. On June 27 he had preached to the congregation, which always overflowed his church at Dahlem, what was to be his last sermon in the Third Reich. As if he had a foreboding of what was to come he said, 'We have no more thought of using our own powers to escape the arm of the authorities than had the Apostles of old. No more are we ready to keep silent at man's behest when God commands us to speak. For it is, and must remain, the case that we must obey God rather than man.'
"After eight months in prison he was tried on March 2, 1938, before a Sondergericht, one of the 'Special Courts' set up by the Nazis to try offenders against the State, and though acquitted of the main charge of 'underhand attacks against the State' was fined two thousand marks and sentenced to seven months' imprisonment for 'abuse of the pulpit' and holding collections in his church. Since he had served more than this time, the court ordered his release, but he was seized by the Gestapo as he was leaving the courtroom, placed in 'protective custody' and confined in concentration camps, first at Sacchsenhausen and then at Dauchau, where he remained for seven years until liberated by Allied troops." 116.
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jer. 13:23
Cecil Rhodes derived his concept of the "round table" from the legend of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, which is based on the gnostic myth of the Holy Grail. [See: The Rosicrucian Connection] In particular, Rhodes was inspired by Alfred Lord Tennyson's poem "Morte d'Arthur" which is a narrative of King Arthur's death:
I perish by this people which I made, -
Tho' Merlin sware that I should come again
To rule once more - but let what will be, be,
I am so deeply smitten thro' the helm
That without help I cannot last till morn. . .
Then loudly cried the bold Sir Bedivere,
"Ah! my Lord Arthur, whither shall I go?
Where shall I hide my forehead and my eyes?
For now I see the true old times are dead,
When every morning brought a noble chance,
And every chance brought out a noble knight.
Such times have been not since the light that led
The holy Elders with the gift of myrrh.
But now the whole Round Table is dissolved
Which was an image of the mighty world. . ."
And slowly answer'd Arthur from the barge:
"The old order changeth, yielding place to new,
And God fulfils Himself in many ways. . .
But now farewell. I am going a long way . . .
Where I will heal me of my grievous wound."
Alfred Lord Tennyson [1809-92] was a contemporary of Cecil Rhodes and a member of the Society for Psychical Research, the "Spiritualist church for intellectuals" founded by the Cecil Bloc.
Tennyson's reference to the healing of Arthur's mortal wound is a symbolic prophecy of a future revival of the gnostic Grail cult which was subdued by the Roman Church. It is not unreasonable to assume that demonic entities from the spirit realm with whom Tennyson communicated inspired his writings which in turn influenced Cecil Rhodes socio-political aspirations.
King Arthur's dying words explain why the Scottish Stewart Crest displays a Phoenix with the motto "Courage gains strength from a wound." The Stewart Clan is believed to be a "sacred family" of the Merovingian bloodline, who were the kings of France from 448 A.D. until they were replaced in 800 A.D. by Charlemagne, whom the Roman Church appointed as Holy Roman Emperor.
The Merovingians present imposture as rightful rulers of Europe through the Davidic lineage of Jesus Christ will position them to rule the world from the throne of Jerusalem.
The legendary Round Table of King Arthur, which was guided by the prophet and magician, Merlin, until its tragic dissolution through dissension and scandal, will be recreated in the New Age by the Merovingian dynasty. The Merovingians derive their name from the 5th century King Merovee of France, a descendant of the mystical Fisher-Kings, who was reportedly sired by a beast from the sea:
". . . the mysterious sea beast -- the Bistea Neptunis -- as symbolically defined in the Merovingian ancestry. The relevant sea-lord was King Pallas, a god of old Arcadia. . .The immortal sea-lord was said to be 'ever-incarnate in a dynasty of ancient kings' whose symbol was a fish -- as was the traditional symbol of Jesus." 117.
Is the "Bistea Neptunis" the mysterious "beast of the sea" with seven heads having the name of blasphemy of Revelation 13:1-2? This beast, a composite of the leopard, the bear and the lion, will experience the healing of one of its heads which had suffered a deadly wound.
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat and great authority."
3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed; and all the world wondered after the beast." Rev.13:1-3
The "name of blasphemy" in verse 3 refers to the varieties of "Sacred Names" the British-Israel/Messianic Movement prefers to the name of the LORD. The latter is misrepresented as the pagan name for Baal and the name of Jesus [Gr. "Iesous"] as "Zeus". The ultimate objective is to replace the true names of God with the Tetragrammaton ["YHWH"] and "G-d", which are considered too sacred to pronounce, and "Yahweh" which has no basis in Hebrew Scripture.
Messianic believers generally fail to realize that paying homage to the Tetragrammaton as the "ineffable name" is a denial that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-christ, whereof ye have heard that is should come; and even now already is it in the world." I John 4:3
Revelation 13:17 is a reference to this name of blasphemy forcibly branded on those who give their allegiance to the beast:
"And that no man might buy or sell, save that he had the mark, of the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
In Locksley Hall, Tennyson anticipated the "Federation of the World" as the kingdom of God on earth and closed the revelation of his vision with a reference to the governance of mankind under "universal law" i.e., The Noahide Laws:
For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
Saw the Vision of the World, and all the wonder that would be;
Saw the heavens fill with commerce, argosies of magic sails,
Pilots of the purple twilight, dropping down with costly bales;
Heard the heavens fill with shouting, and there rain'd a ghastly dew
From the nations' airy navies grappling in the central blue;
Far along the world-wide whisper of the south-wind rushing warm,
With the standards of the peoples plunging thro' the thunder-storm;
Till the war-drum throbb'd no longer, and the battle flags were furl'd
In the Parliament of Man, the Federation of the World.
There the common sense of most shall hold a fretful realm in awe,
And the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law.
King Arthur was himself an archetypal guardian of the Grail which is said to be in Glastonbury, confirming the mindset of New Agers that England will be the center for world transformation:
"Following the death of Jesus, Mary went to England with Joseph of Arimethea. This established the vortex for Camelot, destined to come forth later in the fifth and sixth centuries. The Grail was placed in Glastonbury for safekeeping at that time. It will be through the Grail in England that the energies of transformation and ascension will be channeled, which eventually will bring the Earth into the Seventh Golden Age." 118.
Ed McAteer's Religious Roundtable, which was extended to include secular globalist organizations in the 500+ member Council for National Policy, is a modern version of the Round Tables of King Arthur and Cecil Rhodes. To camouflage the real origins of the "round table" in Arthurian lore, the latest amalgamation of pseudo-Christian organizations by that name wrests the Word of God to conceal its pagan origin:
"The Great Commission Global Roundtable resulted after joint meetings of the World Evangelical Fellowship (WEF), the Lausanne Movement for World Evangelization (LCWE), and the AD2000 and Beyond Movement (AD2000) in August in Dallas and earlier in Norway. . . picked the name, Great Commission Global Roundtable, to emphasize obedience to Christ's mandate to evangelize all peoples while listening to God and one another 'around the table' of the Lord. . ." 119
"The Scriptural appeal to gather around the "table of the Lord" hardly applies to this ECUMENICAL venture which is sure to advance the extension of the British kingdom rather than the kingdom of God. A New Age book, Messiah and the Second Coming, also uses this lame interpretation of Scripture to promote the future global Round Table:
"King Arthur founded the Round Table, which legend dramatically declared was symbolically the same table present at the Last Supper. . .The future world Round Table is being created now in the etheric realms. The symbolic golden round table of King Arthur will eventually manifest on earth where varieties of leaders, political, scientific, spiritual, from all nations of the world, will dedicate their lives to international objectives for the benefit of all, above nationalism, above religionism, above personality, for the benefit of all peoples. The spiritual unity of nations a true sister/brotherhood of humanity encompassing universal principles of unconditional love and sharing, is coming to bloom." 120.
"In the final analysis, the Council for National Policy, as an extension of the Religious Roundtable, is a joint venture of pseudo-Christian ministries, cults, secret societies, subversive organizations and corporate enterprise working together to exploit Christians to advance their anti-Christian agenda -- Anglo-American imperialism and ultimately one world government under a one world religion -- their own."
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat and great authority."-- Rev.13:1,2
"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse from one another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it"-- Dan.7:3-6"
"WATCH THAT NO MAN DECIEVE YOU." Jesus Christ-- Matthew 24:4"
"FOR THEN THERE WILL BE GREAT DISTRESS, UNEQUALED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOW--AND NEVER TO BE EQUALED AGAIN." Jesus Christ--Matthew 24:21
"SEE, I HAVE TOLD YOU AHEAD OF TIME." Jesus Christ--Matthew 24:25 |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 364
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:12 am: | |
This is from the above article.
"To put Christians in possession of solid facts concerning the connections of high-ranking CNP members with every manner of occult, subversive and criminal element of society, we have compiled an extensive albeit incomplete database of prominent past and present CNP officers. For diehard researchers who wish to further investigate the backgrounds of the Christian Right leadership, we recommend the GroupWatch files at the Public Information Research Database.
Database of Past/Present CNP Officers & Prominent Members"
----------------------------------------
http://watch.pair.com/cnpdbase.html
http://www.pir.org/
|
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 365
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 5:28 am: | |
I just cut and pasted parts of their article. Also I added the last three verses from Jesus Christ. I forgot to put a line between their article and the 3 Scriptures I added. Click on their links and you'll see how many hyperlinks they have to both part 1 and 2. It sure is thorough for a great start on research.
Denise |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 714
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:54 am: | |
Denise,
If we are to believe the stuff on those links posted above, and judging from your post, then are you telling us that only the old KJV is a correct translation? Are you telling us that D. James Kennedy, John Ankerberg, James Dobson, Chuck Missler and so many other great men are on some racist right wing conspiracy? I agree that Pat Robertson is not to be trusted especially in light of some recent pronouncements that he has had to retract, but to broadbrush everyone who uses the NKJV or NIV or any version except the old KJV as being heretical is patently ridiculous, and lacks any credibility. Spending time attacking other Christians in this way is unproductive and unchristian.
Stan |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 366
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:36 am: | |
Stan,
What I did not do is write the above article. It is a referrence to some background and I held no position of any Bible translation but am glad you asked. Currently, in my home, I have many translations of the Bible. Mostly I use the NIV. Incase you didn't catch that with the three verses I typed out of the Bible; namely the NIV. You should have caught at least that. There were no "Thus and Sayeths" in the verses, that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, said.
However, I also dig into the original greek, hebrew and aramaic meanings of words WHEN there is a descrepency in the verses between the translations.
If it is of any comfort to you, I have found many mistakes in the KJV. The article above is not about translations as it's sole purpose and to point to that and that alone as the entire purpose of the article is not only narrow visioned but incorrect.
As to your question regarding any of the above named men you have named, I say, check them out. You have been given the tools and the resources in the links that are also provided. So if it happens that you find one of your favorite Pastors involved with any organization that goes directly against God Almighty--then that is not me being "unChristian" but it could very well be yourself who wishes not to believe what you read.
Pointing your finger at me is unChristian for all I have done is give a background article that has also given anybody who wishes the tools to check (be Bereans like we are supposed to) each of the things in that article, including today's leaders in the Christian world.
Pointing at me or the KJV are strawmen given the many topics addressed in that article above. Not only is that incorrect, narrow viewed but it is the epitomy of unchristian behavior and you should have known better given your intelligence.
I am not the bad guy here Stan. What is in that article can be backed up and they give the sources. Why take that out on me as though I've taken a position. I'll tell you, since you didn't ask, what position I take. Being presumptuous or assuming on your part is painting me with that "broad brush" you claim I'm doing. Tell me you didn't do that.
To broaden your view of the above article how about I mention how many Christians (not all--don't go there) have undiscernedly accepted any teaching they hear. Many of these teachings as even you are reading, are mixing God's Holy Word with the "secular view" of "let's all get along" and that's a major part of the above article. This mixing.
Anyone denying this mixing is lying to themselves or being deceived.
What about the New Ageism they speak about in that article--or did that skip you. What about this One World Government they also speak about--you couldn't have missed that, neither can you deny that unless you take a stand against God's Word.
What about the interesting poems that pointed out where we are today and where we are heading at a very fast speed I might add? Did all these topics somehow elude you? They are in that article too Stan. What about them?
Now, rather than point your finger at me because I've taken and actually quoted JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH (how can you dog me for that???) why don't you try ASKING ME where I stand? There's a genuinely CHRISTIAN way of doing things that beats the tar out of how you responded. It's called "dialogue."
It appears to me that you wrote out your post with a defensible spirit rather than one who wishes to dialogue.
Allow me to show you who is painting who--here are part of your words in your post above:
" and judging from your post,..."
And what post are you referring to Stan? Because most assuredly there are some posts that you DIDN'T address nor remark upon before this one. If you are talking about my post regarding this particularly one article---I POSTED 3 SCRIPTURES QUOTED OUT OF THE NIV OF JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH.
Is that the post that you are referring to that has you believing I'm being "unChristian????"
Or is it this post? Allow me quote the entirety of the other post after that article:
MY POST IN IT'S ENTIRETY:
""""I just cut and pasted parts of their article. Also I added the last three verses from Jesus Christ. I forgot to put a line between their article and the 3 Scriptures I added. Click on their links and you'll see how many hyperlinks they have to both part 1 and 2. It sure is thorough for a great start on research.""""
THAT post??
There is not a single statement made by me with regard to my position on any topic in my post Stan.
So, what, may I be so bold to ask, is it, that you are "JUDGING?" <~~~~~~ Your word NOT mine.
If you want to "JUDGE" my post. (If this, at all, makes you feel like you have made some point)--Then all you have to go on with BOTH POSTS is the first one quotes JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH---and the second one states that this is a good resource to start with for RESEARCHING.
Is THAT how my "credibility" got screwed up?????
I will hand it to you when you said this Stan:
" Spending time attacking other Christians in this way is unproductive and unchristian.""
I couldn't agree with you more and am waiting for an apology.
Oh and by the way, Why is it you can say things like:
" I am surprised in a way that they didn't use the term Emergent church, as that is a very disturbing movement led by Brian McClaren.""
or like:
"" I agree, there are many disturbing movements going on at present"""
or like:
"""That is why some of us are disappointed in Rick Warren, who knows the truth, and can be very good at preaching the true gospel, yet at times tries to be popular by watering down the gospel."""
or like:
""" Billy Graham used to stand strong against Catholicism in his early days, but now embraces Catholics as just another Christian church, and goes out of his way on programs like Larry King to applaud the Vatican. A lot of martyrs spilled their blood in vain if the Vatican is a true church. And, related to the posts above and why evangelicals regard Adventism as just another Christian church, it is precisely the muddled thinking of most evangelicals who can't even articulate the very foundation of the Protestant Reformation"""
But I quote 3 (count them THREE) Scriptures quoting JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH and I also have the "audacity" to voice my opinion and come right out and be so bold as to actually state that the article is:
""""is a good resource to start with for RESEARCHING."" That somewhere in there you have found a stand wherewith to Criticize me??
I'll be waiting for an apology. And if you are interested in where I stand---ASK ME. Do not 'assume' anything because you DO NOT KNOW ME.
Now if this post seems a tad bit angry then at least you got that part correct. How dare you, after all the posts I've written to you publicly, that are kind and wanting dialogue, you come along and be your sisters "accuser?" and Not only that, you PRESUME to know where I stand when you never even asked me.
How pompous can you get?
Or should I say "obtuse?" It was both.
(And for anyone else who decides to jump into this fray, I would ask that you stay out of this as this is between my brother Stan and myself and besides, I haven't heard much in the way of opinions on that article, infact NONE except for from Stan--So stay out of this and let's not do the "ganging up on someone" Just for the sake of "ganging up." That too is "childish" and you won't get a response from me.)
Now Stan, I'll be waiting. Because what you did--using your words---is "patently ridiculous, and lacks any credibility."
Denise
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 721
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:29 am: | |
Denise,
I was not attacking you personally as being unchristian, and my apologies if that is how you interpetreted what I said. We do need to be discerning. But there is a difference between expressing concerns about the seeker movement and the direction of Billy Graham's ministry with regard to embracing Catholicism, as these statements have some basis in fact. I will also plead guilty to sometimes being overcritical of other Christians, and sometimes that has come across in some of my posts.
What I objected to in post 363 of yours was a direct statement made that the NKJV was a corrupt version, as that was directly stated in that article you posted. Then in post 364, you posted a link to a list of people who were connected 'with every manner of occult, subversive, and criminal element of society' and D.James Kennedy, James Dobson, John Ankerberg, and Chuck Missler were all on that CNP list that is supposed to be associated with these elements. It seems to be serious to be charging a man like Dr. Kennedy with being associated with criminal and occultic and subversive elements. If I have misinterpreted the intent of your linking that list with those elements, then please let me know. I am sorry if this sounds pompous, but I don't mean it that way. If you have evidence linking Dr Kennedy to these activities then let me know.
Stan |
Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 367
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:13 am: | |
Stan,
Thank you for not applying the 'unChristian' part to me. That really did hurt my feelings. And of course I forgive you, we are suppose to forgive one another 7x70 times a day if asked. That's what Jesus told Peter.
As to the NKJV, yes, that's in the article but that doesn't mean I agree with everything in that article. I don't. If you would have just asked me then neither one of us would have gotten offended. That article addresses so many things that if I were to take each and every single topic and post my take on it, it would take up pages and pages of reading the why's of why I don't or do agree with something.
As I've stated above, I use many translations. Usually one with the best translations according to the original language. But I also admit that I don't always do a thorough check on every single verse I read. So, to rest your mind and others who may be reading this; I'm not a KJV only fan. There are those who are but I happen to disagree with that sort of narrowmindedness.
Now when you mention certain men as you have done, then let's take them one by one and we can both come to some conclusion about them. Because I may find something and you may find something completely opposite. That's where we could either stop the research and just agree to disagree or we both might be interested, in our own time, to further research these men.
And the link that I attached is the link that came with the article. It's just that I stopped and clicked on their hyperlinks to get the actuall address for everybody so they wouldn't have to. But it's a link that their hyperlink leads to, not one chosen by me nor found by me. Hope that helps you understand.
And no, you don't sound pompous, not to worry. At least this post of yours is dialogue and let's me know why you took offense in a more detailed way. This helps me understand and also helps me know what I need to do to answer questions about certain men of God, like Dr. Kennedy for example. I will research him first and see what comes up. So he's the first out of the names above that you've mentioned that will be researched by me.
Whew boy, we sure butt heads alot! But at least we are honest with one another and that's why I enjoy dialoguing with you so much. You are honest and say what you think. This is respectable, forthright and gives me many things to think about sometimes. For that I'm grateful to you. You make me stop and think and also research. That's a genuine brother in Christ and for that I'm blessed.
And you are very right about Billy Graham, and also the lack of discernment among many Christians regarding him. Now he's an example of what we need to watch for.
Hopefully this post eases your mind as you've eased mine. We've got to stop this 'butting of heads someday'--ha ha.
Now since you brought up some truth about Billy Graham, I'd really like to get your feelback about this article that I had posted earlier back because it too, deals with good men of God, going in the wrong direction. And this mixing of 'faiths.' It's this article here:
"""Lutheran leader calls for an ecumenical council to address growing biblical fundamentalism
Contributed by Religion News Service
Thursday, 11 August 2005
(RNS) -- The leader of the nation's largest Lutheran denomination has called for a global Christian council to address an "identity crisis" on how churches interpret and understand the Bible.
Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America -- one of the UCC's partner denomations -- called for Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches to come together to combat a "fundamentalist-millenialist-apocalypticist reading of Scripture."
Hanson made his pitch for the ecumenical council on Aug. 9 during the ELCA's Churchwide Assembly in Orlando, Fla. Hanson is also president of the Geneva-based Lutheran World Federation.
"Christianity is in the midst of a global identity crisis because we have not addressed ecumenically the questions of authority and interpretation of scripture," Hanson said.
Hanson said he was echoing the call of the Rev. Duane Larson, president of Wartburg Theological Seminary, an ELCA institution in Dubuque, Iowa.
Although Hanson did not elaborate, mainline churches traditionally are uneasy with literal readings of Scripture, particularly in fundamentalist churches, regarding the end of the world and political unrest in the Middle East. In addition, mainline churches have been divided over what the Bible says about hot-button issues such as homosexuality and women's ordination.
Hanson also urged the Vatican to work with the Lutheran World Federation to develop a joint statement on the Eucharist to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017. The two sides issued a landmark statement on salvation in 1999.
In a State of the Church address to Lutheran delegates, Hanson urged greater cooperation with other churches, but also noted that one stumbling block -- particularly with Catholics and Orthodox churches -- was non-negotiable.
"In all of our ecumenical relations, let us be clear that the ordination of women now in its 35th year is a gift we bring to ecumenical relationships that we pray others will receive," he said to applause.""
-- Kevin Eckstrom, Religion News Service
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Now, my take on that article is not good Stan. Can you believe how many besides Billy Graham are getting together with Catholisism? Not only that but they are now 'doubting the literal reading of the Word of God?' And not wanting anyone to preach on the end of age teachings that are in our Bible because it frightens people?
To me, this all spells bad news for Christianity. At least for those who are not discerning enough to know that this is wrong, absolutely unbelievably wrong.
What do you think about that new movement? If that thing spreads, and I believe it will, what happens to Christianity? And how do we warn people? It's all sad and disheartening to me. It also angers me that these "men of God" can even begin to doubt the Word of God.
Anyway, I don't want to take up all your night, I know you're a busy man with alot of responsibilities but it sure would be nice to get your input on that article.
And I still love you in Christ Jesus. And hopefully you too will forgive me for being so angry with you last night because I am sorry.
In Christ Jesus of Nazareth, who tells us to "Watch and Pray" in these last days especially so we will not be decieved.
your sister in Christ, even if I do raise your hackles sometimes <grin>.
Denise
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Denisegilmore
Registered user
Username: Denisegilmore
Post Number: 368
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:41 am: | |
Stan,
I wanted to share this good news with you. Tonight I actually went to Church! Did to!!
The bus came right to my door so all I had to do was ride my wheelchair to the bus lift and it took me to another city. This little Church is a great Church and there were about 30 of us there. The Pastor talked about these last days, the new movement out there that's getting all faiths together, our being humble as servants of the Lord and on and on. Great things! He preached out of Philippians, 1st and 2nd Peter and Timothy. The people there were "real" people, the music was real worship music not rock and roll and I met a man, infact he's the one who invited me, who is also disabled and is in a wheelchair. What a nice man! He's been going to that Church for years and I'll be going back next Tuesday night and also on Sundays to one like it in my city.
I haven't been Church in a long long time and was a bit worried that it would be another let down but God has answered my prayers! Hallelu-YAH and Amen! This really should be in the "answered prayer thread" so I just may post it there and hopefully everyone can find a Church like this one the Lord's found for me. What an awesome answer after so long a time!
No doubt about it, God is so good to me. He's forever blessing me and even through my heaviest of battles, He's right there, standing by me and also blessing me. Oh Stan, I am so thrilled!
Praise the Lord with me!
Your sister in Jesus Christ.
denise |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 730
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:33 am: | |
Denise,
Praise God you were able to find what sounds like a good church. I am very happy for you.
I did review the above article about the liberal wing ELCA of Lutheranism advocating unity with Catholicism. Wow! Luther is turning in his grave. Well here is a link to an article by Dr. Michael Horton about what should be the Biblical response to the doctrine of unity in Christendom today. This would be the response of conservative Lutherans, Reformed, and conservative evangelicals. I think this is very good, and would be interested in responses from anyone who would care to comment. www.modernreformation.org/mh05unity.htm
Along these same lines, did anyone catch the radio teaching today of Alistair Begg? His program Truth for Life is heard on many stations across the country. He gave a sterling message on what preaching in churches on Sunday AM should be like. He did not mention specifically any seeker sensitive ministries, but you could tell that is what he was talking about. He says we should be doing expository Bible teaching, and doing it in the same way as the apostles. There is no place for watering down the message to make it more seeker-sensitive. He gave numerous examples of how Peter and Paul preached in Acts. He stated that there would be revival like the church has never seen if the Word of God was proclaimed after the Biblical model, rather than some of the modern techniques used by some mega-churches today. Just a great sermon by a good Bible teacher that really inspired me this AM on the way to work.
Stan |
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