| Author | Message | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 151 Registered: 2-2005 |
Is anyone aware of what's going on up at the Lake Region Conference in Chicago? Check out these stories, with the first running July 19 and the second running July 25, both in the South Bend Tribune. http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2005/07/19/local.20050719-sbt-MICH-B1-Seventh_day_Adventis.sto http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2005/07/25/local.20050725-sbt-FULL-A1-Federal_probe_rocks.sto Could the church really be in danger of losing it's tax-exempt status? If so, the potential ramifications are devastating. Heretic | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 344 Registered: 2-2002  |
I am absolutely blown away by the quote "Look at our dear friends, the Catholics." | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yeah, point the finger at the "dear Catholics"--pretty funny. Hey Carol, girl! I lost your e-mail address when my computer crashed and I don't have it on this one at work, e-mail me ;) sabra68@peoplepc.com (I don't care who has my e-mail, Colleen, so don't worry about it being posted.) | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2005 |
They can't shuffle people? The do it all the time! | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 175 Registered: 6-2001  |
This is a pretty big story. Too bad it didn't come out about a month ago during the General Conference. I wouldn't be surprised if Adventists somewhere are looking at this and thinking this "oppression" by the Federal government is the first step toward Sunday law legislation. Ha! My favorite sentence is "Wright remained optimistic that the conference would survive." To me it is the equivalent of Nixon saying "I am not a crook!" or Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman!" Amazingly, Hannah | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2004  |
Benevento, Exactly! The article says:
The do exactly what the Catholic church did! When is an investigation going to be done with the SDA church on this?? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 26, 2005) | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 152 Registered: 2-2005 |
I find it curious that this was done at constituency which I feel is most likely because they knew it was inevitable that all this was going to come out. I'm surprised that the president of the conference wasn't named as one of those involved because he's had credibility issues in the recent past and retained his job only narrowly in the last election. It seems like he would have had to have known something. Heretic (Message edited by Heretic on July 26, 2005) | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 153 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy, That quote you gave was an absolute untruth, if not an outright lie told by Walter Wright. Any conference or union employee who has been in their job for any length of time knows that this is exactly what happens and does so with regularity. I've seen many instances of incompetent employees being promoted up just to get rid of them, some going as far as the General Conference itself. As one example, how else do you get a conference treasurer that requires written instructions for turning on his computer? I kid you not. This was a pastor that no church wanted because he was white and his wife was another nationality, shall we say, so they made him conference treasurer or assistant treasurer, I forget which. Of course, he had virtually no training in accounting or financial statements and eventually ended up getting shipped off to some far corner of the earth. It will be interesting to see what becomes of all of this. Heretic | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 283 Registered: 7-2004  |
But having ordained pastor's filling all of the administrative roles (despite their level of qualification for the task) allow the church to inflate the pastoral salary portion of the budget in the annual reports. It provide a great way of hiding the bloated administrative structure that is supported by the tithe. Even those who support SDA doctrine should be demanding much greater fiscal accountability from the church. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 878 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well Heretic, you can't have a pastor who doesn't obey EGW's command not to "intermarry"! The also just ship off to other places those who commit sexual abuses, etc., just like in the Catholic church. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2329 Registered: 12-2003  |
What an interesting story! It amazes me that Wright would actually raise all those possible concerns in front of the constituency. And as you all said, the reference to our "dear friends" the Catholics is over the top. I think my favorite line was in the first article, where Wright tells the church members not "to speculate". Right. (Did you ever hear something like that during your years in Adventist school? I know I did--although I can't remember what the circumstances were.) And yes, Heretic--Adventists move their people around to avoid the messes they leave behind, but they seldom fire them because of those messes, espcially if the mess can be "covered up". Even Robert Folkenberg was moved out of the public eye when his lawsuit became unavoidably public, but he was NOT fired. Interesting. Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on July 26, 2005) | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2004 |
What was Folkenbergs lawsuit over? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 936 Registered: 7-2003  |
I am a personal witness to the quiet "shuffle" of a teacher that fondled kids. I know first hand that he did it, that administrators knew about it, and that he was moved quietly to avoid a scene. This is the only case I have been personally involved with, but I've heard many other similar reports. Given my experience I am biased towards believing these reports. I think it happens A LOT. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2336 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Chris. I also personally know of one teacher who was moved following an affair, and a year or two later, the "affairee" was likewise moved to the same place. Go figure. I believe it happens a lot. Schasc, Folkenberg's lawsuit, which became public during the last week of 1999, was brought by his Catholic business partner who sued him for several million dollars resulting from a joint business deal which Folkenberg had agreed to pay--but did not. The more deeply the situation was investigated, the more people at the GC level were implicated. Further, it became clear that Folkenberg's business association with this person extended back several decades, and the partner even said that then-GC president Robert Pierson had asked him if he would protect the church if the nature of their joint dealings ever got out. That conversation with Pierson, according to the partner, happened in the 60's. Neil Wilson knew about Folkenberg's dealings with this man, apparently because as part of their agreement, they would split their earnings with their respective 501-C3 organizations: Folkenberg with the SDA church (or with corporations under names that did not implicate the church), and the business partner with one of the Pope's charities. Yes, they split their conjoined earnings between the Catholics and the SDAs. Folkenberg's personal lawsuit brought against him for his personal negligence was settled by GC Risk Management funds without prior consent or knowledge of the GC legal affairs office. One can only surmise why the church was willing to settle a personal lawsuit with church funds. You can read about this debacle on the Adventist Today website (www.atoday.com) in the archives. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 879 Registered: 10-2004 |
I also have known of several cases of "shuffling" in the SDA church. Several included rapists/molestors (pastors/teachers) who were simply shipped around to other places. Other cases involved adultery, drug abuse, theft, etc. (these were all pastors). I believe it is standard procedure in the SDA cult and, as was said above, it happens all the time! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 26, 2005) | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 154 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy, I hear you about adultery. I think I may have mentioned this on another thread a while back, but when I was a kid, our church pastor had an affair with and then married the church secretary, leaving behind his wife and two young children. She was married, as well, to one of the other ministers of the same church. Amazingly, quite a few members of this supposedly conservative church in Orange County stood by him and it divided the church. So, the conference's solution to this problem was to quietly ship him off to Hawai'i with his new wife, where as far as I know they've been for the past 18-20 years. If that's not "shuffling", Mr. Wright, then I'd like to know what is. Heretic (Message edited by Heretic on July 26, 2005) | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 716 Registered: 7-2000 |
I'm sure there are instances of "shuffling" around problem cases, but there are also instances where SDA leaders and church members genuinely try to help those enmeshed in problems. Our case is one of those. Perhaps unique, but never-the-less, we were treated with much love and kindness. We would have never left Adventism if possible...the friends/family ties are huge. Only seeing the clarity and simplicity of Jesus Alone made the difference. The immense doctrinal errors taught as "truth" in Adventism definitely "dethrone" Jesus' supremacy. As Oswald Chambers writes: "The test of any teaching is its' estimate of Jesus Christ. The teaching may sound wonderful and beautiful but watch lest it have at its' center the dethroning of Jesus Christ". grace always, cindy | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 155 Registered: 2-2005 |
Cindy, That's a wonderful, spot-on quote from Chambers. Thanks for posting it. Heretic | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 156 Registered: 2-2005 |
Carol, "Look at our dear friends, the Catholics." -- This is the equivalent to a politician referring to a political or ideological opponent as a "dear friend" when you know he despises the person and all that he stands for. Just watch any of those shows like "The O'Reilly Factor" or "Hannity and Colmes" and you'll see what I mean, especially around election time. Heretic | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2338 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cindy, thank you for your thoughtful post and for the wonderful Oswald Chambers quote. You always have great insight and depth. It's good to hear from you! Give our greetings to your husband, also. Colleen |
