| Author |
Message |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1744
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |     |
Jackob and Belva,
God has truly given me life in abundance since I decided not to rejoin the SDA church. I am constantly amazed because of how I see other people. I am no longer uncomfortable around any one because they do not believe the same as me and NOW I can tell people why I am a Christian. That is so amazing, b/c as an SDA I could not explain anything without mentioning the Sabbath.
Praise God.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2343
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 2:01 pm: | |
So true, Diana. How did one witness as an Adventist without mentioning the Sabbath? After all, it blatantly stood between us and Christianity. It was bound to come up. Franky, though, I can't remember ever really witnessing to a non-SDA when I was in the church. I always thought I was "called" to minister to those "inside".
I now realize how much of that feeling was the result of not knowing what to say to someone "outside". The Sabbath was a bit embarassing, and Jesus wasn't enough. If I got a person interested in Jesus, then I'd have to explain the Sabbath so I could invite him/her to church.
Comparing the church to a drug is a great comparison, Jackob. I know people who "use" their Adventism exactly that way. Without it, they'd be no one, have nothing, and feel lost and desperate. In fact, in many ways it functioned like that in my life as well even though I was more or less "evangelical" for the last 10 years or so.
Praise God for His truth which breaks down all barriers!
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2344
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 9:41 pm: | |
Oops--I nearly reposted my previous message!
(Message edited by Colleentinker on July 28, 2005) |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 9:05 am: | |
I just had a rather interesting conversation with a SDA. She grew up in the church (3rd generation Adventist). Her niece is divorcing; the girl's mother (her sister) wants to keep it all a secret--no one is supposed to tell anyone! The reason for the divorce is unknown to my friend--all the sister will tell her is that it is more the niece's fault than her husband. They have sought counseling together and separately and they have deemed the problems irreconcilable.
My friend could not understand how they thought they could keep it all a secret (I agree). And how they thought it looked good to say that it was mostly the fault of the girl.
The sister of my friend is a die hard Adventist....no jewelry, no theaters, veggie is better, etc.... Her children have lived a very legalistic life....divorce to this mother is practically the unpardonable sin.
My friend does not believe this. We talked about the subject of sin for a while...the fact that the Adventist church used to teach suicide was the unpardonable sin---she does not believe this is true. Do they still think that?
We talked about different sins and how they were all covered on the cross. She agreed that no sin was "bigger" than Christ's death on the cross. He died for all sins...we just have to accept him to be saved.
However, we eventually parted views! She maintains that the rejection of the HOly Spirit will cause a believer in Christ to lose their salvation.
She agrees Christ paid the debt of sin on the cross. That salvation is only through Him. But, in her mind, the Holy Spirit is the continuing process that makes salvation complete and any interruption of this process nullifies salvation for its duration.
We agreed sin was the factor that disconnected us from the power of the HOly Spirit at work within us. And that this sin, whatever it was, was covered on the cross. However, I phrased it I could not get her to see that what she was saying was, the same thing as saying, Christ did not cover all sins on the cross.
Her final comment to me was: what you are saying is the Baptist equivalent of "once saved, always saved".
It's sad, she has no confidence in Christ at all. She prefaces all comments related to her in heaven with, "If I get to heaven,......."
And, this poor niece, going through a divorce, so shamed by her family that they want to hide it. To her mother and father the divorce could affect her salvation.
I am frustrated by the inability to get my friend to understand that salvation is through Christ, and Christ alone. I was encouraged by some of the things we agreed on, however, it all ended with the same Adventist double talk.
Thanks for "listening", I just needed to air my frustration.
Lori
PS Pheeki, thanks for the welcome. I'm not really "new". I was a frequent "post-er" back in 1999-2000. I visit every so often, mostly just to read, I try to stay updated on the every changing approach to maintain Adventism.
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 894
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 9:48 am: | |
Lori, I think what you described is probably quite typical of quite a few Adventists. They have convinced (deceived) themselves into thinking they believe in salvation by grace through faith, when they really don't. They really just believe the same old faith plus works SDA false gospel--it's just described in more Evangelical-sounding ways. It's sad. If people didn't make it sound like grace, maybe they would see the problem! Maybe these folks need to read Ellen's outright "salvation by effort" statements.
It's too bad that people can't just believe God's Word when it says that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption!
Jeremy |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 982
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 10:13 am: | |
Lori, I've been pondering what you said about rejecting the Holy Spirit...First, the Bible says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. I don't know how they deal with that. But I guess in a warped way, it makes sense when you consider they've replaced the Holy Spirit as their seal with that of the sabbath, and if you stop keeping the sabbath, you get the mark of the beast ... so in some "odd" way, it's what they have to believe...that to reject the "Holy Spirit" (and ultimately read that sabbath), you lose your salvation (get the mark of the beast). It's circular reasoning but to make their religious tenets real, I don't know how they can believe any other way without getting the pieces of the proverbial puzzle all misaligned.
Second thought on that, they don't seem to recognize how utterly sinful we are. No matter how "good" I get, I'm still a wretched sinner. I'm so amazed at people who think they "keep" all the commandments. The older I get, the worse I think I am. Not because I'm a "bad" person, but because I'm starting to see my sin more clearly (though, unfortunately, it does not stir me on to be perfect ... no matter how hard I try!)
What got me pondering it was last night on Back to the Bible by Woodroll Kroll, they're studying Romans, and he was in chapter 14...and talking about food and holy days, etc. As I listened to him talking purely about what the scripture says, I couldn't help wondering how any SDAs listening might perceive him, and what he said about things that are critical in their religion. (though he was not addressing adventism, and didn't even mention it.)
What is saddest to me, is they seem so convinced that by keeping the 10 Cs, they've done all they need to do. I do not get it at all! It's quite sad.
(Message edited by melissa on July 29, 2005) |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 608
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 10:17 am: | |
I have been accused by SDA's on CARM of believing in OSAS, like it is a dirty word/thing or something to be ashamed of. I tell them that if they want to call having faith in the assurance of salvation as OSAS, go ahead!
Most of the SDA's I have encountered get very agitated by this doctrine. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 400
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 11:23 am: | |
Melissa, you said "they don't seem to recognize how utterly sinful we are." You hit the nail on the head! It is as if they think that remembering to keep the Sabbath day holy actually qualifies as "righteousness" before God.
You also said "they seem so convinced that by keeping the 10 Cs, they've done all they need to do." As if they actually KEPT the 10 commandments! They do not. They merely affirm that they SHOULD be kept, even though they always break the Sabbath commandment - every single Sabbath day. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between claiming that one should keep a day holy and actually keeping the day holy! It is as if they believe that God winks at their own disobedience merely because they affirm that obedience SHOULD BE rendered.
As if any person could keep anything holy for any amount of time... |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 947
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 11:52 am: | |
Melissa,
Don't be so sure Woodrow wasn't talking to SDAs. Kroll lives right here in the SDA mecca of Lincoln, NE. He attends Lincoln Berean Church where Pastor Bryan Clark and the Lincoln FAF is based.
I have no doubt but that Kroll interacts with SDAs on a very frequent basis.
Chris |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 983
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 2:59 pm: | |
Well, that would certainly explain his message yesterday and how I thought it seemed so "on the mark" as it relates to those who want to keep a holy day or make food an issue of righteousness. But he sure didn't let on by name at all ....
I have enjoyed his Romans series. |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:08 am: | |
Pheeki, being accused of something akin to OSAS is what caused Paul to write, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of anyone who believes".
I also found it extremely interesting when I ran across something else Paul said, and I'm sorry I don't have the time to look it up and tell you the actual verse. He said his job was to "defend and confirm the gospel".
With Adventist you have to defend, defend, defend and be accused of "cheap grace". Occasionally one will finally hear it and understand it for what it is (but then they aren't sure that could really be true) and they need confirmation.
I know that's exactly how I felt when I first understood it. I knew it was true; I had been praying for truth and studying for months; I knew God would not lead me astray. But I was so afraid I was being deceived I needed to have it confirmed by someone who had been searching for truth as well. That's when I found FAF!!!
To embrace the Gospel message, as the only means of salvation, is shameful to most. Most people, not just Adventist, want to have something to do with their salvation, they want to take some of the credit for their being saved.
I haven't found a church that doesn't have some system they think proves you are REALLY a Christian. A list of taboos to be avoided and a do-list of participation in certain church functions. Those who abstain from the list are viewed as "they weren't really saved in the first place".
I'm on that list with more than just the Adventist church. I wouldn't be if I could keep my mouth shut but it makes me mad when people "add a list" behind salvation. And all you have to do to "get in trouble" is say "but it doesn't say that, read what it says, that all it says".
And, Melissa, I know exactly what you mean about realizing how sinful you are!! The more you search, the more you study, the more you learn about Christ, the closer to Him you get the more you see how pathetic you are. We are like a fly in a garbage can! And the King of kings has offered us eternity with Him. That's amazing!!!!! |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 611
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 9:36 am: | |
Lori...my thoughts exactly. The Gospel doesn't make sense to the carnal mind...here is a recent post from an SDA.
Pheeki:The bible says we are sealed for redemption the minute we believe...how can we become more "ready", "worthy", "more righteous"? There is no peace and security in the IJ or "being ready enough".
SDA replies: I think as long as you remain faithful,
Pheeki says...this is not the Gospel...once again it's back on YOU!
you can have peace and security. A "believer" is a faithful child of God who is "walking in the light, as He is in the light (1 Jn. 1:7). The believer is a sheep in the fold of Christ who "hears the voice of Jesus and follows Him" (John 10:27-28).
All the powers of evil on earth or in hell cannot cause a person to be lost who is following the voice of the Shepherd and doing His will. He has "eternal security."
But can a person who is a believer fall away from his faith and cease to be a believer? Can a person's love for Christ grow cold?(Mat 24:12).
Hbr 10:38,39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
I do not agree that because a person believes at one time, they cannot fall away. In other words, seals can be broken.
If they think humans can break a seal God has placed on someone...what must they think of God? |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 507
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 10:14 am: | |
Lori,
I hate that term "cheap grace". It's not cheap! IT'S FREE!!! It cost me nothing! It cost God everything! Calling God's Grace "cheap" is blasphemous in my book.
Chuck Swindoll in his book "The Grace Awakening" says that Paul was accused of having cheap grace. His letter to the Galatians was in part a response to the accusations. Chuck Swindoll also says that whenever we are accussed of "cheap grace" then we can know without a doubt that we really are living the Grace-filled, joy-filled, freedom that God intended! I love that thought! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2358
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 12:36 pm: | |
Great points, Dd. Pheeki, that quote above really illustrates the deceptive nature of heresy. It sounds so logical, so "close" to the real thing in so many ways, but it concludes at a place completely antithetical to the gospel. I'm seeing more and more how confusing "religious" talk can be if a person does not know Jesus.
For example, try discussing whether or not a Muslim worships the same God as a Christian but without the knowledge of Jesusósort of like a Jew might. If a person isn't grounded in Scripture and certain of who God is because of knowing Jesus, the whole discussion mires down into confusion and an attempt to be accepting of the other person's point of view without being discerning about it.
Same with Adventist apologists. We all KNOW what the nature of their confusion is, but get in a conversation with one--and they can end up claiming to agree with you when you KNOW they do not.
Sigh.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 899
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 5:07 pm: | |
Pheeki, what they are actually saying is that the Holy Spirit Himself can be broken, since He is the Seal!! What total blasphemy!!!
And like you said, since God is the one who sealed us, then doesn't that mean that He did a faulty job of sealing us if we can break the seal???!!
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on August 03, 2005) |
Schasc
Registered user
Username: Schasc
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 3:58 pm: | |
I know this has probably been discussed on another forum, but could someone help me through this "little " question? Can a Christian ever give up his/her salvation? Can someone literally say I dont want it anymore? As Adventist growing up we always believed that so I was just wondering everyones thoughts on that. If this is on another forum someone let me know where I can go look at the discussion.......Thanx all |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 965
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 4:51 pm: | |
quote:THE SAFEST PLACE
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:28
We believe in the eternal security of the saints. First, because they are Christ's, and He will never lose the sheep which He has bought with His blood, and received of His Father.
Next, because He gives them eternal life, and if it be eternal, well then, it is eternal, and there can be no end to it, unless there can be an end to hell, and Heaven, and God. If spiritual life can die out, it is manifestly not eternal life, but temporary life. But the Lord speaks of eternal life, and that effectually shuts out the possibility of an end.
Observe, further, that the Lord expressly says, "They shall never perish." As long as words have a meaning, this secures believers from perishing. The most obstinate unbelief cannot force this meaning out of this sentence.
Then, to make the matter complete, He declares that His people are in His hand, and He defies all their enemies to pluck them out of it. Surely it is a thing impossible even for the fiend of hell. We must be safe in the grasp of an Almighty Saviour.
Be it ours to dismiss carnal fear as well as carnal confidence, and rest peacefully in the hollow of the Redeemer's hand.
óFaith's Checkbook, June 7 entry, C.H. Spurgeon
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 607
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 5:58 pm: | |
Amen Chris to that Spurgeon statement. He says things as well as can be said. Since salvation is a miracle of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, that God the Father ordained from before the foundation of the world, and Christ the Lamb slain before that foundation purchased us by His own blood on Calvary, and then the Holy Spirit--and not the Sabbath--sealing us and preserving us to the end, seems like a sure thing to me. Our hearts are changed, and our wills are changed, therefore if a person willed to get out of this relationship, then it would prove that the new birth in that person was not genuine.
Amazing grace indeed!
Stan
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Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 593
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 6:00 pm: | |
Dear Chris, what a wonderful thing you have posted here. I know very well where Schase is coming from because so much insecurity is built into SDAism that it amazes me it is still around as an organization. If it were not religious in configuration, it probably would have died out long ago. It is so sad that we are willing to be tormented by religions when we would fight back against any other sort of organization.
What you have posted here should be stitched into a sampler and hung on a wall in each of our homes.
Belva |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 904
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 6:59 pm: | |
AMEN to that great Spurgeon quote! Thanks for posting it Chris--it's wonderful!
Stan summed it up well, and I agree with your comments Belva about the abusive SDA religion.
If anyone tells you that you can lose/relinquish your salvation, they are preaching a false man-centered teaching. Any teaching that exalts man in any way and/or lowers God in any way is a false teaching.
Jeremy |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 968
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 8:20 pm: | |
You may enjoy this audio debate:
Eternal Security: A Debate Between Steve Gregg and Tom Morris - May 2001
By the way, Steve Gregg is the same Steve Gregg who edited the excellent book Revelation, Four Views: A Parallel Commentary.
Chris |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 513
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 10:21 pm: | |
Hello Schasc,
It is good to "see" you here since I never actually "see" you in our little home town!
One thing I noticed when I started really looking through God's Word for myself was the use of the verb when talking about eternal life. Take the well know verse of John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes on Him HAS eternal life." It is not will have or could have -- it is a definite form of the verb...we most definitely HAVE eternal life through our belief in Jesus Christ.
"Whoever drinks of the water that I WILL give him shall NEVER thrist...the water that I WILL GIVE him WILL become in him a well of water springing up to ETERNAL LIFE" (John 4:14). I firmly believe eternal life is a new quality of life, which I have NOW as a present possession and it is what I will possess forever.
John 5:24 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Eternal life is a present aspect - a quality of life, a personal statisfaction and sense of fulfillment in my earthly life here and now and for all my future. Jesus gives me eternal life and the Holy Spirit seals me (Eph. 1:13). God provides all this for me by His grace and He says in Eph. 2:8 that I HAVE BEEN SAVED - it's done - I don't see where I can lose. It's a done deal. He took care of me. It's mine because of what He did 2000+ years ago! His grace is sufficient for ME (2 Cor. 12:9)!
S, I hope this is what you were looking for. If not, keep asking questions. I most likely will not know the answers but I know the Bible will have them and I love looking for them!
Your friend,
Denise
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Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 594
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 11:17 pm: | |
Thank you all for posting these promises from our precious Saviour. I also love that we are all sharing that our lives right now, whether things are going swimmingly or not, are just the beginning of eternity with Jesus. I've faced the fact that throwing my lot in with Jesus isn't going to put money in the bank, or success as it is measured humanly, or any of those things. In fact we have to face that once we accept Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we can bet that things are going to get more difficult to deal with in some aspects of our lives. Satan loves to keep us off kilter and doubting our relationship with Jesus, but when we become confident of that most important relationship, the devil is going to throw everything he can at us. That's why he's trying to distract us and make us doubt the reality and reliability of God's word. I think somewhere in one of Paul's epistles he made it clear that the most real thing we have, the effect of God's promises to us, is that which we cannot see, and all of the "stuff" in our lives that swirls around us every day, that is the illusion. All I'm saying is that we can count our blessings when things go wrong because that shows us that we've got the devil on the run.
Belva |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 733
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 9:15 am: | |
Belva and Dd, Yes, those promises are wonderful. I often must stop & remember who I am IN CHRIST, completely safe in His care...seated in heavenly places with Him!
grace,
cindy |
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