| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 922 Registered: 7-2003  |
Melissa, as I understand it, Martin read through nearly all of EGWs major works and many of her more minor articles as well. Martin did extensive research on his own apart from the SDAs he dialogued with. What really convinced him that SDAs were not a cult was these men's insistence that they only considered EGW to be pastoral (not authoritative) and the they only considered her to be pastoral within their own denomination. Martin took them at their word and came away believing that SDAs consider EGW to be just one writer and one opinion among many, no more or less authoritative than any other inpirational commentator. Of course, insiders know that conclusion was absolutely wrong. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 969 Registered: 7-2003  |
Thanks for that clarification, Chris. When I read him, he seemed very "generous" towards her works. I can't imagine why things didn't scream at him. I guess I was just hoping ... Did he speak to any of the masses or just the few select leaders? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 858 Registered: 10-2004  |
So if that is why he concluded they weren't a cult, then why was he still saying the same things in 1983, when since 1980 their official statement of beliefs boldly stated that "her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth"?? Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 923 Registered: 7-2003 |
Melissa, Martin met with a small group of leaders who I believe probably really were part of an evangelical movement within Adventism during the late 1950s. However, there was a subsequent backlash against evagelical leaders that resulted in the ouster of many evangelical pastors and leaders in the 1970s and 1980s. In my opinion, the SDA group has been struggling to nail down it's identity ever since and is actually moving farther away from evangelicalism in two different directions; liberalism and historic Adventism. Jeremy, I don't understand it either, but here's a quote from the Martin's book Kingdom of the Cults, 1997 edition:
Oddly enough, I think Martin is almost harder on the critics of Adventism and EGW than he is on Adventism itself. He several times states that the critics and misrepresented official SDA doctrine and the statements of EGW. Chris Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2318 Registered: 12-2003  |
You know, this phenomenon you describe, Chris, is one that I have come to believe is one of the clearest marks of the truly evil nature of Adventism. (Yes, I know I've used a trigger wordóevilóbut the Bible is clear about people who deceive.) Those who are formed, taught, and seasoned in Adventism KNOW what it really teaches. When one of them leaves the church and begins to talk about it, the most common reaction from the Christian community today is disbelief. (I still say the analogy of a child escaping an abusive but high-profile family is an apt example of this dilemma.) An outsider CANNOT know what goes on inside. In spite of what they say, insiders defending themselves to outsiders looking on will NOT tell the truth about the church. In fact, they cannot, because they have a veil over their spiritual eyes, and they are completely "brainwashed" to believe what they've been taught. I'm beginning to believe that our willingness to speak out and "go public" is one of the most long-term helpful things we can do. When people begin hearing the same reality over and over, when they begin encountering we who have left (or have dealt with Adventists personally) in increasing numbers, when they become exposed to the materials available--sooner or later people begin to see the truth. I just pray that God will expose and break the spirit of Adventism and sest free those in bondage. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 357 Registered: 7-2000 |
What's strange is how many 'liberal' SDA's you meet on other Christian forums. Over and over the same question comes up from someone about 'what do SDA's believe'. Sure enough, you can count on several liberal SDA's asserting that all of the things the 'formers' say are lies. So, then we formers start posting direct quotes and links to sites proving that what we say is the truth. Little bit, by little bit the rest of the online community comes around to seeing our viewpoint. It's a hard fight and I've been in on several of them----but it's worth it! Anyway, the members of the liberal SDA churches are some of the toughest folks to fight as they are some of the most deceitful about what SDA's teach.......... | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 218 Registered: 1-2003  |
There is a tremendous "gulf" between what the SDA position is officially and that of the rank and file person in the pew. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 555 Registered: 3-2005 |
I had the privilege of sitting in the weekly Bible classes of Dr. Martin in Costa Mesa. I knew him personally, and it was a great thrill to introduce my Dad to him. Since 1983, and that is when Jeremy referenced that one article, his opinion of Adventism started to gradually change. Robert Morey was challenging Martin's conclusions. I would bring him all kinds of material for him to look at. I could see by the look in his eyes, that he was starting to see that he may have been duped. I have told this story before, but Robert Morey had lunch with Martin 1 week before his untimely death in 1989. At that time Martin admitted to Morey that the SDA church had lied to him about what EGW thought of the nature of Christ. His intent was to move Adventism back to the Kingdom of the cults, but he never had the opportunity. He died one week later while on his knees in prayer. Martin had put himself on the line over the SDA debate. I think he actually had an agenda to defend his position up until about 1985 or so. He really thought Adventism to be a minor problem when compared to the rampant Word-Faith heresy. I also think martin was always wanting to believe the best about people, and sometimes this got in the way. The irony is, however, that more people may have left Adventism, because he was so kind. Then they were motivated to read that appendix at the back of the book of "Kingdom", and thereby people became exposed to the false teachings of Adventism, and many, including myself were highly influenced. God is sovereign, and He used Martin in a mighty way. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 924 Registered: 7-2003 |
Richard, I am going to lovingly and gently disagree with you. I have SDA friends all over the country and have been to two SDA universities. I find that, by and large, the historic positions of the SDA group are defended by rank and file members even if they don't fully understand them or tend to mute certain aspects of those doctrines (EGW included). I do not mean this as a knock, it is much closer to a compliment, California is NOT representative of U.S. Adventism. And to an even greater degree, Celebration Center is not representative of any kind of Adventism that would be recognizable to most rank and file Adventists. Once again, that's a compliment not a critique. The SDAs in my area think you all are a bunch of heretics out on the Left Coast. :-) To be brutally honest, they are particularly appalled by the very existence of Celebration and other charismatic SDAs and believe that you have been infected by Satan and Babylon. Just ask my in-laws. They are members of one of the largest, more progressive SDA churches in the midwest, but they were terribly offended by their visit to Celebration and do not consider it to be "Adventist". Quite frankly, neither do I. Once again, that may sound offensive to you, but it is really a commendation. It is my sincere prayer that Celebration will altogether renounce the last few connections it has with Adventism and take the last step to non-denominational independence (a process it has been in for many years and especially so since it began promoting giving to the local church instead of giving tithes to the conference). You should know that I have been praying for Celebration and for their freedom from Adventism lately. I will continue to do so. My point is, once you get outside California you will find widespread belief and support for Adventism as it has historically existed. I know, because I interact with SDAs everyday that are eager to defend EGW and the IJ and they are most definately not on the fringe of Adventism. I hope you're not terribly offended because that is most certainly NOT my intent. I am merely offering a different perspective that is largely influenced by geographic and sociological differences. Your brother in love and in Christ, Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 219 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris, not offended. I appreciate your comments. Richard | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 859 Registered: 10-2004 |
Chris, you mentioned the members defending historic SDAism in the US, and I believe that in the rest of the world (which is where about 95% of Adventists live) the rank and file SDAs are even more traditional/historical than in the US. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2319 Registered: 12-2003 |
This seemed a good place to keep a promise I made to Eric Bahme. Eric was an Adventist pastor in the Washington Conference and was fired in the late 90s (during my Adventist Today period!). AT ran a story about him when he was fired. Many of his congregation actually left with him, and he conducted an independent Sabbath church for a few years after that. I recently received an email from him. He is now pastoring a Foursquare Church in Portland, Oregon, and he asked that I share this paragraph on the forum: "I wanted to at least say hello to many people who have prayed for us and especially to Coleen! There is so much beyond Adventism. I am more convinced than ever after having been away from the SDA church that Adventism is really a cult. I rejoice in the freedom I find as a Foursquare Pastor in sharing the gospel of Jesus with so many lost and hurting. Blessings to all -- stay close to Jesus -- HE Really is the answer." So, for those of you who know Eric, there's a recent message from him! It's reassuring to see how God leads and blesses all of us as we commit ourselves to Him. Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 358 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, good post and one I'm in agreement with. Actually, it's not so much California as it is the SDA ghetto's wherever they are. They (and usually the religion departments close to them) form some of the weirdest and most heretical congregations imaginable. Many of these are not SDA by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 221 Registered: 1-2003 |
Loneviking, heretical to Adventism or Christianity? or both? Richard | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 |
When I was late in my nursing education at Union College Tricia and I were able to go on a "medical" mission trip to Brazil and work on the medical Boats on the Amazon river. Actually we followed the "camp meeting schedule". We went village to village providing medical and dental care during the day and the conference would provide meetings in the evening and morning. When Saturday would role around the women had to wear dresses and the men pants and a shirt. This was all day! We were told that that was what was expected by the Indians and we needed to follow the rules. No swimming unless we took the launch down river into a cove away from the campmeeting area where people could not see the "americans" swimming. As I look back on the experience today my heart is sad. This is what I remember campmeeting being for me as a child in the early to mid 70's here in the States. We did provide a lot of medical care but also a lot of religious sickness. Brian | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 |
My point of the last post seems to have been lost in my rambling! There is a wide range in the practice of Adventism around the world. I believe the majority to be conservative in their practice of Adventism. Brian | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 359 Registered: 7-2000 |
Richard, both! Have you ever been over to Riverside Community Church? Totally heretical to anything Christian--at least when Tammy was there. Then you have your church which is heretical to mainline and conservative SDA's. Also, the ideas that Dan Simpson brought in of Universalism (which is also in the Maxwell crowd over at LLU) is heretical to Christianity in general. So, I'd say both! | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2000 |
BTW, Richard, I didn't mean anything personal by that last post. I've seen similar problems at Kettering and PUC.......... | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 |
Also along the lines of Walter Martin. It frustrates me that Hank Hanagraff Sp? of The Bible Answer Man Show, soft pedals the questions on Adventism on his radio show. He will hammer Mormons, Jw's etc but is plays nicey, nicey when it comes to Adventism. Brian | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 |
It seems that quite a few formers seem to be pulled towards the Universalism camp. Brian |
