| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2004  |
We had an interesting experience at church today. We visited a new church that we had been considering visiting for months now. Raven's NT college class requires that she (we) visit different churches and answer certain questions about the sermon. So we are using this to look around at several churches that had interested us. This week we went to a celebration Lutheran church. This is a small church plant that meets in a nearby SDA church. That alone was awkward (and a reason we hadn't tried this church before). I was distracted throughout the service by the stained glass three angels directly behind the pulpit. It wasn't the cryptic three flying together in a stylized fashion. These were three distinct angels, one holding an open Bible, one pouring a bowl of wrath, and the center one holding the ten commandments. I spent too much of the service thinking about the emphasis on angels versus Jesus, on the stone tables versus the cross, and on God's wrath versus His grace. And of course I couldn't help but think about this stained glass pointing out the SDA idea that all of us meeting in the building were a part of Babylon (in the eyes of SDAs). We don't discuss our reactions to the church until we are in the car. The first things my wife commented about was how disturbing the stained glass window was for her. I'm trying to figure out a nice way to word an email to the pastor. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 711 Registered: 7-2000 |
Ric_b, That's interesting; I haven't seen a "Three Angel" presentation like that! I know a number of Sunday churches rent from SDA churches; I guess it would bother me to have to attend those churches much since their rent would be helping Adventism out too much with their budget... I'm assuming you are talking about e-mailing the Lutheran pastor? Yes, I think it would be a good idea to share your background and how those stained-glass angels actually come across--an emphasis of angels over Jesus... and the law on stone instead of the Jesus Christ now in our hearts and minds. grace always, cindy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1728 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ric_b, Those 3 angels would bother me also. I will be praying for you as you send an email to the Lutheran pastor. God deserves so much more than that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ric, Reading about your reaction to the three angels in church this week reminded me of a "three angels experience" my husband and I had a while back while attending an SDA church with relatives. This church had recently remodeled the sanctuary and proudly installed a flat metal sculpture of three angels which was mounted on the wall behind the pulpit. The sculpture is mounted so that it hangs out about a foot away from the wall and they shine spotlights down onto the angels so that they cast a larger than life shadow on the wall. (Wait, I'm not finished) Remember the old aluminum Christmas trees of the 50's where you had a spot light aimed at the tree that revolved from green to blue to red to yellow? Well, they had the same thing going so, as if the shadows weren't distracting enough, you watched them change colors. I have no idea what the minister preached about (which could have been a blessing in itself) because I spent the entire time anticipating which color was going to appear next and how many seconds would lapse between each color change. The most disturbing thing about this was that, unlike you and Raven, who were able to discuss your experience once you got in the car, we got in the car with our relatives and couldn't say a thing to each other! But when our eyes met, words weren't needed. We just smiled. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well, at least you will remember the angels smiling down on you in church. At the Lincoln, Nebraska College Church you will have dear Ellen's face gazing serenely down on you. Not Jesus, Not Angels, Not some great patriarch from scripture, Ellen. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2003  |
Belva, you get treated to both in the CVC sanctuary! The three angels on your left, Ellen and the Decalogue (complete with glowing "IV") on your right. However, to be fair, the stained glass in the foyer is well worth seeing. Redemptive history from Eden Lost to Eden Restored is portrayed across the entire length of the building. The panoramic epice requires a short walk to see each scene. It's really very impressive and beautiful. You can get some sense of how huge the mural is from this exterior shot where the mural can be seen stretching the length of the building: http://www.ucollege.edu/PUBLICRELATIONS/IMAGES/CVC2.GIF Chris | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 578 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wow, that is big! What happened to the old building? I remember when I was there in 1966 it was the largest wooden church in the midwest. It really was an impressive structure and I loved the way sound reverberated around the vastness of the main sanctuary. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 911 Registered: 7-2003 |
The old building was demolished after the new one was built. Chris | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2005 |
Belva, They have Ellen's face up front behind the pulpit?!?! If so, all I can say is wow. Just wow! Julie | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 915 Registered: 7-2003 |
Woolie, no CVC does NOT have EGW behind the pulpit. She is one element of a large, complex, stained glass mural that is situated high above the congregation on the right hand side (if your facing the dais) of the sanctuary. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2308 Registered: 12-2003  |
At Weimar, the health-conditioning center in the Sierra's based on the EGW "blueprint" NEWSTART program, they do have Ellen's picture behind the pulpit in the chapel. Weimar does not have its own church; those on campus attend local SDA churches. But they do have a chapel, and there's a picture of Ellen and the church pioneers in a prayer meeting. We attended Richard's aunt's funeral there a few years ago, and that picture behind the pulpit sort of made the hair stand up on the backs of our necks. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 276 Registered: 7-2004  |
We sent an e-mail to the pastor who holds their Sunday service in the SDA church. We briefly explained our background, what that stained glass window represented, and how it affected us. He sent us back a very kind reply that said he hopes someday we will feel comfortable worshipping with them, because after all, the first Christians "worshipped in homes, Jewish synagogues, Roman and Greek town halls, and even pagan temples." I'm not so sure about the pagan temple part, but he does have a point! I did feel, however, that he probably doesn't understand our explanation of what's wrong with the SDA church--he went out of his way to remind us that God is love and doesn't want us to point fingers, etc. I did like his attitude, but like most mainstream pastors, he doesn't understand what we're getting at. Oh well, we sent the e-mail because it seemed like we should tell him how much we enjoyed his sermon (we did!) and then let him in on a few facts about the SDA religion. We might go back sometime. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 917 Registered: 7-2003 |
Raven, our pastor has much the same approach. In fact, we originally met him when our SDA church plant was renting out his building on Saturdays. He let us have it for almost nothing because he believed he was helping out fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Since we've transitioned we've attempted to educate him on some of the issues. I think he's started to get a basic idea of the seriousness of some of the issues, but he's such a loving non-judgmental man that he's very slow to judge anyone or anything, including Adventism. I think I can learn a lot from such a gentle spirit, but sometimes I wish those outside of Adventism could glimpse what a big deal it is to those of us who have come out. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2312 Registered: 12-2003 |
I completely agree with both of you, Raven and Chris. They believe that our "issues" are dividing the body of Christ. The point I wish they understood is that our concern isn't just because of our "experiences"; it's because we're not dealing with true Christianity. The issue here is heresy versus the gospel. As Richard just said, "I don't think it's OK to be loving and gentle when it comes to heresy. The early church couldn't afford to be gentle about heresy." The pastors you mention don't realize they're dealing with heresy, not just variations on Christianity. Do you think the pastors you mentioned might benefit from Proclamation, or do you think that might not be warranted? Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 356 Registered: 7-2000 |
I've only faced the problem of a pastor unsure or unknowing of what SDA's teach on a couple of occasions. I just take them through the SDA belief of 'thought inspiration' along with EGW as an 'authoritative and continuing source of authority. I then ask them 'based on just these two beliefs, which are radically different from yours and Evangelical christianity, why do you expect the rest of their beliefs to be any closer to the truth? How can you ignore beliefs that have more in common with Mormonism and the JW's than orthodox Christianity?' Both of these pastors got the idea and decided that the SDA's were something to be avoided. What really bugs me about this whole topic is that the reason so many Christians are willing to give SDA's a pass is because the LANGUAGE and TERMS that they use sound orthodox! SDA's work hard to deceive the rest of Christianity as to what they really are. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good point Loneviking. The terminology and language are part of the deception. (Pardon me if I sound paranoid...I suppose I am.) But seriously, this IS a problem, not just with evangelical pastors, but even with people INSIDE the SDA church who don't understand what they are ACTUALLY supporting. Just this weekend, I was confronted with someone who suggested that we can 'interpret' the Bible differently and still both be in right standing with God. While I wholeheartedly support this view when it comes to non-essentials of the Christian faith, their view of some essentials is heretical, not just simply disagreeable to me. (Am I making sense?) Patria | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 919 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, I think our testimony, and that of our fellow former SDAs, is probably going to have the biggest impact overtime on our pastor. I can tell from conversations that he already has come a long way in his understanding of what Adventism really is. I'm not sure he would see the necessity of a magazine like Proclamation. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about my pastor. I'm truly not. I love the man dearly. I'm really complaining about a certain blindness to Adventism's malignancy that exists throughout evagelical Christianity even extending to some cult watchers like Walter Martin. I think part of the problem is that Christians assume SDAs have the same attitude as they do. So I've heard many people, including pastors say things like, "Well I have no problem if someone wants to worship on Saturday. As far as I'm concerned you can worship God any day of the week so that's okay with me" Alright...... but is it "okay" with the SDAs if you worship on resurrection day? Do they have the same live and let live attitude as you do or are they using their vast resources to convince others that you are part of Babylon? I once put together a curricullum for transitioning SDAs and showed it to my pastor. He couldn't understand why we would want to debate some items. He said, "I guess I don't care if someone wants to believe they sleep in the ground until the second coming. I don't believe that, but if others do it's okay with me". Alright...... but is it "okay" with the SDAs if you preach about going to be with the Lord at death? Do they have the same live and let live attitude as you do or are they using their vast resources to convince others that you are teaching the very first lie ever told by Satan? The list could go on and on. Basically the Christian community see these things as non-essentials that shouldn't divide us, not suspecting that for SDAs they are the very things that divide God's true remnant church from Babylon. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2316 Registered: 12-2003 |
I understand, Chris. I have wondered why it's so hard to get pastors to understand the problems with Adventism; sometimes it seems as if they hear us and don't really believe us. Exposure really is the necessary element. I'm beginning to understand the significance of something I've heard our pastor say a few times over the years: "So many people who leave Adventism have such intense reactions to it that it makes me realize there is a problem." At first I felt frustrated when I heard that; can't he see the heresy they teach? Recently, though, I've realized that I can thank God Gary takes our consistent reactions seriously. It's a sort of variation of what Jesus said to the Jews, "Even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38). Even if Gary hasn't grasped the deceptive twisting of doctrine Adventists believe (and as the years have passed, he has come to understand more and more deeply this reality), he believed the consistency of the reactions he saw. Believing this consistency made him open to understanding the true nature of the heresy. So, you're right, Chris--the best way we can "help" people understand is our own witness. Eventually they may come to realize enough that they'll be open to examining the doctrines. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 856 Registered: 10-2004  |
A few weeks ago or so, I read an old interview with Walter Martin (http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/WalterMartinInterview.txt), and he said that he had thought that EGW was a great Christian writer and had regarded her as "a sister in the Lord" who had a prophetic gift from GOD!!! This was in 1983 even, and he gave no indication that he no longer felt that way. Here's what Martin said in the interview:
What I can't understand is how Martin could not see that EGW taught a false gospel! And how could he think that Ellen was ok, but not Joseph Smith or other false prophets? I don't understand it. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 968 Registered: 7-2003  |
Jeremy as one who relied heavily on Martin's conclusion about adventism when I remained in my relationship, I have tried to reconcile that conclusion as well. The only thing I can reconcile is that they were very selective in the information they provided him and perhaps he didn't read that extensively on his own? Just guessing. She did have a lot of stuff to sort through. I think some of it too could be that dictionary we frequently talk about. Without this forum and the websites that exist by other formers' I'm not sure i wouldn't still be wondering if the conclusions I had arrived at regarding adventism were fair and right. It's much easier to be bold in your conclusions when you don't feel alone in them. I try to give him a lot of grace because I was duped and don't like to think I was just blinded by emotional muck. The language barrier is huge, and just figuring out the "right" questions to ask takes some time in and of itself. I've had the same response Chris and others have mentioned when trying to "warn" people about adventism. I think most are more focused on their own walk than trying to understand "other" beliefs. I don't think most really understand JWs or Mormons. They just have a universally accepted label. SDAs don't have that universally accepted label and people avoid anything associated accordingly. It's frustrating when you feel you're hitting your head against a brick wall. Maybe that's how Noah felt in his day??? |
