| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 899 Registered: 7-2003  |
No, I don't think so. It's an unbroken chain. I'll try to explain, but please understand I'm not totally there yet either and find myself just as frustrated as Patria when I think through all this. Total Depravity is the doctrine that sin thoroughly infects our total being, body, mind, and spirit. It does not mean that we are as depraved as it is possible to be, only that every aspect of our existence is affected by the Fall in such a way that we are completely incapable of responding to God or even seeking God. It is the idea that no sinner actually seeks God and no sinner can say "yes" to God or exercise any sort of faith because they are absolutely spiritually dead. Not asleep, not weak, not compromised, Dead-Dead with a capital "D". Now, if that's true, then the fact that anyone at all is saved means that God made that person spirituall alive, regenerated their spirit so that they could respond to God. This has to be a sovereign act, because there is nothing in the spiritually dead person that can respond until such time as God regenerates their spirit for them. So here you have Unconditional Election. God chose to regenerate that person not based on any condition that dead person met, but purely based upon God's own sovereign will. So now we have a regenerate person that has been born again as a sovereign act of God. It follows that Christ made atonement for this person and that that atonement is completely effective. Since Christ's atonement is 100% effective it stands to reason that He did not make atonement for anyone whom he did not choose to regenerate. If he had made atonement for them they would have been regenerated. If God sovereignly choose to reach down and cause some to be regenerated, made alive spiritually, and if there was nothing at all that those individuals did to meet any requirement or condition, and the atonement has already been paid for those individuals, then it seems that God's sovereign act of regeneration is always effective, it's not something the sinner can resist because if it were, the person dead in sin would resist. But what's more, person who has been made spiritually alive by God regenerative act will now naturally WANT to respond to God and commune with God. There is no scenario in which a truly regnerate person would or could refuse God's grace. So we now have Irresistable Grace. It's no that the person is dragged kicking and screaming to God, it's that God regernerates them sovereignly, makes them a new creature, and now they respond to God's grace because it is what they truly want by virtue of their new nature, but their new nature is a product of God's sovereign act. Finally, a person who has been chosen, regenerated, atoned for, and drawn by irresistable grace, cannot possibly some how become unregenerate, unatoned for, and impervious to irresistable grace. God's sovereign act cannot suddenly become ineffective, His choice, calling, will and predestination be discarded. Because God is sovereign, because salvation is His work from start to finish, because salvation is not dependent on the creature in any way, and because salvation does not depend on any condition the fact that God's chosen will persevere to the end is a given. It has been decreed, predestined, and will occur. I hope this helps to clarify how these points stand or fall together. I would say though that if you believe that a person is not so totally depraved that they can't and won't respond to God, then all bets are off. Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 842 Registered: 10-2004  |
Thanks for that great explanation, Chris! So why aren't we all Calvinists, then?! Hehe.  I mean the Bible says that we are dead before we are saved, so it seems that GOD (all by Himself) has to make us alive... But back to Patria's question, I don't see how that fits with the texts that say that God's election/predestination is based on his foreknowledge, unless that has nothing to do with our choice... Hmm. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 15, 2005) | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2003 |
I am so thankful for this forum. I have learned so much. But the more I learn, the more I realize what I don't know. Colleen, I like the quote that you posted "...the answer is somehow to be found in an awareness of God's infinite greatness, in the knowledge of the fact that he can do far more than we could ever think possible." I think I posted this quote before, but I'll do it again. It is from the Believing God study by Beth Moore. "...if in our pursuit of greater theological knowledge God has gotten smaller, we've been deceived--unintentioanlly but decieved all the same. I am utterly convinced that God is bigger than we will ever stretch our faith to conceive." In Adventism we had everything neatly boxed up for us (some of our boxes were red, mine were black and the kids had blue ones with pictures) with all the answers we ever wanted. Now, having the mysteries and not all the answers reminds me of how big God really is. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. Isaiah 55:8 "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?" Rom 11:33,34 Leigh | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 900 Registered: 7-2003 |
Romans 8:28-30 (NASB) 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. The question is how we should take the word "foreknew" here? Does it mean "Those who He foreknew would repent and believe by their own choice" or does it mean "Those He foreknew would be regenerated by His sovereign choice"? I think Barnes Notes on the New Testament might be helpful here:
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| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 901 Registered: 7-2003 |
I thought of one other thing that might make it more clear why the 5 points of the TULIP must stand together (particularly if Total Depravity is true). Please carefully consider the following statement. It may not seem like a big deal at first, but I think as you ponder it, you will see how it opens a theological gulf that is as wide as the ocean: In Arminianism, faith comes before regeneration. In Calvinism, regeneration comes before faith. Do you get it?!?!?! That's huge! In Arminian thought you basically have 3 classes of people; 1. Those who don't know God and don't want to, 2. Those who are "seeking" or who are "in the valley of decision", or who "haven't made their decision for Christ yet". 3. And those who have made their decision, professed faith, and then received salvation and regeneration. In Calvinism there are ultimately only two classes of people that can be perceived: 1. The unregenerate who are dead and unable to make any choice. 2. The regenerate who are alive by the sovereign choice of God. In Calvinism, there are no "seekers" because the unregenerate cannot and will not seek God. There are no people "in the valley of decision" because the dead do not make choices. It would be non-sensical to talk about such a thing as "resistable" grace because it is not a choice. God either bestows His grace on you by regnerating your spirit or He does not. It is then an accomplished fact. Once you have received regeneration, there is no sense talking about resisting something that is already done, completed forever. As an aside, it can also be seen why Calvinist are none too fond of those who do "decision based" evagelism or "seeker oriented" evangelism like Billy Graham or Rick Warren respectively. There is no sense in asking a dead person to make a choice about anything. They cannot and will not choose God if the doctrine of Total Depravity is true. If this first point is true, the rest are as well by necessity. That is, if God must regenerate the spirit before any response is possible, then the TULIP is established. In Arminianism, faith comes before regeneration. In Calvinism, regeneration comes before faith. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 538 Registered: 3-2005 |
Patria, I liked your post above. Don't worry about those tears of frustration you speak of. Because of my strict Adventist upbringing that was so grounded in works righteousness, it took me about 8 years of studying these issues before I became convinced that the Reformed view of salvation was the purest form of salvation by grace through faith alone. I backslid for a few years, but now my interest has been rekindled in this topic in a new and refreshing way. After 22 years of being out of Adventism, and now seeing in retrospect how God worked so sovereignly in my own life, then these doctrines mean so much more to me now, because it is not just a philosophical discussion, but a life reality. His grace never ceases to amaze me. Loneviking, Do you have information as to who those books you talked about at the end of your post? I understand your concern about Calvinism and evangelism. I think what you are talking about is the hyper-Calvinists view that we should not evangelize. This extreme view is not Calvinism at all, but a counterfeit. Some of the greatest evangelists (Charles Spurgeon), and greatest missionaries (David Livingston), have been Calvinists. Spurgeon talked about this problem in his famous sermon defending Calvinism which you can read at www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm Another aspect of what Spurgeon said that I like is his gracious attitude to other Christians who disagreed with him on these issues. He said he dislikes the teachings of John Wesley, but regarded him as a brother in Christ. I don't think discussions about this topic should cause bitterness. Instead, it should raise our appreciation for what a gracious God we serve. Chris, I agree with Jeremy that you gave an articulate and concise defense of Reformed theology, especially for someone who says they are not wholly convinced. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 539 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, I agree again with your last post. But I want to emphasize, that those in the Reformed movement are just as zealous for missions and evangelism, because we don't know who the Elect are, and that is God's business. He has commanded us to preach the gospel and make disciples. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 844 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wait a minute, does Calvinism really teach that regeneration comes BEFORE faith?? Then how could the Bible say in Ephesians 2 that we are saved through faith? Wouldn't we already BE saved/regenerated??? How would faith then be anything other than a result/fruit of salvation, just like good works are??? I could maybe see faith and regeneration being simultaneous, but how could regeneration come BEFORE faith? Also, how can faith be a result of salvation, when Romans 10 says that belief results in righteousness and confession results in salvation?? Does Calvinism teach that regeneration and salvation are two separate things??? Also, what about those people who say that they ARE seeking God? These questions are for anyone who can answer them. Jeremy | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 354 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, Stan, why would God command us to preach the gospel and make disciples? According to Calvanism, we don't 'make' disciples---only God does. Why should we preach if God alone is responsible for hunting down and bringing to church the elect. I have never heard an answer to this question that makes any sense.............. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 355 Registered: 7-2000 |
Stan, Why I am not a Calvinist is by Jerry L. Walls Why I am not an Arminian is by Robert Peterson Grace, Faith and Free Will, Contrasting views of Salvation by Robert E. Picirilli......this is a comparison of the opposing viewpoints of Calvinism and Arminianism. All are available on Amazon.com and often on half.com | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 902 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeremy, Yes, the statement "Regeneration preceeds faith" is an accurate portrayal of Calvinistic doctrine. However, the Calvinist would be quick to add that in a temporarl sense, Justification and Faith come at the moment of regeneration and could be considered to be simultaneous with regeneration. However, in terms of the cause/effect relationship, God regenerates the spirit first, then the person is given faith as a direct result of God's sovereign act of regeneration (and NOT the other way around). Although I cannot speak for Calvinist on their view of the relationahip of regeneration to salvation, I would say that while regeneration and salvation do go hand in hand, they are not the exact same thing. Regeneration occurs at a finite point in time while salvation has temporal aspects that are past, present, and future. As to those who claim to be "seeking", but have not made up their mind. I think Calvinist would simply cite the following: Romans 3:10-12 (NASB) 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." John 6:44 (NASB) 44 "No one can come to Me [Jesus] unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Ephesians 2:1-10 (NASB) 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Romans 9:16 (NASB) 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 540 Registered: 3-2005 |
Loneviking, When I was an SDA growing up, we were taught that if we didn't witness for our faith, then a person would be lost because because we didn't witness to him, and the guilt trip was always on us. Now, with an understanding of God's sovereignty, it is very liberating to know that God wants to use us to reach the elect for Him. Grace produces a desire to share with others, and then we are free and confident to leave the results to God. Election actually guarantees that God's word will not return to Him void. When we realize God's abundant grace it creates a desire to do what He commands us to do. But it does take away the guilt trip. There are those who are always trying to make you feel guilty for not doing enough witnessing. There is an article by J.I. Packer on God's sovereignty and evangelism at the following link www.gospelpedlar.com/evan_sov.htm It isn't very long, but I think it is very good. I wonder if you would care to comment after reading it, to see if it makes sense. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 541 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Just to add to the good points Chris made in his last post, there is a good online article that is entitled "God's part and Man's part in salvation" which expands on Chris's points above about regeneration and faith. This article is also good about showing how there is God's sovereignty as well as human responsibility in salvation, a point Colleen made in an earlier post last night. The link is www.soundofgrace.com/aug97/godspl.htm Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 846 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for the link, Stan. I read the article. The author states:
Ok. It is my understanding that being born again by the Holy Spirit means that the Holy Spirit brings my dead spirit to life eternal. So if I already have eternal life and I'm connected to God forever, then why do I need to exercise faith and be "saved"? If I'm already born again by the Spirit, then what does "saved by faith" mean? And how can faith be called "the act of man" when the Bible says that it is "the gift of God"?? It seems I still have a lot of questions about all of this... Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 542 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I had to go back and re-read the entire article to understand the context of that quote from near the end of the article. I think the illustration of Lydia in Acts 16:14, that he makes, where the "Lord opened her heart" to "respond to Paul's message" makes the author's point. God opened her heart, but the act of faith was to respond to Paul's message. God's action comes first, then man responds with active faith, which is also a gift from God, so that no man can boast. The exercising of faith is the evidence that you have been regenerated. Of course, all who have been "appointed for eternal life" (Acts 13:48), will exercise this response of faith. At the end of your last post Jeremy, you said "I still have a lot of questions about all of this..." That is the right spirit to have. Don't believe something just because an article or book or some great preacher says it. We must test everything by the Bible. Stan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 109 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well, I read all your posts at one time. That was a BIG mistake. My brain hurts. I feel the same way Colleen, that the questions raised by Calvinism seem to be true to God's nature even though we don't have the complete answers to the questions. I have rejected Arminianism because I derive much from that perspective that can easily become heretical. God is clearly sovereign, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Chris, thank you for the explanation on middle knowledge! How do you know all this stuff!?!? You do have a full time job, right? You have a gift, truly! I heard William Lane Craig on Bible Answer Man a couple of days ago and heard that term for the first time. Leigh: You make good points. I am constantly amazed at people who don't find this study enticing and fascinating. It draws me like a magnet. Yet it bores others of my Christian friends to tears. I think this is another of God's ways to draw us to Him in a personal way. He knows what will connect us to Him. And you're right, it certainly has made God rightly seem VERY VERY VERY VERY BIG! Jeremy: I LOVE your questions. I actually was talking outloud to the computer screen, seconding your questions. OK...my next question is this: Is this ALL philosophical? We can derive knowledge from the Bible, but it seems that in the 'understanding' of the knowledge, there has to be some reasoning to come to either conclusion (election vs free will). Patria | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 849 Registered: 10-2004 |
I still don't understand how someone can have eternal life and still not be saved! Acts 13:48 says:
That sounds, to me at least, like they did not HAVE eternal life before they believed. Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 903 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think Luke may be saying that they had been predestined (appointed) for etnernal life so they believed (as a result of the regeneration they received). If I keep going I might convince myself to become a Calvinist........... Chris | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2004  |
What a wonderful discussion. There is so much here to ponder. This is a topic that I keep coming back to again and again. I'm not ready to call myself a Calvinist, but I have certainly come to reject the idea that man's will exceeds God's sovereignty (or that God "allows this to happen"). And I start seeing Biblical passages very differently than I had before. Take for instance the start of the 23rd Psalm.
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| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Everyone, To anyone who remembers me ņ I have not been around for quite a while. How are you all? Jeremy, That Acts 13: 48 verse is in fact even more tricky than that, because of the Greek original. I hope I donít lose you, but the phrase ėthey had been appointedî is a periphrastic pluperfect, which has the same form in both middle and passive voices. Middle is like reflective. Also the verb ėtassÛî has quite a lot of different meanings like, place, station, order, devote, determine, appoint. So it could legitimately be translated as, ėthey had been appointed,î or ėthey dedicated themselves.î In the second case, the verse would read, (literally) ėhearing, therefore, the Gentiles rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all those believed who had dedicated themselves to eternal life.î As a ėnon-Calvinistî I found that quite interesting. Maybe not surprising that this debate has been going on for 500 years? God bless, Adrian |
