| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1512 Registered: 3-2004  |
Shontay, I received my Proclamation today and just about read it all the way through, including the one article by you. God is leading you and He will NEVER drop you or let you go. Keep praying and He will direct you to where He wants you. That is what I did a year ago after I decided not to rejoin the SDA church. I prayed and attended various churches. The week after Mother's day last year God told me where to go. It felt like I had come home when I went into the church and sat down. So keep on praying and reading/studying your Bible. God has a place for you all prepared. He is truly awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 1991 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oops, Mary--you're right! And Shontay, pray and try that church! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 391 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, Sylvia and I received the latest issue of Proclamation magazine recently (the one focusing on the new, improved IJ). We have already loaned it to some SDA friends to read. It is an excellent, very special issue. Thank you for your writing, layout, design, editing, and publishing ministries. Be sure to tell Richard that we greatly appreciate the professional appearance of the magazine. Your talented teamwork results in a finished product that glorifies Jesus Christ. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2000 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Dennis. Praise God--I pray that He will glorify Himself through the work He gives all of us to do. Colleen | ||
| Taybie Registered user Username: Taybie Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hey Collen, I never did receive my copy of Proclamation.  Would it be possible to send my Mom a copy, too? She prayed for 4 years that I would be free in Jesus and is SO excited about not only my freedom, but my article. Thanks you! Shontay | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1522 Registered: 3-2004 |
I received my Proclamation two days ago. Now I remember why I did not remember the IJ when I was in school. It is so convoluted, twisted and I cannot think of another word except a lie. It is completely opposite to what Jesus is about. I know I received good grades in my Bible class. That is except for my first year Bible class at La Sierra where we studied Desire of Ages. For the test the questions were just things I did not understand. I got a "C" in that class. Thank God I do not have to be concerned about the IJ/the new IJ or any other IJ. God does not have to be vindicated. Jesus does not have to prove anything to anyone. He died on the cross and was resurrected that I could have eternal life. I will take hold of Him and never let go. I thank Him for that and He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2007 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Diana! Sontay, I'll send you a couple of copies. I double checked, and your name is on the list; I can't explain why you didn't receive it. If it ever shows up, please let me know. Thanks! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1808 Registered: 11-2002 |
Foreverscout, I will try to explain the term 'scapegoat'. It is handing out the punishment to the one who does not deserve it. I will give several examples and then you will get the understanding of the term. I took a child abuse class at the universtty. we learned in the class that often the abused child in the family is the scapegoat child. For some reason the abusing adult/parent will pick on one child, will beat and abuse the one child when it is very likly that it is the other children in the family that are causing the chaos. It is punishment and being mean to the one who does not deserve the punishment. Or, possibly a person will kick the dog when he is really mad at his wife. Get the picture? Jesus is our scapegoat. We are sinners, we are fallen and lost. The perfect life and the perfect blood of Jesus was shed so we can avoid our just punbishment. The SDA religion teaches that at the end our sins will be placed on poor, underserving stata. Their reasoning is that satans sin was his rebellion in heaven. Our sins are our sins and poor, underserving satan will be eternally annialiated in the lake of fire for our sins. It really is very blasphomus and anti-Christian. It is Jesus and Jesus only who took the punishment for our sins. When I really want to get a SDA person in a tizzy I tell them 'I am saved. I was saved on Good Friday when Jesus was cruisified in 33 A.D.' It gets the SDA's all worked up and they get visibly shaken. Nonetheless, the scapegoat doctrine of the SDA religion is anti-Christian and is blasphomus. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2004 |
My copy arrived today up here in the great white north.As we have a long weekend the timing is perfect for a leisurely perusal.I look forward to the IJ articles as this has been a challenging topic. Talk to you later, and thank-you all who contribute to this publication and ministry. Randy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2004 |
Susan, you really clarified that scapegoat and made it plain! Thank you. I just have one question....there was always a bit of "I wonder if the Adventists have it right on that?" because it seems that Jesus is always referred to as the "Lamb" and never the "goat". Why do you think it is in this case, and is this where the term "scapegoat" started? Just always wondered. Bb | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 455 Registered: 7-2004 |
Absolutely this is where the term "scapegoat" got its start, and every scapegoat I've ever heard about was innocent except for being in the wrong place at the wrong time so that the blame fell on that person. Read Leviticus 16 and you will see that the two animals had to be identical and without blemish because both were meant to represent Christ. The High Priest cast lots over the two animals, and one perfect animal died to pay the blood price that sin required. The other perfect animal bore the sins away, just as Jesus did. It is impossible to use only one animal to represent what Jesus would do for mankind because no lamb (or goat) was ever resurrected to show that sin and death had been defeated. The goat that took the sins away from the camp was representative of the risen Lord in that he carried our sins so far away from us that they cannot been seen again. The goat, chosen for Azazel, was in a sense saying to Satan, "In your face, Satan, these sins and faults have been removed, and my people are thus redeemed." Belva | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 676 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bb, That wouldn't make the Adventists right. On the Day of Atonement, there were two goats that were chosen. One was killed and the other bore away the sins. So, even according to the SDA view, one of the goats represents Jesus--the one that is killed. There were actually no "lambs" involved at all on the Day of Atonement. But of course all of the animal offerings represented Jesus. The scapegoat is even called a sin offering. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 315 Registered: 3-2005 |
I just finished reading the current IJ issue of Proclamation!, and would like to pass on my congratulations to Richard and Colleen for a splendid job. My prayers and support are with you, especially in light of the upcoming GC session in St. Louis. I noticed that Chris Badenhorst did an excellent job describing the traditional beliefs of SDAs, but I was wondering what his opinion was of the scapegoat doctrine, but maybe that was not in the scope of the article. I have also wondered why certain evangelicals who have examined this doctrine, haven't come down harder for this seemingly horrible doctrine. If one really takes EGW seriously, and reads the entire chapter on the I.J. in Great Controversy, one really comes to realize what a terrible doctrine this is. The IJ is a direct contradiction of the very words of Jesus in John 5:24, about the righteous not coming under judgment, as well as Romans 8:1. As Colleen mentioned in her article, it is because of these texts that the theologians, had to remake the IJ in their own image, which makes a mockery of any supposed inspiration of EGW. The IJ as taught by EGW, is a great tool of the Devil to rob us of any joy in following Jesus. And the remake of the IJ is a mockery to the sovereignty and character of God. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2015 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris Badenhorst believes the SDA scapegoat doctrine is a dreadful heresy. Although he did not overtly give his opinion, (his purpose being to completely expose the heretical, complicated nature of the IJ), he exposed it in such a way that the reader would be able to see how blasphemous it is. I have also wondered why more evangelicals haven't come down harder on the whole sanctuary doctrine including the incomplete atonement and the scapegoat theory. I can only suspect that most of them have never read enough Ellen to really understand what this doctrine actually is. When Adventists explain the IJ, they usually do not tell all the details. If they did, who would ever embrace it? Where is the Good News? Just a guess-- Praise Jesus for His finished work! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 677 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, I know that Questions on Doctrine presents the scapegoat heresy differently than EGW does--but it's still not Biblical, and according to what the Bible says about the scapegoat you would have to say that satan is atoning for your sins if he was the scapegoat. Stan, have you seen the "Spirit Behind the Church" video? The "cult expert" guy on there does come down very hard on them about the scapegoat--it's great! He even says something like, Satan bearing our sins is not "the salvation of the Bible." Jeremy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is all making sense now. The fact that the goat is spotless makes it heresy to say it is Satan. Thank you all for clearing this up. It is just like a big cover up for the errors of EGW and "fixing" the Bible to fit her interpretation! Bb | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 327 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, No I haven't seen the movie you are talking about, but I would like to. Do you know who the cult expert is? Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 687 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, Unfortunately, I can't remember his name or his organization. And we don't currently have a copy of the video. It's a fascinating and hard-hitting video. I think Mark Martin (who did the video) sells it the cheapest at www.SDAOutreach.org. And I just looked it up and they now have reduced the price even further--it's now $12.95 for either the DVD or the VHS. Dr. D. James Kennedy recommends it, as does Pastor Chuck Smith. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 688 Registered: 10-2004 |
I saw that www.SDAOutreach.org has been updated with a new "Free Research Library." It looks like it is mainly old tracts, booklets, etc. that are now out-of-print (including some by former SDAs). It is very interesting. I am looking at a booklet entitled, "Forty Bible-Supported Reasons Why You Should Not Be a Seventh-day Adventist" by E.B. Jones, who it says was "formerly a Seventh-day Adventist Foreign Missionary and Publishing House Manager." It has a copyright of 1946. He has comments from a former SDA minister and other former SDAs endorsing his booklet, and also a quote from the SDA church saying, "...We shall have to try to stop the circulation of this book or it will wreck the movement." He calls the SDA church a cult right up front. And one of the former SDA's testimonial states,
What he says about their Scapegoat doctrine, salvation/gospel, and death, etc. is great. Unfortunately, it appears that the one thing he took with him from SDAism was not believing in the Trinity--it appears that he still did not believe that Jesus is eternal or that He is God Almighty. He calls the scapegoat teachings, "the high-water mark of irreverence," a "pernicious heresy," and "shocking blasphemies." Here is the link: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/books/Why%20you%20should%20not%20to%20be%20a%20SDA%20by%20EB%20Jones.pdf Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on May 23, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 331 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jeremy, Stan |
