| Author | Message | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2004  |
Boy did I ever come across as a most ignorant person in my very first college Bible course at a non-SDA college tonight! Am I the only SDA-educated person who has never heard of the Iliad? The teacher talked about it as if everyone knew what it was, comparing its number of manuscripts and reliability with those of the Greek scriptures. Since I had to miss last week's class, I really thought I just missed something from the previous class and so I stupidly asked "What's the Iliad?" The teacher said "Haven't you heard of Homer's Odyssey and Homer's Iliad?" I said that I had not. Then he tells me it's only the most classical piece of literature discussed in every grade school. I asked my husband (Ric_b) about it at home and he said it probably wasn't covered during my SDA education because not only is it fictional but has Greek mythology in it. Wonder how much else I missed out on learning that everyone else out there knows... | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 |
Ah, Raven, that is one of the disadvantahges of SDA education. Go to http://www.iit.edu/~agunsal/truva/schlie.html and read a little about Heinrich Schliemann and his obcession with Homer's Iliad and Helen of Troy or go to google and put in his hame, he is known as the father of modern archeology, although he did some strange things. But it is interesting. It might not help you with your class--and there are good English translations of the Iliad, but you can learn a little about the time and place. I worked in public school for a while and one of the principals made a list of 100 books that any well educated person should read--I think I had read 3 or4 of them!! I kept the list for a long time and did add a few more to my list, but some where along the way I lost it. | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 |
And somewhere along the way I should have learned how to spell obsession. I have to admit that wasn't a typo, but after it was all done it jumped out at me. Where is my spell check when I need it? | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 212 Registered: 1-2003  |
Benevento, they do sort of jump out after the fact don't they.  richard | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2294 Registered: 12-2003  |
Oh, Raven--I'm so sorry! I'm sure your SDA school didn't cover the Iliad. I did hear of it somewhere--I can't remember where,--but I surely didn't study it in depth. I fianlly learned a bit more about the Odyssey when I had to include it in my ninth grade cuurriculum at Arrowhead Christian Academy. I'm so sorry! Colleen | ||
| Catalyst Registered user Username: Catalyst Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 |
Some schools do better with Classics and literature than others. I went to Greater Boston Academy and we studied the Iliad and Odyssey in depth. One can get a bad education everywhere not just in Adventist private schools. The odds are good that if you got an education that you got something else instead of a good literature background - i.e. you got more math or science? A good friend of mine went to schools in the south (non-adventist) and their schools did not have any microscopes - when he went to medical school at Loma Linda imagine his surprise to find out he was in classes with people who had had great science training in Adventist schools - he was at a disadvantage because of the schools he had gone to. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 889 Registered: 7-2003  |
I do think that exposure to classic literature in the average SDA school is limited. It is limited by the counsels Sister White gave against reading fiction and it is limited by the influence of the historic SDAs that provide support to the school systems. When I was at Sunnydale Academy we had a rather liberal (in the Adventist sense of the word) English teacher who had the temerity to introduce us to Shakespeare (thank you Ms. McGuire!). Macbeth was my first exposure to truly great literature. I can still remember the hue and cry of most of the village parents when they found out. The protest reached a crescendo when it was discovered that Macbeth sees the ghost of his father. Never mind that the ghost is a literary device. Never mind that there is more than one way to interpret this ghostly appearance. Never mind that this is a play that uses fictional events to convey important moral truths. Itís spiritualism! Letís burn the books and the teacher with them! I realize you can get a poor education anywhere, but letís face facts folks; the Adventist educational system is predisposed against classic literature by the very nature of its roots and the objective reason for its existence. Chris | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for your observations, Chris. I was thinking the same thing. The only reason my education was less than standard was because of EGW's counsels, not because our school couldn't afford microscopes. Of course Science is eventually a strong subject in SDA schools because EGW highly endorsed the SDA medical work. However, I should mention that when our kids switched to public school two years ago, (starting 4th and 5th grade at that time), they were seriously behind in Science and Math. That's because SDA schools tend to wait until 7th grade and beyond to "work the brain". I was appalled that at least through 4th grade at the SDA school, the teaching plan was that the kids only received 1/2 the year of Science and 1/2 the year of Social Studies. At public school, they get the full school year devoted to both subjects. Not only that, in my one daughter's 4th grade SDA class, the teacher took so long to get through Social Studies, that they didn't start Science until about a month or so before school ended and barely covered anything. I'd hate to see what SDA education is like where resources are limited. The school I'm talking about is a 12 grade school in an affluent SDA mecca--they have no excuse except that of relying on the faulty counsels of EGW. When we had decided to make the switch to public school, an SDA teacher was trying to tell us how much better the SDA school system is compared to the local inner city school. Obviously! And we weren't going there, but to one of the top public schools in our state. I was very proud that this last school year, our oldest daughter, who has always had a brain for math but tested poorly at the SDA school, has improved so much that on the latest proficiency test she only missed 2 math questions, and also received advanced placement scoring on Science (and every other subject). I can't be thankful enough that we made the switch. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 891 Registered: 7-2003 |
Raven, We had the same experience here. We live in an affluent SDA mecca as well with a large SDA educational system Kindergarten through College. My oldest daughter attended the grade school and was literally combing through the paper scrap pile looking for math problems to do and things to read because she was so bored. The teacher told us at a conference that she just needed to slow down and wait for the other kids instead of looking for additional work to do. She said that teachers can't be expected to provide extra work for some children. We took her out and put her in our excellent public school system. They tested her, put her if differential math and reading and for the first time ever I saw her being challenged and engaged. Going to parent teacher conferences is like night and day when compared with the SDA school. I am so impressed with the curriculum she is getting and couldn't be more pleased with the school system. My youngest daughter just finished Kindergarten and her curriculum looked more like what my oldest received in first grade. Most amazingly, they have both already been exposed to great literature! I have to admit I'm just a little bit jealous of their education :-) .....but I'm working hard to catch up....... Chris | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2003 |
There is great article about fiction on the Veritas Press website, a classical Christian education resourse. www.veritaspress.com Click on resources, then articles. The article is entitled "Avoiding Fiction." Here is the first line: "Avoiding fictional stories is one of the most dangerous things Christian parents can do to their children." There is another great article that I have the parents of my 3rd grade history class (Ancient Greece, Rome, and the New Testament) read at the beginning of the year entitled "How to Handle Mythology." http://www.greenleafpress.com/articles/a_myths.htm Here is quote from this article. "Moses clearly knew Egyptian religious stories and Paul clearly knew about Greek and Roman religion. This can be seen in the way each of them deals with the false religions of the culture they are dealing with. Paul even quotes from Greek poetry (a poem which discusses the pantheon of Greek mythological gods). To understand the conflict between Moses and Pharaoh, it is tremendously helpful if you understand the relationship between the plagues and the Egyptian pantheon. It turns out that each of the plagues is God's challenge to a specific Egyptian deity. If you don't know who the Egyptian deities are, you can't really understand what God is saying." Leigh | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 893 Registered: 7-2003 |
Great quotes Leigh! Consider this, before we send missionaries to foreign lands we require them to undergo rigourous education and training about the culture they will be entering. Each of us is a missionary to those around us. How are we going to understand our OWN culture if we know nothing of the literary and mythological underpinnings of our culture. These underpininings pervade our art, our music, our language, and even the field of science just to name a few aspects of our culture. You cannot possibly understand the many subtle references and allusions to literature, art, and mythology that are used in everyday life if you have never studied any of these things. I would also argue that a person is poorly suited to witness to a culture that they know very little about. Too many Christians, not just SDAs, have created their own little sub-culture from which they hardly ever emerge. Chris | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 596 Registered: 1-2003 |
My kids constantly tell me how much more they are challenged at their new non-sda school. The teacher at the SDA school let my son stuff his work in his desk for 6-weeks and then oops! No grades for him at report card time...so I had to go up there and pull it all out of his desk and we finished and turned it in...and the boy got A's and B's. Crazy! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 964 Registered: 7-2003  |
Chris, great points, especially even studying scripture. I've been listening to the Galatians series you posted a while back and your pastor (I presume) was explaining some of the history of the word "tutor". I had always thought of it in today's usage...someone who teaches one on one, type thing. I was very surprised to learn a tutor was more like a taskmaster to keep kids in line than one to help them. Well, that changes my whole view (and confusion) on that passage. My pastor does that too...talks about the culture and symbolism of Biblical days....You're right, it's so hard to talk to people when you don't understand their language and values, etc. Thanks for the link to the Galatians study too! I'm on 6, and it's just been great! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 894 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, that's a truly outstanding series. I've always thought it was providentially timed as well. Pastor Clark taught that series the year my wife and I made the leap and decided to find somewhere to worship other than our SDA church. We picked Berean largely because it had Saturday night services (in addition to three Sunday services) and was big enough that we could slip in and out without being noticed. We were so alone and so scared. Really. I hate to think back on how hard that was. The solid line by line Bible study was salve for the soul. By the time we finished "Summer in the Psalms" we were ready to transition to Sunday mornings so the kids could go to Sunday School. The first Galatians sermon we heard we knew we had to invite our best friends (fellow SDAs we had been studying and praying with) to come too. They joined us and also made the transition with us, due in part I think to this Galatians series. [Is that accurate Brian?] What a blessing it was to have friends on the same journey!!! I know a number of other families who have made the transition out of Adventism through Berean and many have listened to the Galatians series on tape as part of their transition. I've always thought that Pastor Clark knew he was preaching to some SDAs in his audience. Pastor Clark was insturmental in getting our Lincoln based FAF group going. We meet at his church and I stay in periodic contact with him, but I am involved in ministry and leadership at another church. I've really enjoyed the way that Christians are able to work together across denomination lines! For those that would like to download the sermons in streaming audio or MP3 (as well as study guides and transcripts) all for free, you can go here: GALATIANS Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 966 Registered: 7-2003 |
I put the mp3s on my palm and have listened to them driving to/from work ... a most uplifting time in rush hour traffic! It is a bit hard to follow along in the Bible that way, though. (Message edited by melissa on July 14, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2296 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great points! Chris, what a blessing Pastor Clark is! I worried aboutr transferring our sons from Loma Linda to ACA--I feared ACE would be less "intellectual". My fears were totally unfounded. The emphasis on writing and analysis across the disciplines was amazing to me. In my four years at Walla Walla College, I did not write the length or the number of papers my sons had to write to graduate high school at Arrowhead Christian Academy. They also had great math and science instruction. Colleen | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2005 |
Pastor Clark has such a wonderful way of plainly and succinctly explaining the true gospel. That Galatians series was excellent indeed. What it boiled down to for me was this: Once you add anything to the gospel of grace, it ceases to be grace at all. Heretic | ||
| Brian2 Registered user Username: Brian2 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 |
Yes Chris the Galatians series was a large catalyst is our journey. While at Union College I was able to take a world liturature class. We went through quite a few of the classics, the Illiad and the Odyssey and others. I struggled to make it through that class. I think that English was the weak spot in my Adventist education. Then again it is just MY weakness!!! I will agree with Chris in the difference in the public education system here in Lincoln, NE and the Adventist system. My oldest went one year to Adventist elementary (Kindergarten) We then started 1st Grade in the public system. ( I was more scared to send him to "public" school than he was to go.) We started some phonics during the summer to help give him a head start for first grade. Little did we know that we were actually behind. He was so far behind the others in reading. He had to start their "reading recovery program" to catch up. He came home the first day of 1st Gade and said "I can't read and all the other kids can" My heart ached for him. It wasn't that he couldn't do it. He was never exposed to it in Kindergaten. My youngest finished kindergarten (public school) and can read and do a large amount of math. All of this from the "poor quality" Public school system. Oh how sheltered I was raised. I am not saying that Helen Hyatt SDA Elementary is a bad school they just have a different time line. I will never fear non SDA's again. I have meet so many wonderful people that are not SDA since leaving. Oh yeah What about Bible education? Well that starts at home. Do you really want someone else to mold your childs understanding of "truth" and God? I forgot to mention that while in Kindergaten they were sure to teach my son about James and Ellen White but not reading and math!!! They had a picture of Ellen right next to George Washington! Brian p.s sorry for the poor punctuation and spelling errors :-) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2309 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ellen and George, huh? That's actually quite funny; it's so disjunct! It's interesting that you mentioned not fearing non-SDAs again. You're right; we were taught to fear them, even if they were Christians. We had to be especially on guard if one was a Christian because we might be deceived. Sigh. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 112 Registered: 3-2005 |
Brian, The idea of Ellen and George next to each other made me laugh out loud. It seems so ridiculous...of course, I'm exhausted...but it's still funny. I think my Adventist education was ok, on the less than adequate side, until college. I remember studying some of the classics, both at Mile High and at Union, but none of it stuck...a fault of mine, no doubt. I do have to say that I feel my nursing education from Union was very good, maybe even superior to some other programs. However, the motives behind the 'great' educational system are very problematic. The brainwashing was/is deep-seated and difficult to rid myself of...actually, I'm afraid that will be a lifelong process. I will be sending my children to the public schools (in Lincoln). Here in Denver, we wouldn't even consider it. The public schooled children are far behind in reading and math; some 2 grade levels. We have been sending them to a Lutheran school here in Denver, and my children have had an excellent education. They were both reading out of kindergarten...and had teachers that were fabulous. The school does a really good job of teaching Bible, from a grace-oriented perspective. Patria | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2004 |
I can add a hearty here, here to the discussion of no longer fearing non-SDA's. Though we extended good relations to neighbors who proved trustworthy, overall as a child I was taught to be wary (even scared) of anyone not SDA. Sadly, most of the pain caused to our family and myself came from the hands of the "trustable" SDA's. I am learning that there are so many wonderful people in the world that I never would have known if I'd continued to write off every not SDA as "babylon". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2322 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true! It's really unnerving during the process of realizing that one has placed faith in people or systems that were not necessarily trustworthy. Praise God He saves us and wastes nothing in our experience! Colleen |
