| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 883 Registered: 7-2003  |
For those interested in Reformed Theology, I would like to recommend the current "Renewing Your Mind" radio program series by Dr. R.C. Sproul. The programs are archived for 30 days here: Renewing Your Mind The series entitled, "What is Reformed Theology?" began on 6/22/05 (just scroll down in the archives to find it). Of special interest are the programs in this series that focus on the Calvinistic T.U.L.I.P.: Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistable Grace Perseverance of the Saints Dr. Sproul began addressing the TULIP on 6/30/05. I hope you find this series helpful. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 501 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Thanks for posting that info. One of the members of our FAF Bible study has been excited about this presentation. R.C. Sproul is one of the best in articulating these doctrines of grace. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 503 Registered: 3-2005 |
On the website Chris posted above is a link to information about a new reformation study Bible using the relatively new ESV version and edited by R.C. Sproul. I have just purchased this and I am excited about it. I find the ESV text very readable, and it has a reputation for accuracy after the order of the NASB, but being very readable. The study notes by R.C. Sproul and many other Reformed scholars are very helpful. The exact link is www.ligonier.org/news/index.php?id=7. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 109 Registered: 3-2005 |
Speaking of Bible translations, have you heard of bible.org and the NET Bible. I was wondering if any of you have an opinion on it. I find the notes to be very interesting as I am studying. I think it is well translated, but only because I have read their philosophy of translation and that it seems to have been done openly with lots of feedback from Christian scholars. I also compare it to the NASB and the NIV when studying it. But, not having a Theology background, or knowing Hebrew and Greek, I would like other opinions. Thanks! -tisha | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 396 Registered: 5-2002 |
Amen Chris! RYM is my personal favorite systematic theology radio program. Dr. Sproul's book "Knowing Scripture" is most excellent! | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2005 |
Another great book by R.C. Sproul is "Chosen By God". This book had a significant influence on me coming to the Reformed faith. Stan | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tisha, I own the N.E.T Bible. N.E.T being, New English Translation. I really like it and it is a fine tool for study. And you are right, there were over twenty five professors and bible scholars that had their hands on it before it was releast. I actually have the first one off the press and it had a misprint. They replaced the bible and I kept the original, probably a collectors item, but anyway, it is a great study bible and easy to understand.It has 57,875 translators notes, so it keeps you knowing that it is for real. Any one can down load the entire bible for free at www.netbible.com. I'm glad that bought up this info. God Bless Patrick | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 509 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is another great website for the study of the great Reformed doctrines of grace, www.monergism.com There is so much rich material from historical Christian faith. The quote from the classic Puritan author John Owen at the top of the page is enough reason to at least click on to this link. Stan | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Patrickfoy & Chris: I have been translating from English to Spanish for 9+ years. And I come across the many stumbling blocks to translating bible copy that is accessible to all. I had also been aware for some time that Luke 22:43-44 was not in some earlier Greek versions of this gospel. This is the NET translation: [22:43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 22:44 And in his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.] And some of the NET Translator Notes... "...Nevertheless, because of the serious doubts as to these versesí authenticity, they have been put in brackets. " All in all, an honest appraisal of the situation. Again, thank you all, Pradez p.s. Translation is also why the non-English-speaking SDA world will always have a hard time believing the EGW plagiarism charge. The emotional connection of memorized EGW words is in their natives tongues. So, it's next to impossible to demonstrate to them the proofs of EGW plagiarism. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2269 Registered: 12-2003  |
Pradez, that is a fascinating observation. In light of the GC's launch of the new program called "Connecting with Jesus" which in reality is the plan to translate 10 EGW books into the native languages of the growing millions of Adventists around the world, and of placing sets of these 10 books into the the families of 2,000,000 new Adventists by the year 2010, this emotional connection you describe is even more sinister. Of course--plagiarism will be next to meaningless to them because they will have no access to the original documents EGW "borrowed" from, and the arugments are largely conducted in English and based on English linguistic studies. I had not thought of this complication before. Greg Taylor says that in Uganda, there are 3,000,000 people who register in the national census as Adventists. The local conference, however, has only 150,000 members on the rolls in Uganda. The reason for the large number is that the people have been exposed to Adventist evangelism, and even though most of the people (whose native relgion is animism) will not join the SDA church, they are "Adventist-ized", and they will not respond to other missionaries or churches because they believe that IF they were to join a church, the Adventist church would be the right one. He also says the Adventism there is very dark and oppressive. Those who are leaving the Adventist church in Uganda say that they did not know Jesus when they were in the church. Add to this phenomenon the reality that Pradez mentions, that once people hear, read, and memorize EGW in their native tongues, they are insulated against linguistic arguments of plagiarism based on English scholarship, the problem is compounded. I can see why the GC is concerned about the great hemorrhage of members from the NAD, but the third world is their "great hope". This situation brings to my mind Paul's words to Timothy in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 where he tells him that we are to pray for our rulers and authorities that we might live peaceful and quiet lives. This pleases God, Paul said, because God wants all men to come to repentance. Even though the millions of people who are vulnerable to Adventist proseletyzing are not our ruulers and authorities, our intercessory prayers really are an active part of how God works among men. We reeally do need to pray that the truth about Adventism will be revealed and that all men and women everywhere will be willing to respond to the Holy Spirit and come to repentance. Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 957 Registered: 7-2003  |
I know the increase in 3rd world numbers will look good on paper, but those people are impoverished for the most part. Will it really help the religion in financial terms, which on some level also seems important? How will they fund these causes if the mainline folks at home are less financially inclined, since I would presume all funding would have to come from outside? Since you mentioned Uganda, do we know if those ministers who had left remained out or have they returned? I know LAM quit supporting them, but wasn't sure the status of those ministries. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 511 Registered: 3-2005 |
In the same vein of revealing the truth about Adventism as Colleen mentions in her last post above, and also related to Chris's original thread posting about Reformed theology and the T.U.L.I.P., it is important to examine the roots of Adventism, and why it evolved as it did. Adventism's roots go back to John Wesley, and his Arminian theology. In fact, Adventism is really the logical conclusion of where Arminian theology may eventually lead. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is really just an extension of where Wesley's holiness and perfectionism doctrines will lead if taken to their logical conclusions. There is a short summary of how Arminianism and Calvinism are opposing systems of thought listed here at www.gracefellowshipmh.org/library/CAL-ARM-OPPOSED.pdf. You can substitute Adventism for the word Arminianism, since Adventism is extreme Arminianism. This does not mean that Arminians are not Christians (my wife and I attend an Arminian leaning Calvary Chapel). Roman Catholicism is also Arminian in its theology. You can read a lot of writings from John Wesley and other Arminian writers that totally blur the lines between Justification and Sanctification just like the Roman and Adventist churches do. Luther said "the Christian church stands or falls on the doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone. If this is true, and since this doctrine is really the heart of the gospel, then is it possible that taking Arminianism to its logical conclusion denies the gospel? There is an excellent and very scholarly work that is online at www.the-highway.com/Arminianism_Exposed2.html which traces the roots of Wesleyan theology with regard to the Perfectionism and emphasis on Holiness that most of us saw growing up in Adventism. This article is for the theologically inclined, and for those interested in tracing back to where Adventism came from. This article also talks about other errors that Arminian theology leads to, and this article specifically addresses the heresy of the "Open Theism" view of Richard Rice, who teaches a Sabbath School class at LLU church. The legalism which most of us grew up in in Adventism is alive and well in American fundamentalism and most of these type of churches are rooted in Wesleyan Arminianism. Finally, I would like to say that even though our salvation does not in any way depend on our differing views on the non-essentials of faith, or whether one attends a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Adventist church, it does seem to matter in the joy and freedom we have in serving Christ. If our theology is God centered (the Reformed Westminster confession's first tenet is "that man exists to glorify God and enjoy Him forever"), and we know that God has left nothing to chance with regard to our salvation, and as Ephesians 1 says "we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world", it makes me stand in awe that God would choose someone like me to be His child. When I contemplate the reality that God is indeed Sovereign over all of the events that happen to me, then it makes it a little easier to go through trials. The doctrine of Sovereignty became very real to my wife and I, when she suffered her stroke last October. We now see why God did a lot of things the way He did in our lives. These doctrines of grace called T.U.L.I.P. are not dead doctrines of orthodoxy, they are living doctrines that can truly give us "Blessed Assurance" as that great hymn states. So I heartily recommend the radio series that Chris mentioned at the beginning of this thread "Renewing Your Mind" Not only will Sproul's teachings renew the mind, but they will also renew the heart. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 512 Registered: 3-2005 |
That first link above doesn't work, so let's try it again www.gracefellowshipmh.org/library/CAL_ARM_OPPOSED.pdf Stan | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1876 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stan, I don't understand how you consider Catholic to be armeanian. I attend Catholic services quite frequently and believe me it is the Trinity all the way. Please explain. Thanks. | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2003 |
Colleen, thanks for your comments. As for the native language, EGW problem, I find that young people, such as myself, who are exposed to English, are better able to see the huge cognitive dissonance that SDA living creates. However, besides the language issue, Latin American and other 3rd World countries create Cultural Constructs that revolve around particular SDA perspectives, such as historical adventism, conservative adventism, vegetarian adventism, etc. It's as though these SDA congregations were mirror images of U.S. SDA living, "frozen" in time--40, 50, 60 years. An example: my wife went to see her mom 4 years ago to Puerto Rico. She's a very devoted, conservative adventist. Due to an oversight, she didn't have a dress whose skirt covered her knees. And though my wife is an adult, my mother-in-law "forbid" my wife from attending sabbath worship service, because she herself was embarrassed. Now that my wife uses earrings-- a huge, huge issue in Latin America-- she does not wear them in around her mom. Nevertheless, just last week, my wife inadvertedly showed her mother a picture of herself with some friends and she had earrings on. Since many, many young people are no longer attending SDA worship, and there have been a few high profile apostasies--especially toward messianic judaism, of all things-- my mother-in-law (MIL)took it in stride. My MIL comes from the lineage of the first SDA convert on the island, a fact she is proud of, though her own mother married more than 5 times! The truth is starting to come out in so many corners, whether explicitly via EGW's plagiarism, or through bad example by leaders of the church, that SDA growth in Puerto Rico is dangerously teethering towards the negative range... 2nd example: in the Caribbean we are told that if you migrate to the U.S. you will adopt its social mores and become lost. Now I know why. The contrast between how SDA folks lead their lives outside the Mainland versus the SDA people in 3rd world countries is so huge that it shatters and trancends whatever cognitive dissonance we as outsiders can muster--its hipocracy so great, that smacks you in the face, so to speak. 3rd example: Argentinean SDA college system is considered to be the strongest in all Latin America--at least, so they think. However, the overwhelming majority of Argentinean SDA pastors are not vegetarian. Why? Argentina has a strong, cultural tradition with beef cosumption due to their cattle industry. I have an uncle who is a pastor, and who started eating meat again because his Argentinean bosses and colleagues would hold private "barbecue" gatherings (parrilladas) where they would wolf down meat like everyone else--away from common church folks. Naturally, after years of not eating meat, he had the runs. And finally: my mother worked many years for the local conference. She was well known because my grandfather was one of the pillars of the church, leading the neighboring island conference and preacher on Puerto Rico. My mom confessed to me that she was forced to leave her good job with the SDA, partly due to the hipocracy of its leaders, and mostly due to been hit on by pastors, who were church leaders in their own right. She wanted to avoid an embarrasement. And she was not the only female worker this happened to!!! So, when young, SDA people see these things, then come to the US and get to see more disjointedness between what's being preached and taught, vs. the false doctrines of EGW vs. how SDA leaders and most members ACTUALLY live their lives, it's no wonder most choose to simply fade away... And like these anecdotes, I have many... But I rather tell you in the natural course of this and other chats. Pradez | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1705 Registered: 3-2004  |
Pradez, I am not surprised at what is happening in adventism, any where. More important than what is happening in the SDA church is that each of us has been taken out of it and we are in Jesus awesome arms and He will not let us go. Thank you God, for Jesus and bringing each of us to you through Him. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 514 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, I think you might mean by your question, that I was saying that Catholics are Arian, thereby denying the Trinity. The word Arminian means something very different. You say you attend a Catholic church. But I know also you attend an ELCA Lutheran church. For Martin Luther the great issue of the Reformation was the doctrine of Justification by Faith alone. That is the heart of the glorious gospel which we as former Adventists rejoice, especially since we have been freed from a system of bondage and legalism. The Catholic and SDA church both in effect deny the doctrine of Justification by Faith alone, which in effect denies the heart of the gospel. Catholics have their pope, and SDAs have Pope Ellen, both speaking extra-biblically. Both systems have works- righteousness. The SDAs say that they are the only true church and Rome says the same thing. SDAs in essence worship the Sabbath. The late Pope worshipped Mary as a co-redemptrix. Both Catholicism and Adventism are false theological systems. There are many true Christians in both churches by God's grace alone, and God saves people even in false churches. But the safest course is to stay as far away as you can from Catholicism. Stan | ||
| Pradez2 Registered user Username: Pradez2 Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2003 |
Flyinglady, That's what I like about this site: keeping the eye on the real prize. It's taking me awhile, but day by day, I see Jesus is the only thing that matters. Thanks for setting me straight. Pradez | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2005 |
Susan, The crucial point of controversy at the time of Luther with the Catholic Church was not that they did not believe we are saved by grace. They did and they still do. HOWEVER, they leave out the crucial word ALONE. The true Gospel is one that offers salvation sola fide (faith alone), sola scriptura (Scripture only) sola gracia (grace ALONE) and we add through/by Christ ALONE. Catholics say God gives His grace and THEN it is up to the believer to USE God's grace to live a righteous life; overcome in in the life, etc. So it is God's grace PLUS the merits we earn by using God's grace. Hence the door is open for legalism, which jumps right in causing such a splash, it has entered virtually all Christianity to greater and lesser degrees. Belief can become an aspect of legalism when you believe that this is YOUR part and your salvation hangs on whether or not you believe. NOT. It's God's grace from beginning to end. There would be nothing to belive in or accept should not God have chosen us to offer us the "Apple" of salvation, to use Spurgeon's analogy. Hope that helps. Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2276 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pradez, what interesting observations. They are especially interesting to ponder right now in the wake of having watched parts of the GC session and also after talking with Greg Taylor, recently returned from Uganda. Dale Ratzlaff made a point in one of his works--I think it was the article in the last Proclamation--that in Acts 15 when the early church set the standards for Gentile Christians and specifically excluded the Jewish law, they were establishing that Christianity was something that could transcend cultures without making people abandon their own. This fact really shines the light on Adventism which does establish its own culture--in fact, the cultural distinctives become the most powerful part of the religion and the part of it that makes the biggest change in people's lives. Instead of being born again, people new to Adventism often become Adventist-ized. Jesus is the reason Christianity can transcend cultures and believers everywhere can have unity and worship with each other without difficulty. Adventism, being marked primarily by its standards and expectations, creates people who adopt local flavors of the church and, without a grounding in Jesus and a new birth, they cannot worship well with others who have a different brand of Adventism. What intresting dynamics this sub-culture creates! And Praise God that Jesus calls us to Himself and makes us one in Him--not in a denomination! He is everything. Colleen |
