| Author | Message | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi all, Wow, I came to this site with questions re Sabbath and I am discovering so many other questions re SDA doctrines. Been reading and praying alot, and learning alot. Two lingering questions. Am I understanding that some are questioning the Tithing issue? Is it necessary still? I love giving to Christian causes, but hate giving to support large denominational overhead. Also on the tongues issues. The most dedicated Christians I know, well at least most of them, are charismatic. They attend churches that are "spirit filled", with speaking in tongues and laying on of hands after the service. I admit this creeps me out. I dont know if its the adventist mentality or what. I have experienced strong evidence of the Holy Spirit, and felt His presence, and seen His manifistations in my life. In fact in the last two days, I have been given great love and compassion toward someone that I have stuggled to love and accept in the past. And I wasnt even "trying" to love that person.  Holy Spirit just filled me up with that love and it is awesome. Anyway, Im going on the great church hunt this weekend...Got 5 churches to visit, 6 if I include a Charismatic Church. Just hoping for some input on these issues, and any experiences regarding church seeking. Of course I am praying, and plan to visit Carol's church too. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 477 Registered: 6-2004 |
Tithing is not a New Testament command. Paul wrote that each one should decide to give in according to his/her income. That means it's up to you on how much you choose to give. There's no strict 10% requirements in giving although many churches (even non-SDA churches) encourage it. My church does and it is one topic I find to be unbiblical. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 958 Registered: 7-2003  |
I have a baptist background, and I remember when I felt lead to attend an Assembly of God church...it is certainly a different worship style, but one I found quite refreshing after I got used to it. People had a freedom I didn't know in their praise and worship. It seemed we barely smiled when we sang and these people were raising their hands in obvious worship, and it taught me a lot about putting myself in perspective before God. It's not about the appearances and what other people think, it is all about my heart and attitude towards God. Though I now attend a church that would not be called charasmatic (though people do raise hands), I have great respect for Christians in charasmatic churches. But like anywhere, the name over the door doesn't always guarantee what's inside. If the teaching is Bible-centered, Christ focused, gospelly pure, and you sense the spirit at work in the body and you are lead to join it, I would follow. It was a real step out of my comfort zone to attend such a "noisy" church, but I came to love the genuine expression of love for God that was present in other churches, I'm sure, just not as outwardly evident. It broadened my own worship and helped me get away from what others thought I "ought" to look like worshipping to where I just focused upon God, regardless of others. For me, that was a big step. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2003 |
The church we joined after leaving Adventism is a spirit filled non denominational church and some of the members, but not all speak in tongues. I haven't heard the pastor speak in tongues, but I have had several people as they were praying for me and laying hands on me speak in tongues. The first time someone prayed over me and spoke in tongues, it took me off guard. You know all the stuff Adventists say about it. During the prayer I felt a trememdous peace fill me. We had been to our church's Christmas programs and VBS before we even thought of leaving Adventism. Before we started attending on Sundays, I went on line and checked the church's website, and looked at their statement of faith and different ministries that they had. We were just transitioning out of Adventism and still held to some of adventism's teachings, so some of the doctrines (i.e. state of the dead) we just decided wasn't the most important doctrine to worry about right then. This church that we are now members of had ministries of which i was excited about taking part. Listening to the pastor and noting that he preached the Gospel from the Bible and noting what authors he quoted from frequently (Spurgeon and John Piper seem to be his favorites) helped to see what message the church wanted to send. We love the praise and worship and our children love the Sunday school classes. In fact my 12 year old mentioned that they actually studied the Bible and the teachers weren't just trying to entertain them. She liked that. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1875 Registered: 11-2002 |
It is interesting to me that you bring up the topic on Speeking in the Spirit. I personally have never done this. However, I attend a weekly prayer and praise group at the local Catholic church. these are charasmatic Catholics. You can do a search on Fr.Ray Roh and learn about this movement. For the first time several weeks ago at the service I wittnessed an elderly gentleman Speeking in the Spirit with prophecy. Then several in attendedce interperted what he had said. I did not speek up but I was in my heart and soul interperting it just the same as the few who spoke up. It was really something to behold. Then last week Fr. Roh held a healing mass at the church. I first took Communion, which in itself is very powerful. Then after Communion we each went forward for the annointing of the holy oil. The sister held the cruisifix on our left shoulder for added power of the Spirit while Fr. gave the annointing of the cross on our forheads. When this id done someone from the congreation always stands behind the person being annointed because frequently it is so powerful the recipient surcumbs and gois to her or his knees at the alter. I almost did and I resisted, which I understand is very common the first time. Several others though did surcoumb to the kneeling position at the alter. I love how the Spitit moves in a Catholic setting. Penticostal type of churches and some sorts of Prostatent churches creep me out. All of you in the Southeran California area can attend Fr. Roh's services. He pastors down in that area somewhere. It's awsome! | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 339 Registered: 2-2002  |
Hey Javagirl! If you come to Wesleyan, remember we meet at 10:00 during the summer. Dress is super casual. I usually wear jeans. Worship really rocks, so hope that's OK. I'll keep an eye out for you in case you come.....we usually sit about a 1/4 or 1/3 way to the front on the right side. Love and miss you all....have been without internet for a couple of days due to storms Wednesday night....sure do realize how much you all mean to me when that happens. Glad to hear from Sabra again. E-mail me girl. Hoping to meet Jeanette this weekend. She plans to be in town visiting family. Call me Jeanette (if you read this.) You could join us for church Sunday a.m. if you want. Love and prayers, Carol | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1703 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I was looking for a church and visiting various churches, God told me to go to the church I now attend. He put the thought in my mind to go there, so I did. I entered the sanctuary, sat down and felt right at home. They have all kinds of programs that I like. I noticed recently that when it come to offerings the pastor does not say tithes any more. When I was taking their DiscoveryE class the last lesson was about money and tithing. Being fresh out of adventism, I researched tithing and during the class told the instructor what I had found. That was a year ago. In the last month I have noticed that tithe is not mentioned when the offering is collected. It is a church with fantastic, even loud music, but you know the singers love the Lord by the look on their faces when they are singing. The preaching is all Biblical. God know what I needed and provided it for me. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 105 Registered: 3-2005 |
Javagirl: I will be praying that you will find a church home that is grounded in the Word of God. I'm on the hunt myself. Our used-to-be SDA pastor, preached a sermon on tithing and told us we would be under the curse mentioned in Malachi (I think 3:21) if we didn't tithe as the SDA's asked. We actually invited he and his wife over to discuss it. It was a dead end. He told us, unequivocally, that we had to tithe to the conference because that's the way the 'system' is set up. Though, I think that his position is extreme, there are many within Adventism who teach this way. Unfortunately, I was disheartened to discover that 'tithing' is sometimes taught as a mandate, even in evangelical churches. My understand is that Paul speaks of 'giving' and not 'tithing' in the New Testament. I have noticed at least two things about this: 1. God speaks to my heart about the things He wants me to give money to. 2. The amount of money that I feel impressed to give usually has nothing to do with a percentage. I personally feel that saying 10% is 'proper' tithing is not only legalistic, but it can limit what a person will give. (At least it did in my case). One other thing to note is that 10% tithing is a very simplistic and truly not correct way of interpreting the Old Testament tithing system. There were several tithes, a complicated system, that unfortunately I cannot spell out for you (I know there are some here that can), but my point is this: I think God wants us to realize that EVERYTHING we have is His. He will give and He will take away as He sees fit. Patria p.s. I apologize, this seems choppy, but I can't make my muddled brain do any better! | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 340 Registered: 2-2002 |
Diana...my church also never mentions tithing (at least since I've been there.) They have rarely collected an offering during the service, but have boxes for offerings at the rear of the room for those that want to give. I love that. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 195 Registered: 1-2003  |
Carol, you mean your don't get to "wallow" in guilt when the offering basket is passed and you don't put anything in it. How boring ! ! ! <smile> Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 700 Registered: 7-2000 |
Javagirl, I, and many other christians believe that tithing should be part of the Christian. You'll come to your own conclusions eventually. Just don't fall into a dogmatic mindset one way or the other. There is much you have yet to learn....the side issues should stay side issues when you are looking for a church body. The key is to make sure they teach the core of Christianity, those things that we all agree on. Tongues is still for the church today. I do speak in tongues in private prayer. Could only name a handful of people in my church who speak in tongues. It isn't an issue with us...just seen as one of the many gifts of the Spirit. Have you ever been in prayer for someone for whom you were deeply concerned or praying about something that had you deeply worried? Ever had the experience of running out of words to pray, then you were silent, and yet it was like you were still praying....like your heart was still speaking to God somehow? Or run out of words when you were worshipping God, thanking Him for who He is and what He has done, and seemed to run out of words, yet your heart still seemed so full, like it would burst? Tongues is kind of like what was going on in your heart/your spirit then being given sound. Think of it this way: my mom had a stroke a year and a half ago. For several days she clearly couldn't understand a word we were saying to her. In what I have been able to gather from what she has communicated to me since then, her thoughts were also scrambled so she couldn't even "think straight" and couldn't even pray. My mom is a Christian, in love with her Lord. Doesn't it make sense that the Lord would have some way that she could still communicate with Him? Even during that time? Of course that part is her spirit. The spirit goes way beyond our intellect, way beyond "language" as we commonly think about it. The spirit can communicate all the intents, emotions, and meanings that our words can only begin to represent. Our words in speaking to God are still important, absolutely! Speaking in tongues never replaces praying with our native language. It's just a different part of our communication with God. When we pray in tongues, no man understands. It is not a recognizable earthly language....tho that can and does happen as well. Is their an immitation of the gift of tongues or a fake? absolutely! Should that put us off from ever being involved in it? No more than the fact that there are those who are fake or immitation "christians" should put us off from pursuing our own relationship with God. Satan is willing to offer a fake of everything real and valuable the Lord offers. So how can we know? When it is God, you know. IF you are in relationship with Him, you have spent time with Him and know His voice, you recognize Him. He has promised us that if we ask for His Holy Spirit, He gives His Holy Spirit, not a fake. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1704 Registered: 3-2004 |
Carol, Unfortunately, in my church, they still pass a basket for the offerings and until about a month ago asked for tithes and offerings. Because that is where God wants me at this time and tithing is not a salvation issue, I stayed there. Was I surprised that in the last month, tithing has not been mentioned when it comes to the offering. I am so happy about that. In September, when our pastor returns from vacation, I am making an appointment and giving him a bunch of books about SDAs, I will also ask him about putting a collection basket at the back of the church so we can drop in our offerings. I give whatever God impresses me to give. God is so good in the way He has led each of us. I am awed by Him every time one of you tells how God has worked with you. God, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for the very personal stories and experiences. THey are helpful. Were gonna visit a church tomorrow, my son has even agreed, although he still wants to attend the SDA church. And we will some for now, while we are searching for direction from God. Charismatic Catholics?? oh my, I really am sheltered. I had no idea. Alot to know out there! This discussion has helped to clarify my issues with tithing. I tend to give as moved anyway, and am not concerned about the percent to give. My concern is that I do not want to give 10% to go to heavy conference administration. And I wasnt clear if tithe was supposed to go to a denomination. That is what I was taught. I have seen the poverty that adventist pastors and their families have gone thru. I think that pastors need to be taken care of, and want a church where the pastor has a livable salary, and is cared for by the members. I dont want to send alot of money "up the ladder" to a larger administration, who then ignores the needs of the local churches. This issue is paramount to me, in choosing a church home. Interestingly, after 6 years of faithful giving to a building fund, we decided last year not to renew the commitment. We just felt impressed to send the money elsewhere, and we did. Very interesting to look at all this in retrospect. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 426 Registered: 4-2000  |
There never was a MONETARY tithe for the Hebrew people. Salaries were exempt from the various tithing laws. It often comes as a great surprise to many Christians that many Israelites never returned a tithe (tenth) on their income. For example, farm hands did not tithe. Tithe was mandated only on crops and animals. The following are some of the occupations that were exempt from tithing codes: mining, lumber, military, handicraft workers, retailers, manufacturing, masonry, carpentry, medical workers, librarians, teachers, law enforcement, etc. Making so-called "principles" out of the Old Covenant tithing codes is both unbiblical and unauthorized. Indeed, Adventists do not corner the market on legalism. There are many other groups that promote Old Testament directives. Furthermore, it is impossible to be a tither without the Levitical system in place. To their credit, our Jewish friends are wise enough to know this fact and use alternate methods of stewardship. Jesus never extracted tithes from his followers to support his earthly ministry. It would have been illegal for him and his followers to do so. Jesus was not a Levite; his lineage was from the tribe of Judah. Instead, those who financially-supported Jesus were people who truly believed in his divine mission and purpose. We would do well to emulate this model for giving in our church age. Additionally, the ancient tithing codes do not allow for equal sacrifice in our culture. Truly, a tither with an income of $10,000.00 per year would be far less able to supply the basic needs of his family than a tither earning $100,000.00 per year. If the Old Covenant was flawless than the New Covenant would not have replaced it. Spirit-led giving, instead of law-based giving, is the model to follow for Christ-followers today. Dennis J. Fischer E-mail: dennisfischer@alltel.net | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 959 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, Dennis for your wisdom on this topic. I learned a lot from the article you've written and it seems each time it comes up I learn more. Personally, I tend to think that pastors that hang on to tithing are afraid that if they didn't their offerings might go down! I think it's a fear to trust God to lead his people on at least a subconscious level. But I know one lady who told me they never mention tithing at their church because their people are so generous they are also afraid the offerings would go down. Through thick and thin, I've learned to follow God in the amount, and never worried about the percentage. God has blessed me to cover all my needs, but I am in no way saying that is "because" I give. Elsewise, I have to wonder what I did to "deserve" my retarded daught...and I'd rather not spend much time in that closet. Learning to grasp grace, pure grace, and the rain on the good and the bad is enough for today. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 197 Registered: 1-2003 |
Javagirl, I had to smile when I saw your post. If finding out about Charismatic Catholics makes you feel sheltered, you should know there are Charismatic SDAs. God works in mysterious ways and refuses to stay in the box we sometimes expect to find Him in. As I worship and pray with others outside the SDA fellowship I find God is awesome as He uses many in different fellowships/churches to do His work. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1707 Registered: 3-2004 |
I spoke to soon. I guess it depends on the minister who will have us shake each others hands and talk about the offering. I was disappointed tonight as another minister did that job and he said "tithes and offerings". Well, God took me to that church for a reason and has shown me how to ignore the word "tithe" and hear the word offering. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1878 Registered: 11-2002 |
Charisamatic SDA? Now I must be the sheltered out of touch one. I never heard of such a thing. I'll pass on checking it out. As I said, most Prostatent churches give me the creeps. I prefer Catholic, Orothodox, Lutheran, Episipalian and possibly Prespertarian. I do occassionally attend The Society of Friends (AKA: Quakers). In my area they hold what is referred to as an unprogrammed service which means it is one hour of silent group meditation. Just my cup of tea, quiet and with no surprises. At the same time I want you all who go to those noisy churches that I'm cool with that, I believe the Lord leads us each to where the service best meets our spiritual/emotional needs in harmony with our personalities. I think because my home and my life is so loud and in such chaos I just crave a very silent, meditative worship. Javagirl, are you in Southeran Ca? If so, chech out Fr. Ray Roh. You might like the service. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 201 Registered: 1-2003 |
Susan I can understand your inclination toward the quiet form of worship. While the church I attend uses contemporary worship music it varies from very celebratory and "loud" to very reflective and quiet. Sometimes in the midst of the music I just quietly kneel and pray. I also have attended a Quakers meeting numerous times and was very blessed and felt God was able to touch us as we worshiped in that way as well. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 106 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis: Thank you for explaining a little more about the Levitical tithing system. Patria |
