| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2218 Registered: 12-2003  |
Well, Richard and I watched the opening meeting of GC on the internet. You can find it at www.hopetv.org. You can go to the hopetv website and get a broadcast schedule for your area. Randy Roberts from LLU Church had the opening meeting. He preached on the First Angel's Message--but he said he believed the most important part of the message has been overlooked. He asked people to put aside the words "the hour of His judgment has come" for a few minutes and concentrate on the angel's call to fear God, give glory to Him,and worship Him. It was a well-crafted and even passionate sermon. What kept pushing into my consciousness as the sermon progressed, however, was that there was no real explanation of HOW one is to begin to worship well. What was missing was any talk of knowing Jesus. My experience suggests that worship becomes quite a natural ougrowth of the miracle of knowing Jesus. Actually, Randy preaches more gospel-oriented sermons at LLU, sometimes, than this one was. (Richard wondered if he had to have his sermon approved by some committee before he delivered it.) He made the point that the God we worship determines our behavior, and he ended with a statement (can't remember the exact words) that essentially said people will know the God we worship by the way we behave. There was an interview following and preceding the sermon. Mark Finley interviewed Clifford Goldstein and another man whose name escaped me (he might have been from a European country, but I'm not sure). The discussion included the purpose of the GC meetings, and details of the current SDA church. They did state that the church now has 16,000,000 members, 5,000,000 more than at the time of the last GC in 2000. Clifford Goldstein said that Adventists around the world, representing 200 different countries are united by four things. These four were the Second Coming, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, and the "present truth" God has given the church. He didn't define "present truth", but I suspect that was politically correct language for "the prophetic gift of EGW." Goldstein actually said Adventists are united by doctrine. I am struck by the lack of mention of the gospel and of Jesus, and I'm also so aware that the prevailing attitude really sees Adventism as The Church. The Biblical church composed of those who are born again by the Holy Spirit and united by Him is not on the radar screen. Interesting. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 802 Registered: 10-2004  |
Thanks for the recap, Colleen. So Goldstein, the "IJ apologist" doesn't even include the IJ (unless that is also included in the ambiguous "present truth"?)? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 29, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2219 Registered: 12-2003 |
Right--I'm suspecting that it's part of the ambiguity! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 89 Registered: 3-2005 |
Present truth. That was the name of the first paper written by James and Ellen wasn't it? It's curious that the term is being revived. I say this with a conversation I had today in mind. A friend of mine said she went to Mark Finley's revelation seminar here in Denver last year and was beside herself when the climax of the meeting she was at, was naming Ellen White. They actually brought up the 'fact' that she 'prophecied' the San Francisco earthquake! I am thinking there's a mighty big push to 'bring her back to life' so to speak. Well, I'm praying. Patria | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Colleen for the "glimpse" of the goings-on. For some reason, I have a need to know what is being said. Maybe for the knowledge of knowing how I can "reach" my parents...? I don't know...I thank you in advance for sharing any other further happenings! When my parents were here for campmeeting a few weeks ago, I pointed out to them that the brochure for the weekend did not mention God once, did not have a Bible text (mom was quick to mention there was a EGW quote) and it was all about the weekend in store of patting themselves on the back for 125 year aniversary of the Upper Columbia Conference...I asked my parents why a spiritual revival weekend would not have any message about God and His love? It seemed to me it was all about man...when there was just silence, I said, "Dad, want another bowl of soup?"  I pray I say these things in love and that by just pointing out a few of these "missing pieces", I will cause them to at least start noticing...Who knows if it does anything more than annoy...Praise God...He knows ALL!! | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2005 |
Just found out my parents are heading for GC today. I didnt say anything at all, couldnt, wouldnt, or wasnt led to say anything, I dont know. But I plan to follow it all, I certainly never have before. Im not "out" yet with my questioning regarding these issues, but interestingly the couple of people I have mentioned my vistis to this type site, have warned me that I need to be careful cuz I do not know who who is "Behind" this all. I did get an e-mail response from my atlanta area request for contacts, and and somewhat scared to follow up, dont feel ready to be "out there". Intellectually, and even spiritually, i know that is ridiculous, but Im sure some of you know the feeling. I feel so protective of my son, and my aging parents as well. Dont want to traumatize them until Im sure God is speaking to me about all this. I'm so glad that I have turned down all requests in the last two years for church/school board and leadership positions. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2003 |
Colleen, Thanks for the update. I have friends and family attending the session and I'm interested in what is being said. I think I would proably go a little crazy watching it. "The Second Coming, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, and the 'present truth'" Where is Jesus? Where is the Cross? Where is the Gospel? Dd, I agree about pointing out the missing pieces. I pray that the Holy Spirit will point out to those present in St. Louis or to those watching at home, Who is missing ! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2003 |
Javagirl, It was interesting that you mentioned you were glad you had turned down requests for church leadership positions. Several months before the Lord called us out, I was asked to be the sabbath school leader in one of the children's divisions. The person calling asked me to pray about it, but the Lord had given me the answer. There was no guilt or searching, just "No" That's the first time that had happened. About 6 months later we left. I didn't know we were going to leave at the time. I'm out with my former church and family now, but still anonymous on this site. Leigh is my pen name. I'm not ready for that yet, and it's been years! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2220 Registered: 12-2003 |
Javagirl, I understand your feelings of fear about people knowing. I lived in that "place" for months. What Richard and I began to realize was that as we prayed for God to lead us, one by one our involvements with the local church dissipated. It was uncanny; a committee which we co-chaired (PR for the church) simply disbanded because of political maneuverings among other groups who wanted our group's responsibilities--and our pastoral advisor did not protect us, etc. etc. Step by step, one thing at a time, doors closed in front of us, and doors we had not seen before opened to lead us out. We were aware at each step that God was in it. He will make very plain to you, Javagirl, where and when you are to walk. Keep trusting Him. Your explanation of your fear of being "out there" clearly describes the cultic nature of this church. That feeling seems so NATURAL when we are inside the church. It felt natural and expected to me. I felt that in some way I really was betraying my friends and family, and that feeling fought with my certainty that I was following Jesus. Think of any evangelical (or even traditional, liberal) Christian church you know. Who would feel betrayed or angry or resentful or fearful if you left the Methodist church for the Baptist church, or left a congregational church for a Calvary Chaperl, etc.? Who would fear for your soul (or for their own reputations!) if you left a Presbyterian church for a Lutheran church? As our pastor once said regarding this very phenomenon, if a member of his congregation left to attend a different one, the only thing he would want to know was that the person was not avoiding a relationship with Jesus. Aside from that, he would have no problem with what church a person attendedóif it was truly a Christian church. It's interesting that this fear we all experience--and even a sense of defensiveness at the same time we are convicted--is a clear red flag about what we're leaving behind. When our knowledge of and relationship with Jesus is at odds with our fear of those we love knowing what we're doing, then we can be sure we're facing a choice between Jesus and something not of Him. But I so KNOW what you're feeling. I'm continuing to pray for you. Dd, what a difficult visit with your parents. I think "Do you want more soup?" was the only thing you could say at that moment! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 492 Registered: 7-2004 |
Javagirl, My parents have NEVER missed a GC. This year with gas prices so high they have decided to skip the festivities...but...they signed up for satellite service well in advance to receive 3abn! Suddenly paying for TV didn't seem so "wasteful" to them anymore! I have come to a place, though, of understanding that my parents are only a product of what they know. You and I are most likely a bit more introspective than our parents. They came from a generation that was taught, in no uncertain terms, not to question. The mere thought of questioning was enough to condemn themselves to a place of never realizing their salvation. I think this is a reason that they feel so hurt about my choices to follow Jesus. First it is contrary to what they know to be truth and second, I am not only rejecting "the church" - I am rejecting them (in their eyes anyway). I do try and be respectful to them. I am sad for all that they are missing but I realize there is so much more to their disappointment in me than just leaving Adventism. | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 102 Registered: 3-2005 |
I too expeienced doors closing as I was searching for truth. We started attending a small SDA Church that was very close knit. We had a wide range of SDA beliefs, but were all open to discussion and searching. We had a weekly Bible study outside of our Saturday Services. But then a couple of "historic" adventists moved in and tried to straighten us out, and before long the Conference got into it. As I watched the political maneuverings and character assination going on, I became convinced that a Church that had the "truth" would not act in such a divisive and cruel manner. I was on the fence about leaving the SDA Church, but knew I wanted something better, more spiritual, more Grace-oriented. When the Conference stepped in and closed our Church it was perfect timing because by then I knew that I would be looking for another Christian Group/Church to worship with. There could be no more fence sitting! It was time to make a clean break. My husband was a little more undecided, but he finally came to the same conclusion. We wanted a Bible-only Church. My husband thought we could find that within the SDA Denomination, but I was sceptical. We spent some time visiting around and it became clear to us that the SDA Church was just plain wrong in their beliefs. Even though we had thrown out EGW, we realized how all the SDA doctrine and culture really was tainted by her. We realized that even doctrine that came from the Bible (or so we thought!) was twisted by her. I felt as if I was needing to redefine my whole understanding of EVERYHTING. We finally did find a great little Church that we have now joined officially. What a difference it makes to understand that our Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, that NOTHING I do can add to that! Our dear friends (4 other couples) from that little SDA Group are still in our life. We don't see them as often because we go to different Churches (or not at all for some). But we do get together for camping and fellowship. One couple is coming we us on our Church Campout this weekend! We have great talks around the campfire, but so far none have outwardly addmitted the error of the SDA Denomination, although most do have inward questions, some even saying they have rejected EGW. We just keep praying for them and discussing things as we can. They are still interested in how we are growing as Christians. I think at least they can see that we haven't left Jesus, that if anything we are more committed to Him, that we are more joyful, more willing to testify what He is doing in our lives. I believe at some point they too will have to follow the Holy Spirit's prompting. It's all in God's timing, but I do want to do my part by sharing the Good News with them! I am so excited by what we have learned that I can't help but tell everyone we know that we have left the SDA Denomination. Of couse, they want to know why and I just tell them we wanted a Bible-based, Christian Church that doesn't have any other outside authority. If they ask more I tell them. Otherwise, I just assure them that I am trusting in Jesus alone, and growing more joyful and peaceful with that every day. They really can't argue that because they see it in my life! When I realize how simple it is to witness, I am so excited. I don't have to understand all that twisted doctrine and disjointed Bible "proofs" in order to share the Love of Jesus with others. WOW! I'm not afraid that I will start talking and then get confused or hung-up by a doctrine that I don't quite understand (the IJ), or a question I can't answer. I only need to point someone to Jesus and the Bible. I can pray with them for the Holy Spirit's guidance. I can trust that whatever little I do, God will make good come from it! Now I want to SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS! PRAISE THE LORD! I KNOW I AM SAVED! HE IS AWESOME! -tisha | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen, I add my thanks for that recap. We don't have access to the broadcast on TV. Is interesting to hear some, at least, of what is taking place. I continue a position I have long held, that the real, the primary, message of the SDA Church is "The Church, The Church, The CHURCH!" Tisha and Dd, I think the most powerful "message" anyone can give to Adventist friends, former friends, and especially family and extended relation still within "the ism " is possibly the silent one; but in whatever way they see and or hear it, to see Jesus and His love in us; the unbounded joy and enthusiastic smiles of utter joy in our assurance of knowing we are NOW saved, eternally saved. For them to see that freedom in Christ (Gal 5:1) and the Gospel is a wondrous thing that is not antinomian at all, but seeks to glorify God more than ever, but now out of the freedom of love; His love for us, manifested in the life, death, resurrection and Priesthood of Christ, and our love for Him exemplified in free abandon and play before Him as children play before their parents. "What can take away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. . . ." "Blessed assurance - Jesus is mine" "Redeemed, how I (NOW) love to proclaim IT," not feeling I've failed as his follower if I didn't give a piece of literature on the Sabbath, or give them an on-the-spot Bible study on some unique "sectarian" doctrine of the church. Now our witness is all about Jesus, "I have a friend so precious," "Jesus SAVES!" I am the happiest little "branch" united with the only true Vine in the Universe. I am now part of Him and He is "nearer than hands and feet, closer than breathing." We are now ONE. I am hid in Him and God's beloved son and daughter. The LORD OUR Righteousness! Jess | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 474 Registered: 3-2005 |
I think one of the major arguments for classifying Adventism as a cult, is the issue Colleen brought up about how no one gets too upset, if people leave Lutheran or other Christian denominations. But the anger and the family shunning of those who leave Adventism is truly real. This is clearly a cultic mentality that is identical to what ex-Mormons face when they leave. I doubt there are many Former Lutheran Forums out there. No, Adventism cannot be classified as just another Christian denomination, although I have many friends and family members in Adventism who are Christians. One problem we face convincing the evangelical community of this problem is when you have people like Lonnie Melashenko and Randy Roberts, who, if you listen to them are indistinguisable from other gospel centered ministries if you evaluate them at face value. Unlike Doug Batchelor or Mark Finley, Melashenko really does sound authentic. And the VOP broadcast will be broadcast on KSJL in St. Louis soon after those interviews are completed that Formers are doing. Let's continue to pray that the true gospel of God's grace will shine through at GC. Stan | ||
| Kae Registered user Username: Kae Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2004 |
Javagirl, My parents are at GC this week, too. In fact, my dad works for the Adventist church ñ as do several other relatives. I know how you feel. At first I was concerned about being ìout there.î How would my family and church friends respond to me once they knew I was questioning the core, distinctive SDA doctrines? I didnít want to hurt anyone ñ least of all those I loved. It has been an interesting journey. Maybe someday Iíll share more. Right now, I would just like to encourage you to follow Godís leading in your life. I am not angry with the Adventist church ñ while I was there I met Jesus, discovered and developed my spiritual gifts, found my wonderful husband, raised a beautiful daughter and developed lasting friendships. I believe God leads everyone in His perfect time. I try not to be argumentative with family and friends on points where we donít agree. However, when the topic comes up, I recommend some very good reading: Galatians, Ephesians, Romans and Hebrews. I pray God will continue to guide and direct you. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1662 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hi Kae, Welcome to the FAF. I have to agree that leaving Adventism is a very interesting journey. I have been fortunate in that my parents are dead and the brothers and sisters I have, have not said much to me. Of course the 3 brothers are not SDA. Two of them studied themselves out of the church and the 3rd was never baptized an SDA. The sisters have not practiced adventism for years, although it appears to have a hold on 3 of the 4. So I just pray for them. God leads us in the way He knows is best for each of us. My journey has been a long one, longer than I realized. But God is good and He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2228 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kae, welcome to the forum! We look forward to knowing you better. I listened to Paulsen's talk this evening. It was fairly unremarkable, but there were some highlights: he stressed missions a lot. It seems the big push is for missions and community outreach: making a difference. The other big push is to get the "young people" ages 15-30 involved in the church. (I interpret this push to mean they are concerned about the attrition of the young.) He also said there would be morning session which he expected all delegates to attend. These morning session would discuss Adventist leadership: the nature and characteristic of Adventist leadership. What are it's "hallmarks"? What "is its genious?" I'm not sure exactly where that discussion is going--it makes me wonder if it has to do with SDA leadership needing to espouse the church doctrines, etc. I don't know. In addition, there are afternoon session from 2-3PM. These will discuss the church in relationship to five things (unfortunately, I missed one of the five). The four I got were these: spiritual life, cities, secular life, and apostasy. He also said he wants all delegates to participate and to verbally give their input. He said careful notes will be taken of all their ideas and suggestions, and these ideas will inlfuence the planning and thinking that will design the programs that will be introduced at the annual councils over the next years. (I'm wondering if this means that the administration is hoping the people in the trenches will be able to make suggestions that might counteract the North American attrition rate. I'm probably oversimplifying, but I did wonder...) That's it for now. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2004  |
I know people slipping out the back door and young people not being committed has been on the agenda before, but is the first time apostasy has been on the agenda? That will be interesting what they come up with on that one. | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen and Riverfont...the "Cultic nature" idea is a little easier to swallow for me. And i saw it even as I wrote. DD: I agree about the parental mindset Tisha the idea about witnessing with out the proofs is exciting Leigh: no guilt here either...hmmmm Jess; loved the lyrics, music speaks to me Kae, got your email, looking forward to talking further. Im reading Galatians now... Flyinglady, just realized why your name is familiar. I think I visited a web site re cleaning or something a cpl years ago. Was that yours? Love to all, and thanks for the imput. I am continuing to be blessed by it all. | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2005 |
Colleen: The 5th, I believe, is "dedicated leaders." It's interesting to read the daily reports: http://www.gcsession.org/news/2005_session_news_12.pdf | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 422 Registered: 4-2000  |
Kae, Welcome to our conversation cafe! Dennis Fischer |
