| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 806 Registered: 10-2004  |
At Stan's suggestion, I'm going to start a new thread about this. I'll copy and paste my post and Stan's from the other thread, and put them here: Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 1:36 pm: I am becoming more and more aware of how cultic/heretical/anti-Christian the SDA "soul ceasing"/human spirit doctrine is. Here is a verse that I just came across recently:
The SDA doctrine of ceasing to exist when you die denies the Biblical reality that we who have been born again have eternal life right now! It denies the Biblical truth that our spirits have been raised to life eternal by the Holy Spirit, and will never die but keep on living forever, even when our physical bodies die. In fact, they even proclaim outright that eternal life is something we receive at the Second Coming (if we've been "good enough"), and not something we now possess. Also, the SDA teaching that the human spirit is only breath totally denies the doctrine of being born again. Jesus says that our spirit must be born of God or we can't enter the kingdom of God (John 3), and SDAs teach that we don't even have a spirit! It simply is not a Christian religion. Also, they teach the same thing as the ancient heresies of Gnosticism/Apollinarianism, by saying that Jesus did not have a human spirit (thus denying that He is fully human). The Bible says that this is antichrist! The Apostle John writes that anyone who teaches this (including Ellen G. White) is a false prophet, a deceiver, and an antichrist. (1 John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7.) Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 30, 2005) ------------------------------------------------------ Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 477 Registered: 3-2005 Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 2:53 pm: Jeremy, Thanks for bringing this topic up. I think this topic deserves to be up on a new thread, if you feel so inclined. The other thought that comes to mind with regard to Jesus is, What happened when His body died? This has interesting implications. Because if He just ceased to exist, and His spirit did not go back to the Father as Jesus Himself proclaimed, then how could He be fully God, as God cannot die. The Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the comma placement in the thief on the cross story the same as SDAs. Stan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2005 |
Could it be explained that since God is Spirit, Jesus didn't 'die', even though his fully human, physical body did? Jeremy was just saying that SDAs reject that humans have spirits and the Bible teaches we do. Furthermore, it teaches that the saved spirit never dies. (I admittedly know NOTHING. But this is the thought that popped into my head. Feel free to correct any and all of my eroneous thinking!) Patria | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 869 Registered: 7-2003  |
You are correct Patria. Jesus is fully God and fully man, therefore He has two natures. So for instance when Jesus got hungry or thirsty it was in relation to his human nature. When Jesus died his body slept even as ours will, His spirit was with the Father even as ours will be. By definition God cannot "die" in the sense of ceasing to exist. Jesus experienced everything humans do, yet he never ceased to posses any of the eternal incommunicable attributes of God. You can only explain the Biblical data by understanding that He had two natures which were not seperable, but were not mixed. The classic church creeds contain a lot of good insight on Christ's natures. Chris | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2005 |
When I was an Adventist, it may have been my own misconceptions, but I always thought that God, the Father, had a physical body. Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2227 Registered: 12-2003  |
I couldn't agree more, Jeremy and Stan. The SDA doctrine of soul sleep is, I'm coming to believe, the most devious heresy of all. John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." God IS spirit, not physical. We worship in spirit (that simply can't be breath!) and truth--which involves our minds. We are to worship God both physically and spiritually. Adventists have no doctrine of the nature of Christ. They just can't decide whether or not He inherited Mary's sin--after all, He did have her genes! The issue is a moot point when one understands spirit. Jesus was born spiritually alive; conceived by the Holy Spirit. He never had to be born again and brought from death to life as we do. THAT is the nature of His sinlessness--just as our inherently dead spirits--not our misdeeds--is the nature of our sinfulness. If humans don't have spirits, there's no such thing as the new birth, as Jeremy said above. After all, what would be coming to life? As an Adventist, I always thought of "new birth" as metaphorical. In fact, I disliked the words intensely. I was VERY uncomfortable with people who talked about being born again. I felt they were simplistic and fundamentalist; I remember feeling quite superior to people who hung everything on some "emotional" thing like being born again! Now, however, it makes perfect sense, and I can see that on this side of the cross, without the new birth, one is not saved. In fact, the new birth is what makes new covenant Christians different from Israel. In fact, the new birth is what Paul writes about in 2 Timothy 1:9-10: "This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." The OT is vague about death because Jesus hadn't yet destroyed its hold on humanity and opened the new and living way to the Father: His blood which makes possible the new birthóour immortality. Yes, I believe the issue of the human spirit is perhaps the most crucial issue that Adventists must deal with. All misunderstanding about Jesus, salvation, propitiation and expiation--all is related to one's view of the human spirit and Christ's nature. Ok, Colleen--off your soapbox... Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 262 Registered: 7-2004  |
Ok, I have a couple questions. (I still don't have the state of the dead stuff figured out yet, but I'm much closer to accepting that we must have spirits that our brought to life in the new birth and eternal life begins at that point.) My question is, how can our body sleep at death? It clearly returns to dust and is non existent. The body will have to be re-created at the second coming, right? That's why I figured SDA's had to believe in soul sleep is because if the body is non existent, there's only the soul left to sleep. That belief is what made me start thinking that maybe the soul/spirit isn't non existent, because if it's sleeping, it can't be non existent. By the way, what is the difference between the soul and the spirit? I came across something really strange to me in the latest Proclamation. Dale Ratzlaff said in #55 of his endnotes,
He goes on to say the "being saved" refers to sanctification. So, is anyone else confused? If at death the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God, what happens to the soul? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2004 |
I almost feel guilty asking these kind of questions, like I'm being difficult. Just wondered if anyone had any ideas, because soul and spirit are often used interchangeably, and while I know there must be a difference, I can't find much in the Bible that would define those differences or what happens to the soul at death. If it's not in the Bible, maybe we don't need to know... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 950 Registered: 7-2003  |
Patria, B has said the same thing...that God had a physical body. He said that when I asked the question how could God be a soul and spirit and be alive without a body. He said God must have a body. It's kindof a circular reasoning, to me..... | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 951 Registered: 7-2003 |
Raven, I don't think your questions are stupid. I guess I don't see the body as being "recreated", but as being transformed. As you probably know, they've exumed some old "dead" bodies, and there is still matter...so they don't "cease existing" or become "non-existent" as some say. Some only have skeletons and others might be dust...but dust is still a substance. So, depending upon how well someone was "preserved", their body could be pretty intact...but if you look at the passages about Jesus resurrected body, it's clear our bodies will be different than they are in this life. To say they will be recreated almost sounds like reincarnation to me, so that is what makes me brissle at that term. Unfortunately, I don't have the scripture in front of me now, but perhaps someone else will give you better information. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 870 Registered: 7-2003 |
Raven, when I or the Bible speak of "sleeping" it is in a metaphorical sense. The idea is that the spirit is no longer with the body so the body can be said to be "asleep" or dead, but the spirit lives. One day God will reunite the spirits of believers with glorified bodies at the resurrection. Along with Melissa, I would say that "recreate" is probably not the best terminology. The Bible usually uses the word "resurrection" and it's the best word I can think of for what happens. Paul describes the nature of the resurrection body in this way:
Chris | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 468 Registered: 6-2004 |
I'm glad we have this topic going again. I always need a refresher course on this teaching. The SDA really messed me up about this soul sleep teaching and it still clings to me at times even though I know it isn't the truth. The Mormons believe that God once had a body, although this isn't found anywhere in the Bible. We are made in his image, yet how can that be? It has to be in regard to having a spirit inside. I mean, angels are spirits with no bodies and we are made just a little lower than the angels. Even when Jesus comes back the Bible says that those who died will return with him, therefore they are in spirit form returning for the redemption of their new bodies. | ||
| Jan Registered user Username: Jan Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2005 |
OKay, I have a question too: Was something different about "death" and the afterlife in the OT? Did Jesus (who had the "key" to death) change that event through His death and resurrection? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 808 Registered: 10-2004 |
Raven, the Bible seems to imply that the soul also goes to heaven. (Matthew 10:28 and Revelation 6:9-11.) Some people believe that the spirit and soul are the same thing. But I don't agree with that position based on the Scriptural evidence. And so to answer Pw's question, I believe that that is how we are made in the image of God--a "trinity" of body, soul, and spirit. Patria, Ellen G. White does indeed teach the unBiblical/unorthodox concept that the Father has a physical body like Jesus does (although at one point she said that Jesus "dropped" His body off at the ascension and was no longer human I guess--more antichrist teaching)! She supposedly asked Jesus this in vision (about the Father)! I guess she really didn't believe the Holy Spirit was even a person, because she didn't ask about Him! EGW also teaches that even Satan has a physical body/flesh! EGW tried to make everything, and I do mean everything, physical! Very unBiblical. Colleen, Great points about Jesus' spirit being alive and sinless. Also, Jesus did not have sinful flesh/body like we do, but had sinless flesh/body. That's why He had no sinful tendencies/desires like we do, unlike what EGW taught. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 01, 2005) | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2004 |
ok, now I'm confused. why doesn't God have a body? might it not be a 'body' that we just can't concieve of - like Paul says, different types of bodies exist. I think maybe this is something we just have no way of really understanding until we meet Him face to face -oops, a face is part of a body! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 809 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jan, the answer to your question is "yes"! Before Jesus' death and resurrection, the righteous did not go to heaven when they died. They went to a section of Hades (translated "hell" in the KJV) called "Abraham's bosom"/Paradise. But after Jesus' sacrifice they were able to go to heaven! The wicked have always gone to the "torment section" of Hades at death. Now I do still have a few questions about this. When exactly did people start going to heaven? The thief on the cross apparently went to Paradise even after Jesus' sacrifice. And how could Elijah go to heaven before Jesus' death and resurrection if those who died could not? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2232 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, in relation to your question re: spirit vs. soul: There has been disagreement among Christians for a long time about whether we are "composed" of three parts or two parts: Body, soul, and spirit, or body and soul/spirit. Grudem's Bible Doctrines book discusses these two views. In general, here's the distinction. Body we understand. Soul is thought by many to be the part of us that more or less unites the body and the spirit. It's thought of as, perhaps, related to "personality", or the "thing" that needs a living body and a spirit to exist. This idea has a basis in the Genesis text that says God breathed the breath of life into Adam's body that He formed, and man became a living soul. This view does make some sense, and it is probably this understanding that Dale's footnote is based on. In his statement, the spirit (the part of us in the image of God that is brought to life by the indwelling Spirit) IS saved at conversion. The soul--where our new natures intersect with our still-sinful flesh, is "being saved" or sanctified. Romans clarifies that our spirits are alive because of righteousness when the Spirit of God lives in us, but our bodies are still dead because of sin. (Romans 8:10) Further, Paul says that we who have the "firstfruits of the spirit groan inwardly as we wait for our adoption as son, the redemption of our bodies" (Romans 8:23) This redemption of our bodies, he further says, is the hope in which we are saved (v. 24). Ephesians 1:13 says the seal of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of what is to come--that is, the redemnption of our bodies. Our spirits are alive eternally when we are reborn, but our bodies are still mortal. The miracle is that the eternal God of the universe literally lives in our mortal tents and gives us eternal life while our bodies are still dead! The dichotomy view (body plus soul/spirit) sees the soul and the spirit as essentially the same thing. This view, says Grudem, is the more commonly held view today among evangelicals. The reason for this view being preferred is that the Bible does not seem to clearly differentiate between spirit and body. There is frequently an interchange between "spirit" and "soul" in the Bible. For example, Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:46-47). Clearly this seems to be an example of parallelism. Further, those who have died and gone to heaven, Grudem points out, "can be called either "spirits" or "souls". (Heb.12:23--"the spirits of just men mde perfect" and Rev. 6:9--the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne", etc.) Moreover, man is sometimes called "body and soul" or "body and spirit". Jesus said not to fear those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul," but rather "fear him who can destroy both sould and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28). On the other hand, Paul intructs the Corinthians to deliver a brother in sin to Satan "for the destruction fo the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5). These and many other examples clearly refer to "soul" and "spirit" as the non-physical part of man. Grudem does a systematic study of the references to "spirit" and "soul" and concludes that there is not Biblical evidence to clearly support a view that the two are different. Rather, the evidence leans strongly toward the idea that the two are both referring to essentially the same thing: the non-physical part of man that can know, perceive, think, honor God, feel downcast, etc. It is the part of a human that can know God or can be given over to evil. Jesus had to become human in order to receive a body and take the curse of sin and death for humanity. It had to be a human who paid the price. God is not naturally "a body". He is spirit. PW, I like the conclusion of your post above. That is exactly how I've come to understand the situation. When we die, our soul/spirit goes to be with Jesus if we have been saved. It waits in Jesus for the resurrection when it will be united with our glorified, immortal bodies. If a person is not saved, the soul/spirit goes into a place of waiting away from God where it awaits its own resurrection for the lake of fire. Many evangelicals are starting to say they believe in soul sleep as well. I'm coming to the conclusion, however, that they don't mean the same thing the Adventists mean by that term (although the Adventists are quick to capitalize on it!). I'm beginning to see that they probably see "soul sleep" much the way some of us see it: the literal soul goes to Jesus, but it doesn't have free access to wander the universe and dance on the streets of gold because it's not in a body. 2 Corinthians 5 says we do not wish to be unclothed (when the mortal tent dies)--but we long to be clothed with immortality. The same chapter says we are away from the Lord when we are at home in the body. Clearly the essential "US" is not our mortal tent. We aren't told exactly what happens to the soul at death, but inferring from 2 Cor. 5, it seems likely that our souls are with Jesus--IN Jesus, even--and that existence is not free-ranging as a complete, physical person. It is also not non-existent or unconscious. We are in Christ; we are in His love; we are never separated from Him. It is "better by far" (Phil 1:24) to depart and be with Christ. I believe that Adventists have twisted even the idea of soul sleep. If one sees it as a person not being fully ambulatory, so to speak, and free to move about the universe because one is not yet in a glorified body but is waiting In Christ, then I can see the rationale for defining that as "soul sleep" (although I really don't see the Bible supporting the idea of unconsciousness or non-existence). If, however, one calls death "soul sleep" meaning that one's personality ceases to exist when one's body dies because one's spirit is merely breath, then THAT idea, I believe, is heresy. If we do not have spirits that are real things that know Jesus, then we are no different from animals, and the incarnate Jesus was also no different from a well-trained and disciplined animal. (I mean this with NO irreverence.) If our spirits, however, are real and sentient and know Jesus, then being born again is real and is truly a blessed hope! Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 159 Registered: 6-2001  |
I dont find it coincidental that SDAs exclusively use Old Testament verses to prove their point about soul sleep and non-SDAs use New Testament verses. It is my theory that what happens at death fundamentally changed when Christ died.The change was manifested by dead people coming to life and walking around as mentioned in the Bible. I have never heard a good explanation for why this happened, what it fulfilled/meant etc. Maybe in the Old Testament when people died they did sleep, but after Christ's death they went to wherever they were supposed to be going. Like I said, it's just a theory that's been in the back of my head for awhile. Speculatively, Hannah | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 160 Registered: 6-2001 |
It would also explain why people in the Old Testament were able to talk to the dead (ie Saul) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2234 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hannah, for me the jury is still out re: those appearances of the dead in the Old Testament. Since those "sightings" were strongly denounced in the OT and forbidden for Israelites to participate in, and since they happened in conjuction with witches (as the one of Endor who conjured up Samuel), I've always suspected they might have been demonic specters, just as such things would be today. I've wondered, as you have, if what happens at death was different before Christ dies. I'm beginning to believe, though, that once we die, we leave time. Our spirits go into eternity. God predestined and foreknew us from before the creation of the earth. He wouldn't need to "wait" for things to play out in time for Him to receive the spirits of the faithful dead or to place the unfaithful spirits in Hades. Clearly there is a curtain drawn between us and a clear view of eternity. I just don't think that God has/had to wait (is there such a thing as "waiting" in eternity?) for Jesus to physically shed his blood to receive the spirits of those who loved Him. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I obviously don't even know how to talk properly about this subject, but I am increasingly convinced that God's sovereign power and foreknowledge are amazing assurances of our eternal security. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 479 Registered: 3-2005 |
There is so much to be said on this topic. All the false teachings of JW and Mormonism and SDA have their roots in erroneous teachings about the nature of Christ and the nature of man. For over 20 years I thought this doctrine was unimportant. Yes, I was taught God the Father had a physical body, despite the clear teaching of John 4:24 "God is Spirit". If we were created in the image of God, it can only make sense that we are created with spirits also. There are so many texts in the N.T. that could make no sense at all, if you tried putting the word "breath" instead of Spirit. What sense would Steven's speech in Acts 7 make where he says upon dying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" How could that be breath and make any sense. When Paul tells us to refrain from everything that contaminates body and spirit, I don't think he was talking about "bad breath". I only started to put my thoughts together on this doctrine when I read Colleen's article in Proclamation! I think it was Sept 2004--the article "The Human Spirit--breath or core identity" This is a great primer on this topic. I have not gotten a chance to read Dr. Robert Morey's book "Death and the Afterlife", but I understand it is a classic work on this topic which is readable(I think Dennis has commented on this before). Morey links Adventism as an example along with JW's to this teaching of soul sleep as being cultic, and is only one of the reasons he has classified Adventism as a cult. You can order "Death and the Afterlife" by going to www.faithdefenders.com. Stan |
