| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 393 Registered: 5-2002 |
I am wondering if anyone else shares my experience in this regard. It seems that with my non-SDA Christian friends and family, we can discuss just about any topic of theology, and do so in a friendly, open, non-judgmental manner. I have never heard that "theology discussions are divisive", nor have I ever been asked by a non-SDA to discontinue discussing theology because it will drive a wedge into our relationship. However, it has been my experience that Seventh-day Adventists simply do not seem to be able to hang around very long for any kind of open-forum theology discussion with a non-SDA Christian. It seems that that they must be able to control the direction of the discussion with the standard question-and-answer format we all grew accustomed to while inside SDAism, or they will not engage in what could actually be deemed discussion. Things seem to get really uncomfortable and even hostile if the Q+A doesn't go as they planned. The accusations and condemnation follow shortly after they realize that the conversation isn't panning out like they want it to. I have found that as soon as I begin really pressing the points where SDAism and orthodox reformed theology differ, I am politely informed that all theology discussion must immediately end because they are "divisive" to our relationship. However, I find that the relationship usually eventually heads south after that as well. Have any other formers experienced this dynamic? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 394 Registered: 5-2002 |
I neglected to mention one other consistency in my experience. Once the announcement is made that "theology discussions are divisive and must stop", they hand me one of their Q+A pamphlets or some such literature and inform me that "all our answers are in THERE". | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 461 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, yes, YES. We must understand that from their point of view, we are mercilessly attacking them. Whether or not we have the same problem, SDA's, in my experience, tend to be especially anchored in the need to be always right, and always hold the "higher moral ground." Any "threat" to that position must be avoided or defended. In some cases, (R/S, CARM forums) the defense is vitriolic and intractable. So, no wonder the relationship "heads south." The key to a civil discussion is: all parties must respect the other's position, even when the disagreement is profound. In my estimation, many SDAs cannot allow themselves to respect any opposing position. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2005 |
Freeatlast: I'm glad you brought this up because it is a great area of frustration to me and my husband. The latest 'debate' has been about Abraham and the Sabbath and the quotes to support their stance are taken from the Clear Word book! Furthermore this was all given to us in a written format so we couldn't dialogue. I have a letter typed and ready to send. Am praying over it. This has come from my MIL who has also told us we are eternally lost until we return to the 'truth'. The thing is, I know she says these things out of desperation and her sense of love. She really believes them. Colleen mentioned in another thread, that most SDAs have a seed of doubt. If my MIL does, it doesn't show. She is so indoctrinated it's unbelievable. And yes, the need to be right is very strong. I believe this issue to be a particular problem with humans in general and you couple that with what has been presented and believed as 'absolute truth', it's a tough hurdle to jump. As a matter of fact, I struggle with that every day still. I WANT to be right all the time forgetting that this is about God and His Glory and at times that has meant accepting that even if I am right, it's better to back off to God's glory. He will show them His way in His time. I LOVE that about Him. On the flip side, when I bring my new understanding of Jesus to my family, they really don't know enough theology to debate. They just look at me and hope I'll shutup in a minute.  (LOL) That also requires me to be still and let God be God. It's all about His timing! Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 463 Registered: 3-2005 |
Brian, You are absolutely right. You mentioned trying to talk to SDAs about orthodox reformed theology. That is always difficult. The Reformed doctrinal positions are anathema to extreme Arminian SDAs as these doctrines give all the credit to God for our salvation, rather than giving any credit to man whatsoever. There is always that element of pride that speaks to human nature that makes us feel good if we can somehow contribute something to the process of salvation. In our discussions with SDAs we must always speak the truth in love and pray for God to open their eyes and remove the veil. Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 540 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is my observation that SDA's, particularly those that were raised from birth, and educated as SDA's, tend to think they have ultimate knowledge of the scriptures, and their meaning. To participate in a "discussion" that would allow them to perhaps learn from the subject matter would mean they have to become vulnerable and admit they might not know all there is to know. From my experience, you don't want to separate an SDA from arguing through the SOP (well, yes, you do, but they won't like it). A case in point would be to go check the current discussion going on right now on R/S -- http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=623. This discussion is taking place amongst SDA's, with one of them trying earnestly to make heads or tails of how everything links up. I think it is E. J. Clark who is looking for the scriptures and SOP to agree. The others are trying to shut her up. They're not really trying to show her how things fit together, they just want to make her go away, and she's just trying to see how other parts of SOP fit with Great Controversy. You see, she's discovered that even the SOP can't always agree with itself, and she's asking for some kind of accountability. I remember laboring with a SVA brother to get him to acknowledge that there was a literary form that is followed in scriptures when discussing the sabbaths. After I got him on the same page about that, using several OT examples, and then discussing the fact that Paul was well-versed in the use of that literary form, we then read Col. 2:16. <Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.> He was dumbfounded and couldn't say anything. It took him three weeks to come back to me to tell me that I misunderstood Paul's meaning in that text, that he knew that, but was busy at that exact moment and would get back to me to explain it to me. I never heard from him again (the shunning thing again). My bible study group (Presbyterian Church) is willing to discuss any point of doctrine, and are willing to say, "I just don't know, let's look into that." They are also willing to be taught by a clear "thus sayeth the Lord" or "the scriptures say." That is because these lovely people believe in the scriptures being inspired by God, and for them the scriptures are the "very words of God." Yes, Jerry, SDA's cannot allow themselves to respect any opposing position. We need to pray for insight for the SDA's on an individual basis, and for honesty from the leaders at large. Oh, that's right, we already do that every weekend. Maybe for this week we should ramp that up to Every Day while the General Conference is in session. I have many loved ones who are involved in SDA and would love to see the light of faith in their eyes. Please, Dear Jesus, open their eyes to your truth and love. They need to know from deep in their hearts that you have completed all the work required for salvation. They need to know that their righteousness is as nothing in comparison with your over-awing righteousness so freely given to cover our shortcomings. Thank you, Jesus, for being our propitiation, for taking our sins and illnesses and taking them to the grave, where they belong. We sing in exaltation because you broke the seal on the grave and have walked out of, and away from sin and death forevermore. We thank you for granting that victory to each and every one of us, undeserving though we may be. We thank you, we praise you, and look forward to living eternity with you. Amen. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 465 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen Belva, that is an inspiring prayer. Thanks for the reminder to pray for GC as the session opens tomorrow. Stan | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2003 |
Belvalew, you said "Maybe for this week we should ramp that up to Every Day while the General Conference is in session." I agree! I have friends and family attending the session and so many more watching on 3abn. ************* Oh Lord, Open the eyes of those who are honestly seeking you. "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 Reveal yourself to them in a mighty way. "You are the God who does wonders; You have declared Your strength among the peoples." Ps. 77:14 Let them seek the freedom and truth that is found only in You. Amen | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2000 |
I do agree. Adventists attitude is: We have the Truth, you are wrong. Shut up! Listen to us. we will tell you the truth. Belva said, "It is my observation that SDA's, particularly those that were raised from birth, and educated as SDA's, tend to think they have ultimate knowledge of the scriptures, and their meaning." In my experience, coming from a place where people were brought into the SDA church, the attitude you mentioned Belva, is equally strong or similiar. It is the spirit behind the church that drives that attitude. I find it a futile venture discussing scripture with most adventists. When and if they force a discussion, I would deliberately talk about topics outside their (domain) favorite theological themes; Sabbath, state of the dead, and last day events. I find many SDAs are clueless about the scriptures beyond their common indoctrinating proof texts or some bible promises they pick at random. Whenever I happen to have conversation an SDA, I simply state my understanding of the simple gospel message and testify of who Jesus Christ is in my life. No arguments. Many times they would patronize me and say, "I am glad you are happy." My retort, "Not, happy, joyful in the Lord." SDAs have an overwhelming need to BE right. Why?!!! | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 462 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bmorgan asked, (perhaps rhetorically):
Let me venture a guess: Perhaps it is because the bedrock foundation of their denomination is "We're the ones who know what the truth is and every other denomination got it wrong." With that as the basis for the creation of the organization, is it not superiority that is taught on many levels within the culture of the denomination? If one then allows another viewpoint to even attempt to achieve "superiority," one has rebuked the entire moral construct of one's life. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 542 Registered: 7-2004 |
Early on the SDA's called all other Christian churches Babylon. When you come from that viewpoint you are automatically discounting the validity of someone else's experience as a Christ follower. This is, sadly, where the SDA church has taken its stand. Now that we have moved beyond that narrow-minded framework we are in a position to see that SDA's are just possibly sitting directly in the middle of a place they have assigned to everyone else. In fact, there are very few Christian churches that I would make that statement about. I'm not meaning to hurt anyone, or point, but I find the definition inescapable. That sense of helplessness that I had as an SDA because I faced the fact that I'd never ever be able to measure up to the ideal is a direct result of the out-of-focus doctrines of that church. As long as mere humans have a part to play in their own salvation, those people will continue to have their residency in Babylon. I will forever praise Jesus for opening my eyes to the fact that he requires faith, and only faith from me. Any other changes that need to happen in my life he will make. Give me Jesus! Belva | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2000 |
Bull's Eye! Jerry you hit the target. Belva you're dead right again. Oh how well I remember the feeling or burden of helplessness knowing I would NEVER measure up. Oh, I feel like dancing. It's foolishness, I know, and if they (SDA)would ever learn and know Jesus, they would dance with me too. Disclaimer: Please understand it is not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings. However,I am speaking about SDAs I knew and SDAs I know personally, today. Perhaps, some of you know many Adventists who are different, but I am sorry, I can hardly name any. However, I do want them to Know the joy of the Lord and live in Freedom. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1657 Registered: 3-2004  |
Yes, I agree, let us pray for the GC session that starts tomorrow. I used to be an arrogant SDA who knew the "truth" but could not talk about anything but the Sabbath when asked what the truth was. Now, it is so good to know the truth is Jesus. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2000 |
That was my 50th post. Now, I know why I will get in trouble. I am talking(posting) TOO much. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2004  |
It is hard for anyone in a religious system that teaches that they are the church with all of the truth and knowledge to treat others opinions as just as important and valuable as their own. It becomes easy to have, and display, a sense of spirital superiority. But I must also ask the questions,
If many of us are honest with ourselves, we will probably find that, from time to time, we exhibit some of the same behaviors that we chastise others for having. On the topic of hopelessness as an SDA, that is something I can relate to very well. So many formers describe it so similarly I often wonder if that experience of hopelessness is needed, at least in some cases, in order to see what true hope the Gospel offers. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 546 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ric, you may be right. A person must be willing to see they have a need before they will take steps to address that need. About the pious response -- I suppose we all fall victim to that behavior from time to time. You would think that once we had escaped from that sort of setup we would be more aware and avoid those behaviors, but it is not always so. We probably have the tendency to want to teach/preach when we really don't have a receptive audience. There is also the fact that God may have assigned someone else to reach that person, and we are just blundering into the situation. I'm sure I've done that a time or so. If what we are sharing is our joy in serving Jesus, there can be no fault found. Once you try to force someone to express your view of something you may be on the wrong path. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2201 Registered: 12-2003  |
I suspect you're right about the hopelessness being the means of so many Adventists becoming willing to "hear" the the gospel, Ric. Excellent point. Yes, your discussions of what it's like to try to talk theology with an Adventist is exactly what it's like in our family, too. I remember so clearly the feeling I used to have if someone I loved showed signs of neglecting "eternal truths" such as Sabbath observance, Bible study, etc. I remember feeling absolutely frantic and out-of-control. I couldn't bear the thought of them "leaving the truth", and somehow I felt obliged to press them into compliance. I had absolutely no understanding of God's sovereignty or of surrendering others to Him. Obviously, I really didn't understand surrendering myself, either. God allowed me to suffer great personal trauma and shame in order to bring me to a place of realizing I had no option BUT surrender. Somehow that ability to allow God to deal with another person's life is related to our willingness to surrender oursleves. Perhaps that's why Adventists in general get pretty frantic when they talk to formers who have not apostatized but have found Jesus instead. When they encounter security and trust, they've no idea what to do with that, because they don't (in general) experience those things. A person who has surrendered him/herself to Jesus has a deep security about them that baffles Adventists, and they don't know what to say. Similarly, it's only when a person has surrendered him/herself that he can surrender another person without feeling threatened by or responsible for them. Thanks for mentioning daily prayer during GC. I agree; we need to pray every day that God will open eyes, reveal truth, and break the spirit of Adventism--both within and outside the church. Beginning this week, St. Louis's biggest Christian radio station, KJSL AM 630, is airing daily 10-minute interviews with fourteen different former Adventists on the morning Tim and Al show. These interveiws will continue throughout GC. Dale is contacting the station to see if we could obtain these 14 interviews edited together which we could then put on the website for people to listen to. (We discovered that KJSL does not do internet audio of their programming, so we can't actually listen unless we're able to receive their signal.) The Christian community needs to know the truth, and Adventists need to know the truth. Dear Father, I pray that you will break the spirit of Adventism and expose it. Please set free those in bondage to its deception, and bring those who are dishonest to a crisis of conscience. Please expose the truth about this religion to the Christian community, and equip them to enfold and understand people who find asylum and fellowship in local Christian churches. We praise You for being sovereign over all of us and for giving us the grace and mercy of participating with You in Your work and Your kingdom. Please keep us faithful and honoring You. In Jesus' name, Amen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1658 Registered: 3-2004 |
Father in heaven, You are the Alpha and Omega, the I AM. Please be with the former SDAs as they witness on the radio during the GC session. Fill them with the Holy Spirit and give them the words that will bring honor and Glory to Your name. Do what is necessary to break the spirit of Adventism so others will know what SDAs really teach. Give understanding to other Christians so that any one leaving adventism will be welcomed with love and asylum in local Christian churches. Father, send the Holy Spirit to the GC session to teach those participating about you. I want to tell you to confuse them but I know my ways are not yours. You know best how to bring each individual to you. Do what is needed for each individual at the session. God you are wonderful and awesome in all you do. Keep us formers strong and faithful and may we always honor you. Thank you for Jesus. Diana | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 345 Registered: 7-2000 |
The URL for the radio station in St. Louis is: http://www.ladesign.net/kjsl/ I found it interesting that one of the programs that they air is 'Voice of Prophecy' with Lonnie Meleshenko. Now why would they air that program and have interviews with former SDA's? And who are these former SDA's? There's an e-mail address and a comment line number on that web-site. Maybe we should use it?.......... | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 89 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, frantic is what I notice too. I also remember feeling that way. I was able to witness it after leaving SDA's. My teenage son had his SDA friend over. We had our very knowledgable Sunday School teacher over visiting also. They got into a discussion about whether there were two or three steps in the process of salvation. Our teacher said two, and the young SDA friend said three. Sanctification, Justification and I think the SDA boy was trying to say Purification. Anyway, he got on the phone with his dad and was trying to get the answers for the Sunday School teacher. But he appeared frantic, as in "I'm right, and you are wrong, and I have to convince you of this SDA belief". I actually saw myself from the past in his actions. I praise God that I no longer have to "convince" people of peculiar truths, and I can concentrate on sharing the good news of the gospel as written in the Bible!!!!!! It is overwhelmingly a more joyful feeling! |
