| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2286
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:21 am: |     |
I just reread your "apostasy" info above again, Esther, and I have to make a few more comments. First, creating "small groups" to counteract apostasy is really a method of developing a "program" to engage people. It doesn't address the true spiritual issues they face.
Second, the SDA church is looking at its apostasy problem like one business comparing itself to another. How can we "care for" our members so they don't leave us for greener pastures?
The real problem they're not facing really IS the reason so many of us have left: we find Adventism to be unbiblical. If instead of trying to stanch the flow of exiting members by making better programs and environments they looked at what really is missing, they might find the secret.
If they compared their apostasy problem to the church (Christian church, that is) in China they would find that it is growing, not shrinking. The believers in China do not have, generally, church buildings. They do not have intentionally crafted "small groups" (although their home churches are probably "small groups"). They are not concerned with "biblical faith", whatever that is. They are filled with faith in Jesus and have been transformed by the Holy Spirit. They're not abandoning Jesus and fellowship in spite of severe threats and danger. Conflicts with "pastors or other members" is not a significant issue. Further, the idea of the church not meeting their needs isn't on the radar screen, either.
So, what makes the church in China so successful in spite of its failure to meet the six criteria listed by the "church thinkers" Esther quoted above?
The answer is simple: they have met Jesus, and they love Him. He has place His transforming faith in them, and they will follow and serve Him no matter what the cost.
The Adventist church doesn't want to examine the reason so many of us have left. It scares them. They have no answer for us. They cling to the dream that they can fix their problem with the "right" programs.
Programs will never fix their problem. Unless Jesus is the central focus, the only reason for their existence, the Adventist church will struggle with attrition. And if Jesus were to be the only focus and reason for its existence, they would have to jetiison EGW and all their Adventist-ized doctrines and learn to read the Bible as the only written inerrant rule of faith and practice God has given us.
Jesus is the only answer for church attrition. Church building and small groups will never fix their problem.
Colleen |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 1:20 pm: | |
Yes, Julie, I feel sad for them, too. I get impatient for my friends and family to see the Truth in Jesus and the errors of Adventism. I need to continue to pray for patience and to wait for God's timing. I need also to remember that it took several years of study before we left.
I liked your quote:
"Then that garbage smells even worse than it did before." so true!
|
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1720
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:11 pm: | |
I remember some time last year where we, on the forum, were asked to email FFT or one of the other SDA programs and tell the person why we left the SDA church. IF the SDAs would ask us and IF they believed us, they would know the truth and that would scare them, I am sure. So they make up all kinds of other excuses and never look at themselves. It is very sad and that is why we pray for them and have our prayer chain.
God is good. Jesus is all we need. They are awesome.
Diana |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:44 pm: | |
Thanks, Esther, for posting that list. As my wife and I are actively engaged in the transitioning phase, we have found #1 on the list to the be the most indicative of our particular experience. The SDA pastor knows that we have been questioning doctrine for a while now, but I get the feeling that he thinks we are using this merely as an excuse. He has asked my wife on 3 separate ocassions the same question..."Are you sure that someone hasn't done something to upset you?" This really isn't such a far-fetched idea since many of the church members here are outspoken conservative/historical/(cultic) Adventists and a few have had run-ins with the more liberal-leaning folks in the not-too-distant past. It's so hard for ingrained SDA's to accept the possibility that highly educated people would seriously abandon the "truth" of Adventism (ie intentionally turn their back on Jesus) because of disagreement with Adventist directives based on their unbiblical nature. There have to be other explanations predicated on emotion and externals rather than honest, reasoned study guided by the Holy Spirit.
My SDA family believes that the root of our questioning goes back to when we had personal difficulties with the previous pastor a few years ago. I have vehemently denied this but I feel like I'm just wasting my breath. That veil seems impenatrable sometimes. Talk about frustrating! One of my close relatives sent me an email responding to our leaving the church and in it she told me how she believes that Christ is coming very, very soon because people around her are "making their choices for or against God." It's obvious where she believes I stand. Sad. I know, I know...no one ever said this was going to be easy.
Heretic
(Message edited by Heretic on July 12, 2005) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:12 pm: | |
Heretic, I'm so sorry. What you are going through is painful, and to have those you love believe (or at least throw the barbs at you) that you are choosing to leave Jesus is just so frustrating and disappointing and insulting. Sometimes I have found myself feeling defensive for Jesus--when people have said that we are receiving blessings from Satan or that time will reveal "who's right", I want to shout, "You can't talk about our Savior like that!"
You're right about the automatic attitude that no one could possibly leave Adventism because of studying and finding it wanting. That's another attitude that makes me feel like shouting--only in this case I just want to make people HEAR me say, "I STUDIED my way out--there's no anger; no one hurt me; I loved the church--but I STUDIED my way out, and I did it carefully and methodically and looked at every Adventist argument there is."
I just have to keep going back to rejoicing in Jesus and asking Him to keep me faithful and honoring Him.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 837
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 5:13 pm: | |
Hannah, here are a couple links to some more statistics:
World
North American Division
When you click on "Accession Rate" it says:
quote:'Accession Rate' indicates the number of accessions (baptisms and professions of faith) as a percentage of beginning membership in the given year.
[...]
Significance: This rate helps gauge how effective the field members are at soul winning.
So they are admitting that "soul winning" = getting people into their church (cult).
Regarding the quote from the church manual...
quote:The erring member should be assured that the church will always hope that reaffiliation will take place and that one day there will be eternal fellowship together in the kingdom of God.
So what they are saying is that if the person does not return to the SDA church they will NOT make it to heaven.
Also, notice how the person who chooses to leave the SDA church is automatically and always "erring"?!
At the recent 2005 GC Session they passed a statement called "Protocol Statement on Additions or Revisions to the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs" which starts out like this:
quote:VOTED, To approve a Protocol Statement on Additions or Revisions to the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, which reads as follows:
In adding to and/or revising the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs it is imperative to involve the world church as much as possible in the process. Any suggestion should be based on a serious concern for the well-being of the world church and its message and mission, be biblically based, and informed by the writings of Ellen G White.
--http://news.adventist.org/specials/2005/gcsession/voted_docs/fundamental_beliefs.html
They claim to be "a mainstream Protestant church" (on the homepage of their NAD website) and yet they continue to put out statements like that!! It's pretty amazing.
Also, throughout their newly revised section on rebaptism in their church manual (and throughout the whole church manual), they point to EGW as part of their basis for their beliefs and practices (and even use EGW quotes), such as in the following quotes:
quote:On the basis of acceptance of significant new truths, Ellen G White supports rebaptism as the Spirit leads the new believer to request it.
[...]
Although apostasy clearly existed in the apostolic church (e.g. Heb. 6:4-6), Scripture does not address the question of rebaptism. Ellen G. White supports rebaptism when members have fallen away in apostasy and have lived in such a manner that the faith and principles of the church have been publicly violated. Then they should, in case of reconversion and application for church membership, enter the church as in the beginning, by baptism. (See Evangelism, pp 189, 197.)
[...]
On the basis of biblical teaching and the guidance of Ellen G White, rebaptism should occur only in special circumstances and should be relatively rare.
--http://news.adventist.org/specials/2005/gcsession/voted_docs/church-manual.html
Regarding Esther's quote of Mark Finley from the Review's web site (http://www.adventistreview.org/2005bulletin/bulletin7-actions.html)...
quote:4. A weak biblical faith. A number of studies indicate that when people have a weak biblical faith, when they do not understand what they are doing in joining a religious community of Seventh-day Adventists, they are likely to leave more quickly.
So what about those who are RAISED in the SDA church, who are EDUCATED in the SDA church, who hold leadership positions in the SDA church, who thoroughly understand Adventism, and who LEAVE because they find the SDA doctrines to be unBiblical???!! They just refuse to even acknowledge that people who do understand Adventism do leave!
Finley also says:
quote:3. According to Acts 2:46, there was corporate worship and praise through the Sabbath experience and through biblical preaching. Corporate worship was a part of the New Testament experience.
Notice how he puts "the Sabbath experience" first before Biblical preaching!! But Acts 2:46 doesn't even mention any "Sabbath experience"--in fact it clearly says "every day"!!!!! The NT Church's "Sabbath experience" was an "every day" rest in and celebration of Christ's finished work for them!!!
Finley also stated:
quote:In the past two years the Seventh-day Adventist Church has lost nearly one third of the aggregate number that was baptized. (It was not one third of those baptized-it was one third of the number of baptisms.)
1. Is that acceptable to the Lord? If not, what can we do about it?
I'm going to quit looking at that page, before I have to keep adding on to this post... 
Jeremy
EDIT: Oh, and regarding #6 from Esther's above quote...
quote:6. Lack of a house of worship. In many places where there are mass baptisms, studies indicate that if a house of worship is not provided for those new believers, the likelihood for them to leave rises exponentially.
I believe I have heard that in some third world countries, being part of a church with a building is a big status symbol, etc., and so many people join the SDA church only for that reason and other similar reasons.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 14, 2005) |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 168
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 10:16 am: | |
Statistics are so addicting, Jeremy! I wish they had some that were more recent than 2003. Here are some things that jumped out at me (and I'm really going to have to limit myself here)
In 2003, 5,024 churches but 3,440 ordained ministers (and 648 licensed ministers whatever those are). So basically one out of every five churches has no pastor?
Also I noticed they started separating "dropped" and "missing" in 1998. So does that mean those "missing" are never "dropped?" Interestingly the number of missing jumped more than a third between 2002 and 2003 from 7,772 to 11,562. Would have been interesting to see what 2004 looked like. Anyways, must pull myself away! Thank you for finding this site for me, Jeremy :-)
Calculatingly,
Hannah |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 169
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 10:20 am: | |
Oh, and I don't think it's coincidental that the churches statistic was at the very top of the spreadsheet and the pastors statistic was at the very bottom. Wouldn't want people to think about comparing those!
Suspiciously,
Hannah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 843
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 11:23 am: | |
Hannah, it appears that the "Missing" persons are removed from the membership total, in the "Total Losses" line. When you click on "Dropped" it says:
quote:Dropped by Request
'Dropped' is the number of memberships dropped by individual request.
Regarding the Pastors, it is very common (in more rural areas, at least) for an SDA Pastor to have more than one church, and even for them to have to travel quite a distance, in order to pastor their 2 or more churches.
Jeremy |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:23 pm: | |
One SDA minister I know had a 3 church district, and even a 4th for a while. As tithe continues to decrease, I look for this to be more commonplace. In this conference they laid off 7 or 8 pastors and made up for the loss by adding to districts. There were no personnel cuts made at the Conference office, however.
Heretic |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 241
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 6:32 am: | |
I grew up in the rural midwest (Dakota's and WI) and of the 4 districts my father pastored from my birth until I left for college, his smallest district was 3 churches, and his largest 5. In Wi during budget crisis years, I remember there being a pastor who had 7 churches, with the furthest one 6 hours away (this was in the north). If my memory serves me correctly, he had a stroke and had to leave the conference. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 967
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 2:28 pm: | |
Okay, as I expose my ignorance...how do people "pastor" more than one church? Do they stagger service times so he can preach at multiple locations or what? B's dad had 3 churches in rural Kansas, the biggest I think held 60 people. I never understood how that worked. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 275
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 2:46 pm: | |
I can answer that question. The SDA church we left a year ago now is a part of a 2 church pastorship. The pastor preaches every other week per church, and on the off-week, a lay member or guest speaker does the sermon. That's how my husband, Ric_b, got to preach so frequently. In other situations I know of, if a pastor feels strongly about preaching each week at every one of his churches, he'll preach the sermon at 9:00ish at the first church, at 11:00 at the next church, and even in the afternoon if he has yet a third church. We actually knew a pastor who did that, and I know it was VERY exhausting for him and his family. |
Wooliee
Registered user
Username: Wooliee
Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 3:03 pm: | |
We had a pastor who would drive an hour to preach at one church, before he turned around and drove back another hour to preach at our church. I felt bad for him, because sometimes traffic would be bad and that is stressful and irritating no matter who you are! It sure isn't restful. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 854
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 3:35 pm: | |
I know of a couple of experiences where the pastor preached at the "main" (bigger town/church) most of the time, and preached at the "secondary" church maybe once a month. In another situation, the pastor had to preach a sermon early in the morning, then drive about an hour or more to his other church and try to get there just barely in time for the sermon!
In my experiences with SDA churches, it seems that the senior pastor usually did not preach too often, for some reason or another. When the senior pastor (or only pastor!) did not preach, it was usually an assistant/associate pastor or "Elder" that preached.
Jeremy |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 170
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 8:46 pm: | |
Well pastoring a church is more than giving a weekly sermon. I feel sorry for the people who get to have a pastor that lives five hours away. They don't dare try another church with a pastor that lives close by, wouldn't want to lose your salvation!
Sadly
Hannah |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1731
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:18 pm: | |
Looking back now, I can say you are so correct, Hannah. That is so sad.
Is that your little one you are holding in the photo? Is the little one a boy or a girl and how old?
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2314
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:24 pm: | |
There's also something just wrong about calling such arrangements "pastorates". A pastor nurtures and cares for the flock, not just preaches. Who looks out for the people in such situations?
I know, the head elder gets a lot of responsibility, but the people are never well-served in such a situation.
My uncle used to have 2 or 3 churches in rural Montana. His sons suffered a lot because of the all the Sabbath travel (my uncle was committed to doing his job "Right", and he took his family to 2 or 3 different churches on any given Sabbath).
Colleen |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 171
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:12 am: | |
Diana, that is my two-year-old daughter who is truly an angel in disguise! If you look closely, you can see she is holding her little toy dog that she loves with all her heart.
I have posted about her before. She is the one I was talking about when I said if the word "Sabbath" comes out of her little mouth certain in-laws are going to be in an enormous amount of trouble!
Maternally,
Hannah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 857
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:34 pm: | |
"Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." (Exodus 16:29b NASB.)
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 19, 2005) |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 599
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 1:08 pm: | |
Right Jeremy...so how did gathering on Sat. at the local synagogue evolve and then become what saves us? |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 1:10 pm: | |
The very small rural Central California SDA church that I frequented had no pastor for many many years. Seems as tho whenever the conference would send out a real SdA pastor the congreation didn't like him and thus one never stayed too long. The congreation had songbooks of Country and Western gosple songs and being hicks (and I say that with great respect because I was raised a hick and my hickness will always be part of me and in my heart)these perticular SDA's did not seem to want to use the official SDA hymnal at all. Also, one man always accompied the songs on his country gutiar and generally the SDA's at this church came to church in their best dungarees, not in fancy suits. S0, the conference pretty much left the church alone. It was nearly locally supported in regards to the ones who organized the services as well as the money part of it. Also, it was the local church people who did all the maintaince of the building and grounds. It was a very wonderful SDA church, not like these city SDA churches. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 243
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:14 am: | |
Jeremy & Pheeki...right on. This was one of the biggest things that "predestined" (to borrow the phrase from another thread) me to being willing to reinvestigating my Sabbath beliefs. I knew all to well how much work was done on the Sabbath, and the varying degrees' of "keeping" the day holy. Something I thought about greatly in the many hours spent traveling from church to church on saturdays Sadly, this very same logic doesn't work with my family. In all our discussions, Jesus made the requirements stricter for the 10 commandments(for example, do not kill became do not hate)...except for the fourth where instead of staying in our homes, we now know WHAT to do??? Sadder still, with this type of "logic", my best bets are to crawl back into my corner and let the Father heal my "wounds"...thanking Him everyday for His Sovereignty, His Rest, and His Grace.
Truly, if the Son makes you free... If only my family desired this.
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Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 110
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:01 am: | |
We were members of the Washington, NH Church many years ago. We had a pastor for the WHOLE REGION! We never, ever saw him at our church. But he did visit us at home just about every couple of weeks. We felt more nurtured there than we ever were when we were at a big church with its own pastor. We could always find someone to "preach" the sermon. In the summer we would recruit any visitor that showed up! Usually they were retired ministers or missionaries and we just asked them to tell their stories. In the winter when we couldn't get to the Church, we would meet in our home and just sing hymns and pray. We were such a small group that it was pretty casual.
I have lived all over the U.S. and one thing I learned was that every place had its own cultural interpretation of Adventism. I grew up in So. Calif. and so it came as quite a shock to me when I saw how conservative other places were. But I also learned that each place thought they had the real truth! So, it became apparent to me that there was no real "TRUTH" in the SDA Church. That made me less afraid to question the doctrines and begin to study on my own. It is so easy to be comfortable in one's own culture. The exposure to other cultures really was an eye-opener for me. I have to agree with a post on another thread that the So. Calif. Adventists are not the norm for the whole SDA Church! But none of the variations across the country have an understanding of the REAL TRUTH of the Bible. They all have some type of EGW slant, even when they think they don't! It took me a long time to understand just how EGW influences ALL of their doctrine, even the parts that sound like traditional Christianity!
I'm so glad to be free from all that!
-tisha |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 228
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 7:04 pm: | |
Why would the Bible need to address rebaptism? Once you are baptized and accepted into the family of God it is forever. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 2:44 pm: | |
Uh--good point, Violet!
Colleen |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 164
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:24 pm: | |
Okay, so over at the White Estate site they have a link to the "Connecting with Jesus" page where you can read the plea for cash for this project. Click here: www.ellenwhite.com then click on the link in the upper right.
The questions listed that are meant to motivate a healthy donation just struck me as being all about Ellen and the church rather than "Connecting with Jesus.":
quote:Do you want to help deepen the church's spirituality?
Do you want to help assure that the prophetic mission and message of the Adventist Church will be preserved and shared?
Do you want to help maintain the unique identity of the Seventh-day Adventist Church until Jesus returns?
Why not just cut the nonsense and call it "Connecting with Ellen"? It's all about preserving and maintaining the church's identity. These questions are tantamount to an admission that without Ellen they have no message, mission, identity, or purpose for even existing. They receive their "spirituality" through Ellen? How about pointing people to Christ and the Word of God for "spirituality", guys?!
The next time an SDA attempts to minimize the role of EGW in the church, all you need to do is point them to this campaign as proof of just the opposite. It shows just where the focus of church leadership truly is. Maybe if they hadn't blown such a ghastly sum keeping the Dave Dennis debacle out of court, they'd have more money for this pet project.
Heretic
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2402
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 2:46 pm: | |
Heretic, you are so right. The name "Connecting With Jesus" is another of their PR sleight-of-hand maneuvers. It's all about Ellen, and they are essentially admitting they must have her to exist.
It reminds me of the letter to the editor which ran in a recent Proclamation in which a faculty member from one of the SDA colleges advised that we try reading Desire of Ages, Christ's Object Lessons, and Steps to Christ again to "experience a close walk with God. "To throw these out is to throw Jesus out with the bath water."
It was quite shocking to me actually to read that belief in writing. To throw Ellen's classics out is to throw out Jesus.
Amazing.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 923
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 5:51 pm: | |
The name "Connecting With Jesus" implies that their members cannot connect with Jesus without Ellen's writings! The Bible is not enough for them to be able to "connect with Jesus"!
Jeremy |
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