| Author | Message | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 |
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:33 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello! I wonder if i am the only one who feels scared even coming to this site?? I am a SDA member, in good standing, lol, With a child in an SDA school. I have been studying with a nondenomination bible study for several years, and have come to find this experience an uplifting and "church-type" fellowship. I am so impressed by the christians of all denominations i have met there, and the joy that they demonstrate and possess. I am struggling mainly with the sabbath issue. I cant decide if it is in my own self interest to even consider not "keeping the sabbath". I do love sports and such on that day. And maybe it is wishful thinking on my part to think that it would be nice to not stuggle every saturday about what i can and cannot do, and then feeling so guilty when i pursue my own pleasure etc...And so the question to myself is, am I considering taking the "wide road that leads to destruction", because it is convinient and easy? I know i am not spiritually fed at my church, and in fact dread going alot of times. I have recently developed a relationship of sorts with Jesus, but I must say all this thinking and studying is making me MAD!!! Why cant all this be easy and clearcut. Why would God hide his intentions from me when I am honestly seeking. Why do I struggle with the doctrinal issues. WHy do so many disagree, and where is that voice that says clearly THIS IS THE WAY? I am soooo tired of not knowing, despite praying for clarity and peace. All i know is, when i am around other christians in my study group, I want what they have. So hello anyway, and i hope to find something here from others with a similar backgroud. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Javagirl! Welcome and YES I know exactly how you feel. I am now a former, and a non-denominational Bible study was the 'beginning of the end' of SDAism for me. I found people there who were Christlike and kind and I was so confused! I don't remember thinking they were faking it, but I remember thinking that only SDAs are supposed to have this...and as a matter of fact, I don't know ANY SDAs who DO have this type of relationship with God. It was very confusing and very lonely. I am going to throw something out there: I wonder if just maybe God IS making Himself abundantly clear to you, and could it possibly be your (our) preconceived ideas that keep you (me) in the dark. It took me three years to finally accept the fact that indeed God was calling me out of the SDA church. Even when I became comfortable that the Bible clearly teaches that the Sabbath of the Israelites is not a requirement for New Covenant Christians, it took another 6 months to make myself leave. I don't know what Bible study you're taking, but to further muddy the proverbial waters, the one I was in is of the "Old Covenant" mindset which teaches that the 10 commandments ARE still binding upon Christians and that Saturday has been changed to Sunday to fulfill the 4th command. That didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to me and so began a long journey....I have come to find so much solace in the Word of God. There is a new former adventist fellowship started by chris-a memeber on this forum- and he posted something today which I know he won't mind if I share with you. This is a great place to start reading in the Bible: "You may find it helpful to review the teaching given to the early Christians on this matter in Romans 14:1-8, Colossians 2:13-17, and Hebrews Chapters 3 & 4." The VERY best book on this subject is Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff, a former SDA minister. He answers every single conceivable question you will have and many you wouldn't have thought of. And he answers them using the Bible. You can purchase it at www.ratzlaf.com. I strongly suggest you purchase that book! It will be the best investment you make! I am so glad you came here, Javagirl. Even though without a doubt, you're in a state of confusion ( I only say this with certainty because I've been there too), God IS speaking to you. I will pray for you, Javagirl! Keep talking to us. Ask any questions. I guarantee that at least some of the people on this forum have been where you are and doubtless, have many of the answers you seek. God bless you! Patria | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 459 Registered: 6-2002 |
Welcome, Javagirl! I guess I could "theologize," "pontificate," and otherwise bore you with logic and hermeneutics about the Sabbath, but I won't. I will just say this: Anything that draws your steady gaze away from Jesus, and Him crucified is not worth arguing about. Please, listen to your heart. The Holy Spirit is ready to guide you in this. If you want to get into details, we can. Mostly, however, I hope you feel welcome here and wherever you find people of faith in the love of God through His son, Jesus. Warm welcome. Jerry | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 64 Registered: 3-2005 |
By the way, I do not have a lot of answers! But it sounds like we have been down very similar paths. If you ever want to chat, my email address is patriar@yahoo.com. Patria | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 532 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome, Javagirl. Feel free to ask questions, talk about the situations, your doubts. We have all experienced the same feelings you have expressed. I remember thinking that Jesus just couldn't be so narrow-minded that he would ban me from heaven for wearing a little lipstick (when I was 13). Jesus is not that narrow-minded. He came to be our stand-in, because we are not able to perfectly able to keep the law, but he was. He not only kept the law, he became the law for us, and as the law was nailed to the cross and died. That is why he said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all be fulfilled. Do you remember what Jesus' last words before he died? He said, "It is finished." That also mean, completed, done, accomplished. Starting in John 13 you will read the earnest way that Jesus addressed the disciples before he went to be the Holy Lamb of God on the cross. Read it all carefully through to the end of John 16. The reason Jesus was so careful to give all of these instructions to the disciples was because the whole religious thing was going to change, and change dramatically. When Jesus died, the sacrificial system was no longer needed. It had been a shadow. Another thing that went with the shadow was the system of Sabbaths, all of them. They were shadows, the substance was Jesus, the true rest from sin. He took on himself our every sin, and every sickness. He took all of that to the grave, then arose victorious over sin and death forever. There are so many studies on the Sabbath on this forum. Please take the time to read through them. These are from the bottoms of our hearts. I have had the kinds of moments you described where you were struggling with "breaking the Sabbath." Jesus is our Sabbath, and He is also God--unbreakable. All of the stuff about do do this and don't do that -- none of that is Gospel. Jesus has done it all. You and I need to hang onto the fact that his blood has covered our sins completely, obliterating every one of them. This is not presumption, it is fact. With the faith of Jesus as our strength we will be able to go from here to eternity. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 785 Registered: 10-2004  |
Javagirl, welcome to the forum! We're glad you've joined us. I know how you feel about "not knowing," especially with the Sabbath. In fact, at one point I decided I would probably NEVER be able to know for sure what the truth is about the Sabbath. It seemed too unclear to me. But soon after that, it all became abundantly clear to me. I pray the same will happen for you. I can recommend some online resources (some that helped me, etc.) if you want. I also second Patria's recommendation of Sabbath in Christ. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2175 Registered: 12-2003  |
Javagirl, welcome to the forum! I understand your feeling of confusion and longing--and I concur with Patria who said that God IS speaking clearly to you; it's just probably inconceivable at this point to imagine that God could speak contrary to what we learned was absolute truth. One thing I've reminded myself over and over as I've experienced this kind of uncertainty: God is not a God of confusion. Confusion comes from darkness. In Jesus, the light of truth reveals all the twisted logic and out-of-context Scripture that I learned to bolster what I believed to be truth. You can trust Jesus. If you really want to know Him and His will, He will make it clear. And the truth is found in Scripture. I know many people whose first introduction to the idea that Adventism might not square with the Bible came in non-denominational Bible studies. It's quite amazing how God has been revealing the same truths and insights from the Bible to Christians for over 2,000 years. I also support Patria's recommendation of Sabbath in Christ. It's a wonderful, helpful book, and it's a systematic Bible study, not merely someone's logic or theories. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you all for your responses. I am trying to read it all through tears. What happens to me is I read something, ie "In the Grip of Grace" an awesome book that has oppened my eyes, and it seems so right, then doubts and scriptures pop into my head and I am afraid I am being decieved. It is especially hard with the responsibility of a child, who is quite spiritually minded (not religious) and asks alot of questions. I would not want to lead him astray. He has had a great experience in adventist school, with loving, dedicated teachers. He proudly changes into his baseball uniform after church, and leaves the parking lot with a promise to the pastor that he will give him all the details of the game! (my husband is not adventist) My pastor recently left to retire, and I miss him dearly. He is the one that told me that if i had questions about EGW, that i should just study the bible on my own, and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance, and that everything that i needed was in the Bible! Well i see I am rambling, but alot has been pent up in my for awhile. Im glad someone responded, because one of my "big picture" thoughts has been, why isnt the adventist church growing in the United States. And after i posted, and there was no response for a couple hours, I wondered, if these experiences i am reading about are true, why arent more people coming to the same conclusions. I will read some of the passages that were suggested to me, and order a couple of books, and pray, and go from there. And thank you for the very personal responses. | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2005 |
Javagirl, I am in much the same boat as you, still in Adventism because that is my heritage and so much of my life is wrapped up in the whole cultural thing. The only thing we have is a faithful Saviour who has promised to never leave us or forsake us. Whenever I feel like shouting at someone in church for another EGW quote, I just remember that. Many on this site have said that remaining SDA and sitting in the pew every SABBATH would be the easiest way. Sometimes I kick myself for ever researching EGW at all, or the Investigative Judgment. I was so content and satisfied. Oh Well. The disciples were probably pretty content and satisfied before Jesus came and turned their world upside down so consider yourself in pretty good company. I wish you the best in your journey. | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 692 Registered: 7-2000 |
Javagirl, we left the denomination and began attending a local Christian church BEFORE the sabbath issue was settled in our minds. Our thinking was what was presented above. That question was taking our minds off of Jesus and robbing us of the joy of our salvation. So I prayed about it, ran through all the questions one last time, laid them all before the Lord and told him I was leaving it in His hands....when He was ready to explain it, I was ready to listen. See, I finally realized that if I was interested in something, asking the questions, looking for the answers, taking the time to listen, and still not understanding, then the only explanation had to be that GOD was not ready to answer. After all, He is GOD, He has no trouble communicating to us what He wants us to know. I have come to realize the past few years that we Christians can really get ourselves bogged down. The Lord is most willing to explain things to us. BUT, it is in HIS time, not ours. As I read your post it struck me that maybe you are in that place of looking in the wrong direction....looking for an answer to a question that He just isn't wanting to discuss with you right now. Have you considered that possibly the only issue He wants to address right now is relationship with Him...just plain being in love with Him as He is with you already? Anyway, I laid down my questions about the sabbath. Whenever they would raise themselves, I would set them aside, give them back to the Lord, and deliberately turn my attention elsewhere. Suddenly, several months later, just out of the blue I awoke one morning with a start KNOWING that today was the day I would have my answer. Immediately the name of a website popped into my head...something I had seen 2 years before! and flatly rejected looking at. I went back, randomly choose a page to begin reading and almost immediately the message leapt off the computer "JESUS is the sabbath!" And I immediately had peace. You made a very important observation up there: it IS the Christian denominations that are growing, where people are changing, they are falling in love with Jesus, and have a real vitality. And there has to be an explanation, doesn't there? Those Christians you have meet, are they happy because of a list of rules they follow, or are they happy because of their relationship with the Savior? Think about it, Javagirl. You may only have a small bit of knowledge right now about the history of the Christian church. But from what you know, when God wants to communicate a truth with his people, does He have trouble doing it? Isn't He very effective with communicating truth to different people at different times in different locations? And doesn't that truth take hold and spread like wildfire around the globe? That is NOT what has happened with the supposed "truth" of a 7th day sabbath. Javagirl, many Christians through the years HAVE explored the question of "do we need to keep the sabbath" and rejected it flatly as unscriptural. And you know, the Lord has not rejected them....interesting isn't it? He is still blessing them, they are still in intimate relationship with Him. Doesn't it make sense to you that IF the sabbath were truly a necessity the Lord God, the one who was able to speak the universe into being, would have long before now seen to it that this thing that is going to be "the" mark of true Christianity would have been discovered in many many Christian denominations and would be growing? Really, what would it say about God himself if "the" truth that would keep people from receiving the mark of the beast is still only know by a fraction of a handful of people around the world? That's an awfully small, weak God isn't it? | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2005 |
Wow Lydell, Your posting really helped me this morning. Last night I was talking to my mom, and she prayed before we hung up. She prayed about keeping the sabbath the way God intended it. I felt like the worst sinner, because of all that I have been going through with questioning the Adventist church and the sabbath. I still don't understand what God wants me to do about everything, so I am going to do as you suggested and just put it down for now and focus on my relationship with Him. Javagirl, I know exactly what you are going through right now as I am going through the same thoughts and feelings. I will be praying for you. Julie | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2005 |
Well DT, you made me laugh anyway and it was nice. Good points there. and thank you to the rest for you responses. Lydell, that makes sense to me, because in the last 6 months or so in researching all this, my spiritual life has bankrupted. And the idea of relationship with Jesus is intimidating now, and it wasnt before. I feel so unworthy and shamed. I think about just forgetting the whole God thing, and living a life "going about doing good." And I go back to the idea that God has made his intentions clear with a command to Remember the Sabbath, and i just cant or dont want to do it. And maybe when His time is right he will just let all those sincere Christians know that the Sabbath is important to Him. I am not trying to be argumentative here, I am just thinking outloud I guess. And i did feel some real peace this morning, so thank you to all who prayed for that. And prayers are with you too Julie, and the rest, although prayer is hard for me right now. Are there any groups or discussions from this forum in the Atlanta area? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1647 Registered: 3-2004  |
Welcome to FAF Woolie and Javagirl, You two are in the right place for questions you may have. Many have gone through the same feelings, uncertainties, insecurity that you are going through. But, the way I see is is that God has led you this far and He will clear everything up as you develop your relationship with Him, by readying and studying your Bible. Jesus died, while we were still sinners, that we can have a relationship with Him and eternal life. He does not lie. He did not bring you this far to drop you. He holds you firmly in His awesome hands and will not let go of you. When you start thinking of the commandment to keep the Sabbath, remember all that system was finished at the cross. Javagirl, you say your are intimidated with a relationship with Jesus. Remember that you are a child of God and God did not make junk. God, fill Javagirl and Woolsie with you Holy Spirit and teach them your truth from the Bible. Help them to see the truth, so they will know what is error. Fill them with your peace. Thank you for doing this. You are truly awesome, Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 786 Registered: 10-2004 |
Javagirl, you wrote... "And I go back to the idea that God has made his intentions clear with a command to Remember the Sabbath, and i just cant or dont want to do it." You need to remember that God commanded that to the Jews (Israel) only. He never commanded it to the Gentiles. In fact, God said that the Sabbath was a special sign just between Him and Israel, and that it was to set apart Israel from the Gentiles (who were not supposed to keep the Sabbath).
Also, in Ezekiel, God says:
So that passage tells us when God gave the Sabbath (after He "took [Israel] out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness"). It also tells us to whom God gave the Sabbath: "them"--"Israel." The Gentiles could not have been allowed to keep the Sabbath, or else it couldn't be a special sign between God and Israel, to separate Israel from the Gentiles.  And in the New Testament we are told:
So, now, Jesus has broken down and abolished the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles, which is the Law. One of the most major things that set apart/separated the Jews from the Gentiles was the Sabbath day, as shown above. But now that Jesus has abolished the dividing/separating wall of the Law, there is no more Sabbath day to separate the Jews from the Gentiles. The Sabbath day was merely a shadow pointing forward to Messiah (Christ), who is the Substance (Colossians 2:16-17). Now, instead of "remember the Sabbath day" Jesus has given all of us (Jews and Gentiles) a new "remembrance sign." Jesus says of the Lord's Supper, "Do this in remembrance of ME"! We are now to remember JESUS, who IS the Substance of the Sabbath, rather than the sabbath day which was only a shadow of HIM! (Colossians 2:16-17). The Sabbath day was the sign of the Old Covenant between God and Israel. That Covenant is now obsolete and has disappeared (Hebrews 8) and is to be cast out (Galatians 4; see also 2 Corinthians 3). The Lord's Supper is the sign of the NEW Covenant. Jesus said, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." (1 Corinthians 11:25b NASB.) There are some very helpful resources at http://www.sdaoutreach.org/ especially at the "audio messages" section. God bless you, Javagirl, as you seek HIS truth. Jeremy P.S. Sometimes the forum is pretty slow and inactive over the weekend, so don't be surprised if responses on this forum are a bit slow the next couple of days. (Message edited by jeremy on June 25, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2178 Registered: 12-2003 |
Javagirl and Julie, I am praying for you. Remember that the Bible is the place to go for knoweldge, insight, and the truth about Jesus. Ask Him to direct your reading, and surrender your heart to Him for comfort, peace, and certainty. He will not fail you! Collen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 157 Registered: 6-2001 |
It is so interesting to me that Adventists think formers leave the church because it is "too hard" to keep the Sabbath. That is a refrain my husband hears from his family all the time. He left the SDA church before he left the Sabbath, and he said letting go of the Sabbath was one of the hardest things he has ever done. Paradoxically, Hannah P.S. Here is a question for you Javagirl. When slaves in the New Testament became Christians were they supposed to keep the Sabbath? If New Testament Christians were all supposed to keep the Sabbath you think this would have come up somewhere in one of the letters to the church. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2004 |
Javagirl, welcome and I add to the others that I feel and felt similar feelings. I did however get much more out of "Cultic Doctrine" than the "Sabbath in Christ" only because that was so in depth, and the other one seemed to speak to me more generally instead of focusing on just the Sabbath issue. It was great about the absurdity of the IJ. Anyway, I wanted to ask if you liked coffee!! Sounds like you might with your screen-name. I love coffee and did secretly even when I was a practicing adventist. My mother even asked my sister to pray for me because she knew I liked it and was afraid that I would not go to heaven if I indulged in coffee. Things like that and the jewelry issue just never rang true with me. It was so petty that I never thought that could be an issue for salvation, yet EGW said it was. So continue studying. There is a website that I really poured over when I first came aboard. It is "What Seventh Day Adventists Need to know". and I read so much and got so much historical insight. I don't know how to paste it and put it here. I tried but it didn't work. But search for that and I think you will find it. Bb | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2004 |
I also wanted to say that I starting studying in order to defend the "truth" as I was told it was because I was married to a non-adventist and I thought someday I could convince my in-laws of the SDA's. Instead I got so interested in really finding out the truth myself. I went to Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) around that time, and heard a sermon another time on Cults, and it was God leading me every step of the way. I still remember the fear that I had even getting online on a website that was against SDA's. I thought the devil was trying to deceive me, but I do not believe that at all. God does not want us not to ask questions and search for truth, and be afraid of leaving a certain denomination. I think that our "gut feeling" that something is wrong is a direction from the Holy Spirit! Bb | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 787 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bb, is this is the web site that you referred to? What Seventh-day Adventists NEED to Know Jeremy | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, that's the one, lot's of good material, don't you think? |
