| Author | Message | ||
| Grug06 Registered user Username: Grug06 Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 |
My name is Trev, I am 20 years old and I am currently undertaking baptismal study with a SDA pastor. I was raised Catholic but did not really practise it. Since I was 12 I have been involved in the SDA church with various things and for a while now I have wanted to get baptised. So two months ago I made the choice to do it. After reader an article "From Law to Grace" I had many questioned. So I thought I might as well write my thoughts down and see what kind of response it get. I also want to talk to my pastor about these but I would love your viewpoints on a few things and I would be greatly obliged for any response. I believe that EGW was a very spiritual woman but I have always been a bit Sceptical of some of her teachings and claims. I have only recently started to get a full understanding of GRACE And how incredible it is. I feel that understanding that and understanding how important faith is is a major key to my spiritual growth. I thought you might have some thoughts on that. I try to study and read my bible daily and I am being so blessed each time I do. Each time I come to understand more and more about Christ and how amazing his life on earth was and how much of a sacrifice he made on the cross for you and me. It blows my mind and I am in awe of God. When I get baptised I feel I am making a public statement about my faith and I Realise I am not suppose to be perfect and I can take all my problems with me to the water and although I will be cleansed and washed of my sins I cannot expect to be perfect because we are all covered with the disease of sin and it is God's love and grace that helps us fight that. I am just curious to what you think of my thoughts and reasons behind my baptism, and what the SDA church thinks of this. Is it ok for me to go into the baptism with the idea that I am getting baptised a "Christian" or does the church expect me to believe I am being baptised a "SDA Christian" I believe the fundamentals Of Adventism, but far greater than that I believe that Christ died to set me free, he is my savour and I should spend my life trying to glorify his name. When I get baptised I want that to be the focus of why I am doing it. Not that I am becoming a SDA. Iím not sure if this will make sense to you but a pray that God will help you understand what I am trying to say. Your article provoked many questioned and I felt compelled to ask them and hear your thoughts about my choices and beliefs. God Bless Trev | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 517 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Trev,I can understand your desire to be baptised into the Church of Jesus Christ because of your love for Him and for the fact that He has asked you to follow Him. Baptism is the opening step into the Church, the entry mark, just as circumcision was the entry symbol of entering into Judaism. The Christian remembrance sign is the Table of the Lord, or Communion. I would, however, caution you about being baptised in a SDA church because you would be baptised as a SDA-Christian, with the SDA part coming first and, to them, being the more important part. It would be better to be baptised non-denominationally, thus allowing you to fully understand that you are being baptised into Christ only. That is my humble opinion. In the SDA church you will be taught (or most likely have already been taught) that the 10 commandments are still fully in force, even though Jesus said on the cross that all had been accomplished ("It is finished."). It was he who said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law and the prophets until all be accomplished, then he accomplished all of the requirements of the law for you and me because we are so infected by sin that it is in our very DNA and therefore we are incapable of fully keeping the requirements of the law. Even if you were able to keep the law from this moment forward, you would still have your past failure to keep it like an albatross around your neck. That is why Jesus took on human form, kept the law perfectly, then offered his perfection on the cross, so that you and I can have, as a gift, not an earned wage, salvation from the requirements of the law (sin=death). The SDA will tell you that faith + works = salvation. The true Christian equation is faith + salvation = works. I know it is subtle to get, but the first equation will lead to doubt and bondage, the second will lead to freedom in Christ. Please think that over carefully. Your sister in Christ, and I am praying for you. Belva | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dear Trev: Thank you for coming to the forum! You are obviously a person after God's own heart and you are precious to Him. Before we can fully answer the question, I think it would be good (if you're comfortable sharing) to know why you want to be baptized in the SDA church. Is it particularly because you've been studying with an SDA pastor? Or is there more? Please know I am only asking with a loving heart and want to as fully as possibly, comprehend where you're coming from. In Christ, Patria | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1626 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dear Trev, It is so good to see a young person seek Christ. Before you are baptized in the SDA church, pray about it and answer the questions, to yourself that Patriar asked. Why is it you want to be baptized in the SDA church? Read the books of Hebrews, Galatians, and John while you pray about what God wants you to do. What has the SDA told you about EGWhite? Like Patriar I ask this in love as I want only what is best for you. You are a child of God and He has a plan for you. So pray, pray, pray and pray some more before doing anything else. God will let you know what He wants you to do. He is so awesome in how He works in our lives. Diana | ||
| Grug06 Registered user Username: Grug06 Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you for your thoughts, prayers and comments. In answer to Patriar question, i feel i chose to be baptised SDA because i was brought to Jesus Christ through the SDA friends and i guess its all i have known. I pray that God will give me answers to the many questions i am pondering. I want to know the truth, bring others to God and glorify him in everything i do. I didnt know you could be baptised non-denominationally, does the SDA church do that or do i need to get baptised somewhere else. Also i was wondering how important baptism is? Is it what God asks of us? I am very lucky that my pastor is very blessed man of God and he knows my situation and is very understanding. Just wondering if the SDA teachings are the same world wide? In response to "The SDA will tell you that faith + works = salvation." from Belva. I have had 2 lessons on salvation and i have been so blessed that my pastor is teaching me the truth. I agree that Faith = salvation and no amount of works can save you. This is what he has been teaching me. Thank you for re-assuring that. Gods grace is amazing when you think that we are saved by faith and the moment you commit your life to God your name is in the book. But you always have a choice! Thank you for your many comments. God Bless Trev | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1629 Registered: 3-2004 |
Trev, Go to the links you find on this web site and find out what SDAs really believe. Each of us left the SDA church for a reason, mainly doctrinal. The SDA beliefs are not supported by the Bible. Read our stories here. Some SDA pastors are preaching the Bible truths, such as the one you are studying with. But that is not true with all of them. I would not get baptized into the SDA church. I would ask that you find a Christian pastor in your town and study with him/her also. Pray and pray some more. I will pray for you also. God, be with Trev, as he studies your word. Show him your truths and where and what you want from him. Fill him with your Holy Spirit. I was baptized into the body of Christ last summer and that is the way I would want it for any one, not being baptized a Baptist/SDA/any other denomination. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Trev: Thanks for sharing! I think your heart for God is amazing! Yes you can be baptized into a non-denominational or inter-denominational church. Some do immersion baptisms, others do sprinkling. If you're like me, then you prefer immersion. If that's the case, you'll just have to do some research as to what churches in your area do baptism by immersion. As to whether baptism is important. There are many varieties of understanding regarding baptism within the body of Christ. I personally believe that it is not a requirement for salvation, as that would make salvation something I can do or attain by my own merit. I also believe it is an essential component because you will be publicly declaring that you are a child of God. Jesus exhorts us to be baptized in Mark 16:9. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Note that He didn't add "whoever is not baptized will be condemned"). But He includes it initally with "belief". I personally believe that it is a fruit of being saved. (Some people would probably disagree, but that's how I see it.) It sounds like your pastor has given you some very helpful guidance and love. I would along with Diana, implore you to pray pray pray and pray some more. There is one thing you may already be aware of, but you will have to sign a certificate stating that you believe EGW to be an authoritative source of truth if you want to be baptized into the SDA church. If you have any questions about that specifically, there is a whole lot of reliable information as to the problems with EGW. For me EGW was the initial reason for questioning the SDA church and its doctrines. If you have heard that people don't really believe her anymore or that the church doesn't really endorse her any longer, look at this web page and specifically #17 http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html. Many people within the SDA church, including some pastors and other personnel believe they don't really hold to the ideas and ideals of EGW. I was in a church whose pastor was very "liberal" in the sense of EGW. He teaches grace and salvation by faith. However, when you pin him down, he believes the Sabbath to be of salvific importance. Also, it has even been said by some inside the SDA church, that EGW and her teachings, specifically 1844 and the Investigative Judgment are the cornerstone of the church. Without it, the SDA church would fall. Whatever you do Trev, you are already a child of God. And Praise HIM! You have come to such a mature understanding of His Grace and what He did on the Cross. Please continue to ask any questions you have. There are many on this web site who have an abundance of insights and information far beyond my capacity. They are probably busy with church activities today, but I expect you'll be hearing from them. I look forward to "talking" more with you! Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana: I certainly didn't mean to imply that you don't have wonderful information and insights!!! I just read my post and that looks terrible! I was only trying to say that there are others besides you and I who will be responding. Please forgive my lack of thought! Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana: I certainly didn't mean to imply that you don't have wonderful information and insights!!! I just read my post and that looks terrible! I was only trying to say that there are others besides you and I who will undoubtedly be responding. Please forgive my lack of thought! Patria | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 768 Registered: 10-2004  |
Trev, welcome to the forum. You and me are close in age. In almost all cases, an SDA pastor will not baptize a person as a simple sign of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, but will only baptize someone into the SDA church and you have to become a member of the SDA church in order for them to baptize you. Most non-denominational churches, etc. (even Baptist churches), will baptize you as a sign of allegiance to Jesus Christ period, and not any certain church, without you ever intending to join their particular church even. It shouldn't ever have anything to do with membership in any church or any acceptance of certain "fundamental beliefs" or anything like that. It should only be because you believe in Jesus Christ's finished atonement for your salvation. Here is an example of how baptism was in the New Testament church:
Notice that Philip didn't give the man weeks of doctrinal classes before his baptism--he ONLY preached JESUS to him, the man believed and was immediately baptized. And then what happened? Did Philip stay with the man to teach him all of the doctrines he needed to be convinced of? No, he left him and let the Holy Spirit guide him into all truth as Jesus said He would!  You wrote: "Gods grace is amazing when you think that we are saved by faith and the moment you commit your life to God your name is in the book." Amen. But did you know that the SDA prophet Ellen G. White (whose writings the SDAs say in their official 27 Fundamental beliefs are "a continuing and authoritative source of truth") writes that we cannot know, feel, or say that we are saved??? She says that we must "earn" eternal life with hard effort and good works added to our faith. (I can give you some exact quotes from her published writings if you want.) This is a false gospel and makes her a false prophet. That is why so many of us have left the SDA church. Jesus says to beware of false prophets and that many false prophets would come with great signs and wonders and deceive many. The Bible also commands us to test the prophets to see whether they are true or false. One more thing about baptism: it is important to remember that baptism does not save us. It plays no part in our salvation. It is only a sign, a symbol of my dying and being buried with Christ Jesus, and being resurrected with Him. It is a symbol of being born again--of the Holy Spirit regenerating my spirit to eternal life. "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" "'That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'" (John 3:3, 6 NASB.) Also, Titus 3:4-7 (NASB) says: "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness [Such as baptism, etc.], but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." God bless you as you follow His leading, Jeremy | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 521 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Trev, I just wanted to remind you one more time that baptism is the Christian's entry into fellowship with other Christians. In Judaism the entry sign was restricted to the males and was circumcision. The remembrance sign in Judaism is the Sabbath. In Christianity, per the Savior's own statement: "This do in remembrance of me" is communion. When you are baptised you are availing yourself of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood. That is major. You will be entering into the New Covenant, so no matter where you chose to be baptised, always remember that you are a Child of God, covered by the blood of Jesus, and your salvation is through Jesus only, and is secure. Nobody, and no thing can take it from you. Never let anyone tell you that you cannot say that you have been saved, when scripture says "by His stripes you were (past tense) healed." Your healing from sin is secure, but you won't actually fully see/experience that healing until Jesus returns for his church. I'm expressing my concerns in these areas because those were the areas of Adventism that created so much insecurity and doubt for me. I was afraid, even though I wanted so much to be a part of the people of God, and I loved Jesus, at least as much as I understood about him. I was taught that I could never claim the salvation that Jesus died to give to me. I now know that he wants me to revel in His Grace, His Faith, His Love, and I do. There is nothing you or I can or have done that will qualify us for eternity. All of that has been done for us by Jesus at the cross, and confirmed when he rose victorious over the grave. The first covenant was put in place to point people forward to Jesus. It was a shadow whose substance was Jesus. The new covenant is vibrant with life and love, because it has substance, it is fully about Jesus, and filled up with, and confirmed by the precious blood of Jesus. You were called to covenant relationship by Jesus, paid for by Jesus, and have your salvation and eternal hopes firmly based in Jesus only. Nothing of self--all of Jesus. When you look for a church family to worship with, be sure that this is their view of salvation. You are so young, and I'm so proud of you that you're clear about your desire to become a part of the family of God. Never let anyone take your freedom in Jesus Christ away from you. Your sister in Christ, Belva | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2005 |
Hi Trev, Two years ago, my then 16 year old was baptised in an SDA church. She requested that she NOT be voted into church membership, however, and the pastor agreed to that. After the baptism, when they called all the "candidates" up front so that the members could be voted in - my daughter just stayed in her seat and that was that. Of course, we had a family discussion about this prior to the baptism and she understood that she was making a stand for Jesus Christ as Lord of her life. But she was able to see the distinction between that and church membership. I am thankful that the pastor did not turn her away from making a commitment because of that. From what you have said of the pastor you are studying with - perhaps he would be just as open to the idea with you. I don't know. I would just hate to see you be squelched in your desire to declare your faith in Christ. Another idea, depending on where you live - is to have your baptism in an outdoor environment - so that your public statement is more generic - and less tied to a particular denomination. What Jeremy said is also true in many SDA churches, so it will depend on the pastor. And I do feel strongly that you look further into the "27 Fundamental Beliefs" of the SDA church and how they actually fit with what the Bible says before you take the step to become an official member. You will be in our thoughts and prayers as you ponder these thoughts and continue in your spiritual journey. Blessings to you! lindylou | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2003  |
Lindylou, I appreciate your gentle spirit and like you I have a pastor where it is not required to be voted in because of baptism. Having said that I know it is the common way things are done.  richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2151 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hi, Trev--welcome to the forum! We're glad to have you here! I totally agree with all the posts above mine. Since you were raised Catholic, it's not surprising that many things about Adventism would feel somewhat familiar, including the idea that baptism means becoming a member of a church. Both the Catholics and the Adventists see baptism not "just" as a statement of belief in Jesus but as an entry into the denomination. In fact, if a person who has previously been baptized by immerson in another church becomes Adventist, the Adventist church requires them to be re-baptized into the Adventist church rather than viewing their initial baptism as a life-long statement of belonging to Christ. (There may be a few exceptions among Adventist churches that are more liberal--Richard's church may not require re-baptism locally--but the corporate church DOES require it.) Pray and pray, and stay focussed in the Bible. I encourage you as well to read the stories posted on this site and also to visit www.sdaoutreach.org and www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.org and www.ellenwhite.org to get more information about Adventism before joining the church. You clearly have a heart for Jesus, and He is obviously teaching you through His word. It's a wonderful thing that your pastor is teaching you salvation by grace; if pressed, however, he would likely reveal that he views the Sabbath as essential if one is to be saved, and he would likely admit to believing in the authentic prophetic gift of Ellen White as a continuing source of doctrine and teaching. While many Adventist claim that they no longer believe the Adventist distinctives, still they believe in the church and a distinctly non-Biblical interpretation of Scripture. In order to understand the Old Testament, one must interpret it in light of the New Testament. This principle of Biblical interpretation is widely accepted among Christianity and is based on statements such as Hebrews 1:2 which says that Jesus is the revelation of God for the last days. I'll also be praying for you, and please feel free to ask anything you wish on this forum. Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 690 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome Trev. You said above "When I get baptised I feel I am making a public statement about my faith and I Realise I am not suppose to be perfect and I can take all my problems with me to the water and although I will be cleansed and washed of my sins I cannot expect to be perfect because we are all covered with the disease of sin and it is God's love and grace that helps us fight that." Trev, the teachings of Ellen White run contrary to what you have just said. She taught that you must become perfect before you can be saved. "To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor." Testimonies, Vol. 4,p.28. "To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. ...God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe." Review and Herald, September 27, 1906, p.8. Hopefully, from your own study, you have already come to know that the scriptures tell us something very different, "because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." Eph. 2.4-5 and "The blood of Jesus, his son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sis, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have no sin, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. " I John 1.8-9 We cannot purify ourselves. Trev, baptism does not cleanse and wash you of your sins, Jesus does. And He does it at the moment of your acceptance of His gift of salvation, not at some point later. Check out I Cor. 6.11-13. You have already been washed, sanctified, and justified. You can't add to Christ perfect work on your behalf. Ellen White, through the SDA teachings, declare "Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved." Christ's Object Lessons, p.155 The scriptures however tell us repeatedly that after accepting Christ, we already have salvation, are already adopted, can know that we are saved, can know that we already have eternal life. For instance, take a look at I John 5.11-13 The teachings of Ellen White cannot be separated from the local congregation of SDA's there, or it's pastor. By being baptized in an SDA church they will consider you to be SDA. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2004 |
Hi Trev, Thanks for your post. I apologize that I'm getting in on this discussion a bit late. I'm thrilled that you are beginning to gain an understanding of God's grace. It truly IS amazing!! God loves you and me despite of who we are. As you move forward in gaining an understanding of Adventism, you will undoubtedly be taught that Christ is interested in you because, if you are able to reach a point where there is no sin in your life, you will vindicate God--you will show through your sinlessness that He is just and fair. This is a doctrine that is spelled out in Ellen White's book, The Great Controversy. As you begin to hear about this doctrine, ask yourself whether it is indicative of your understanding of grace. Does Christ want you because your behavior can vindicate Him? Does the Bible teach that your behavior can vindicate God? Or, does God want you simply because He loves you, simply because He wants you to be with Him? Is He concerned with your perfection, or is He simply interested in you coming to Him? Does Adventism teach salvation by works, or does Adventism teach salvation by faith? These are important questions. As you move toward a decision, I would encourage you to look for answers to these questions. Trev, God really, REALLY loves you. He is not interested in your perfection. He is only interested in you. Your behavior is not a big test of loyalty. Sadly, the Bible indicates that all of us have sinned and that even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags. No, our "goodness" will never be good enough. But we have the privilege of growing in a relationship with the One who IS good enough. His sacrifice covered all of our debts. It is NOW our privilege simply to come to Him. Seek a relationship with Christ first and, through this relationship, His Spirit will teach you everything that you need to know. tdf | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2004 |
Trev, A quick "chime in" on my part. My wife back in 1994 was "baptised" into Christ in an SDA church. After a year plus, the pastor "finally broke down" and baptised her "into Christ." She made it VERY CLEAR that she did not want to be baptised into the SDA church. (At the time, I was a member of the church and so she wanted to publicly show her decision for Christ, et al.) After some back-and-forth discussions, the pastor finally agreed...he was indeed "taking a chance" and in his own way, taking a step of faith. Scriptures do not direct us to be baptised into any specific fellowship or denomination...rather, we are merely baptised INTO HIM. Where that is done is not as important as if it is done...so... In answer to some of your questions, continue to discuss these matters with your pastor, inform him that you want Jesus and Jesus alone. I was baptised "into Christ/the SDA church" for the 3rd time in 1990. I have since removed myself from the SDA "books" for reasons too many to mention...Jeremy's post might sum it up! Let me also commend you on your "walk" at such a "young" age. At times I feel as if I am still in my twenties (43!0 - and it is refreshing to see young people turn to HIM. I am a school (public) teacher and see so much hurt and need in young people's lives...it makes me feel better knowing there are "success stories" like yours! God Bless ya, Eric | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 850 Registered: 7-2003  |
Welcome Trev! Trev, as I read your first post it struck me that you are truly a man after God's own heart. It seems clear to me from your words that you genuinely love Christ, understand the riches of His Grace, want to honor and serve Him in all that you do, and are truly seeking for an ever deeper understanding of His Truth. Trev, I hope you won't be offended if I speak in a relatively unguarded open way. This is what I believe with all my heart: Because you are passionate for God and because of the work the Spirit is doing in your life, you will not remain an Adventist. Even if, at this time, you decide to submit to an Adventist baptism and sign the vows, I believe that as a sincere person seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus you will eventually leave Adventism as a matter of conscience. When you do leave, it will be a painful, hard experience and you will likely face much shunning, but you will also discover many Christians waiting to welcome you with open arms into the Body of Christ. Based on what I read in your posts, I have no doubt that that day will come. You are a child of God because of your faith in Christ and as a child of God you belong to the Light. It is my prayer that you will avoid this detour into darkness or at least that your detour will be short. May Jesus Christ richly bless you with His wisdom and knowledge. May you have the very mind of Christ as you contemplate this fork in the road. May the Holy Spirit guide your every step and open your spirit and mind to Godís leading. Your brother in Christ, Chris Lee Lincoln, NE | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1633 Registered: 3-2004 |
Patriar, No offense taken. I read you post with an open mind and did not find anything offensive it it for me. So, do not concern yourself. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2004 |
Trev, one of Tisha's posts on another thread reminded me that I should probably add that SDAs usually have different definitions for common Christian terms, etc. Even if your pastor says that salvation is by faith, he may have a different definition of faith ("a faith that works" or a "working faith"--they'll say all kinds of things!), or he may be using the word "saved" to mean "conversion" which SDAs don't actually think is "saved" but only a first step towards eternal life/salvation. Like Colleen said, if pressed, he would probably have to admit that he believes that you have to keep the Sabbath (and other "rules") to be saved, especially if you've "known the truth." Jeremy |
