| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 763 Registered: 10-2004  |
Greg, I never said that we should witness to SDAs by telling them that their religion is satanic or demonic. I've never even implied that. The word satanic came up in this discussion when we were trying to define the Adventist church and whether it was part of the body of Christ, or a cult, etc. It had nothing to do with witnessing to SDAs. Jeremy | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 120 Registered: 2-2005 |
What is the intended purpose of this site? Is it to witness to questioning SDA's or is it to be a support group for formers? To me, it seems clear that it serves both purposes. But at times, it seems be more of the latter, and that's fine, but I think it's important to keep in mind that there are potentially scores of people from around the globe, all in varying stages of Adventism, who are perusing this site. Some if not many of these folks are current members of the SDA church and are early in their journey (hopefully) out of Adventism. Terms such as "Adventist cult", "demonic", and "satanic" have been bandied about more frequently of late on many threads here. It seems like some just beginning their search may read this and dismiss the posters here as merely out to trash anything and everything SDA with a "we're right, they're wrong" attitude. And while we may be right, we've all seen the effects of this sort of thing by our good pals Colporteur and Walk over at the RS site. Remember Diane who was so turned off by their words and instead impressed with the gentleness shown by the formers that it put her on a more direct path out of the SDA church (again, hopefully)? She found their (our) brand of religion more appealing because of the joy, peace, and kindness -- the gifts of the Spirit, basically -- that was being demonstrated by the formers. She had harsh words for the dynamic duo and their ilk. I've said it before that I'm not a theologian or as well versed in scripture as probably most of the members here, but I was wondering about something. Didn't Paul adjust his tone according to his audience? Yes, he was quite strong in his words in the letter to the Galatians, a church that he had nurtured, who knew him well, and who he likewise knew well. But then in Romans his tone was much softer. He didn't personally know these Christians nor did they know him. He'd felt a bond with them, because they were brothers and sisters in Christ, but had never even been to Rome at that point. I don't know, maybe this is a lame analogy, but if this site was Paul who would his audience be, the Romans or the Galatians? I'm not intending to advocate that we go easy on the SDA church, here. Please. Was Paul going easy on the Law in Romans? Instead, I'm merely proposing that it may serve one of the key purposes of this site well to use certain words or phrases a little less often that may potentially turn off certain segments of those we are attempting to reach. For whatever it's worth, there's my $0.02. Heretic (Message edited by Heretic on June 18, 2005) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 764 Registered: 10-2004 |
I have pondered whether it might be a good idea to have a certain section of the forum public and more targeted towards SDAs, and have another section private (only accessible to members of the forum) where we can have other discussions, like the one Stan, Greg and I were having on this thread, and also where people can vent, etc., etc. I don't know if this is plausible--it's just a thought. Regarding Romans, I don't know if Paul had too much of a different tone. Remember, the folks on RevivalSermons were more offended by Romans and called Romans 7 "obscene," because of what it says about the Law. Jeremy | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2005 |
Jeremy, I see your point about Romans. However, he didn't use words like "bewitched" or call anyone "foolish" there either, very strong language indeed. I based some of my comments on stuff I read by people like Ratzlaff and Greg Taylor and on a couple of Mark Martin's remarks. But, hey, I could be wrong -- I don't always have to be right.  Having a "member's only" area is a great idea! But, yeah, I'm not sure how the logistics of that would work out. Seems worth looking into. Heretic | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2004  |
Personally I wouldn't be in favor of a private or members only area. We should have no reason to be wary of the light. If we aren't comfortable with what we are posting in a public forum, perhaps it doesn't need to be posted at all. Beside the existence of a members only area gives the appearance that we formers have something to hide from everyone else. Just that appearance is probably worse than any comments that have been posted. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 123 Registered: 2-2005 |
Ric, After reading your above post, I think you're right in your assessment. And the other thing that I thought of later was that it would most likely be ineffective in it's purpose, anyhow. It's not difficult to become a member of the forum (which is a good thing) so truly inquisitive folks would still be able to lurk with just a little bit more effort. Heretic | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 766 Registered: 10-2004 |
I tend to agree with Ric's post also, although with certain forum's software you can have hidden areas that only members (or even only certain/screened members) even know about. Jeremy | ||
| Richardtinker Registered user Username: Richardtinker Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2000  |
Since God has so generously let us in on what he is doing, we're not about to throw up our hands and walk off the job just because we run into occasional hard times. We refuse to wear masks and play games. We don't maneuver and manipulate behind the scenes. And we don't twist God's Word to suit ourselves. Rather, we keep everything we do and say out in the open, the whole truth on display, so that those who want to can see and judge for themselves in the presence of God." 2 Corinthians 4:2 The Message | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2003  |
Richard I agree that everything we do and say should be out in the open. The truth should be spoken in the open and if it can't be said in the open it shouldn't be said. Sometimes comments are made when the total picture is not known or visable to the writer. That is why I try to be very careful in what I say. Maybe not always careful enough but I do try. The last three days have been days where God has been very close to me. One of the high points was last night at the church where we met from 7pm until after midnight. The worship was a time when there was great joy and celebration of what God was doing in our life, and an awesome awareness of Christ's love for each of us when He died that we might live. For more than 3 hours people where praying with each other and repenting and seeking a deeper experience with God. The prayer ministry members prayed with all the childern and it was awesome holding them and praying with them and telling them of God's love. We were working in teams and after awhile we realized that we were beginning to see the same children coming back to pray with us. They would walk between us and stop for prayer with different people. Parents were praying with their children. After I'd been praying with others for more than an hour I turned to the team beside me and told them I needed prayer as well. I hadn't realized actually who was on that team but it was one of my closest friends in the church and Chris's sister. (our Chris here) Cherry began to sing over me and I felt such a peace and powerful presence of God move over me. Before anyone says anything I know that emotions and feelings are not an accurate gauge of God's presence in our life, but it sure is nice to experience it at an emotional level sometime. I have had such a deep peace the last 24 hours. I'm not sure if I should express things that are this personal but we serve and are loved by such an awesome and woderful God, Jesus Christ. Please excuse me as I continue to GLOW and walk around with a silly grin on my face. There is so much more I could say but it is probably best I go quiet again. I just wanted to praise God and give glory to HIM. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 518 Registered: 7-2004 |
Richard, I am basking in your glow. No one would want to take that moment away from you, because God works in and through the Body of Christ (his church, comprised of individuals of all denominations) to bless is each and every one. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1625 Registered: 3-2004  |
Richard, That was a profound experience you had and I am so glad you are still glowing. I can see it in your writing. God works in and through those who love Him, where ever they may be. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 433 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard Thanks for sharing your experience with us. God does work in marvelous ways, and He is sovereign over all. God bless you. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 434 Registered: 3-2005 |
Before I ever posted on this forum, I lurked for over a year. I appreciated the fact that this forum was open, and that everyone was free to express their ideas without censorship. Since becoming active, I've become convinced even more that an open forum is the way to go. Remember when Pastor O'Ffill over on R/S was accusing us of conspiring to destroy their website? Well, we kept our conspiring in the open so all the world could see. However, posting on a forum like this can be a frustrating experience at times. It is easy to be misunderstood. I get upset at myself sometimes for being too impulsive, and forgetting that we are on the internet. I have also been impressed by following many different threads, how the Holy Spirit works everything out at times. Some of it may look ugly at times, but I believe God works sovereignly despite what I may do to mess things up. Finally, I believe we are in a spiritual battle with regard to fighting the deception that Adventism has propagated on the world. It would be one thing if we were arguing about the rapture and other irrelevant trivia, but we are talking about the continued propagation of the EGW deception, and how the official doctrines of Sabbatarianism and the Investigative Judgment so clearly deny the gospel. So many of us brought up in strict SDA homes understand the trauma that absolutely ridiculous rules can have on people. And when we feel liberated, we feel compelled to warn others. In expressing our righteous indignation (in my case) can sometimes sound unrighteous. But I am thankful for the opportunity to have this forum, so we can express ourselves freely. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1628 Registered: 3-2004 |
Amen, to Stan's statement above. Each of us have our own journey out of Adventism. Mine was painless with no relative/friend that have shunned me or told me I was going to be lost because of what I have done. The thing I want to do is let others know what Adventism is all about. I have 4 books, which I received yesterday from LAM, that I am going to give to the pastor of my church. I am praying about the SDA church that is being established here in my town. What I would like to do is buy a bunch of Ratzlaff's books "The Truth about SDA truth" and leave one on each car in the parking lot at the church. I also want to go talk to the minister that is renting the church to them and take him this book. Now that is what I want to do. It is not what God has told me to do. So I will wait for His instructions. I just do not want this deception foisted on any more people. The SDA church near me is to have a Revelation Seminar sometime in the future. It galls me that there is so much deception foisted on the people that attend. I will continue to pray about it. Please pray with me and for me, that I will do whatever God tells me to do. All this takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on other non salvation issues. Diana | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 520 Registered: 7-2004 |
Diana, I know how deeply you feel the need to reach out and open up a channel to the people who are in the process of starting up this church. I will pray with you that the Holy Spirit will put in your heart the exact thing that will bring the most people to a saving knowledge of Jesus. We all know that is the very most important opportunity that any individual can have. Again, I'm praying for/with you. God will open the way. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 72 Registered: 1-2005 |
Just the fact that the above dialogue can take place and each of us respect and value the other's opinions speaks mightily to me! I have learned that the most valuable quality to display in dealing with almost anything in life is honesty - sometimes it can be a painful process - sometimes yelling takes place - and words are mis spoken - but if people keep the dialogue going - pushing through the tough times - with a longing to know God better - it all works out eventually. Don't you think that God longs for our honest open hearts? After all, "He has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light!" Our job is NOT to convict hearts. Each of us must trust that God will lead all to truth who desire it. It would seem reasonable that if we follow the basic principles set down for use with this forum - AND keep it open and honest that God will take care of the rest. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 851 Registered: 7-2003  |
Richard, Thank you for sharing. I can identify with your experience. When we were in the early stages of the awakening that would eventually cause us to transition out of Adventism, three families would meet regularly to study and pray together. My sister, Cherry, came from CA and joined us on one occasion. It was a time of intense prayer and the presence of the Spirit was palpable. From that prayer time our study group began the custom of laying hands on a member who was struggling with something and praying for that person. We saw many powerful results. I remember one time, for no apparent reason, blackest depression hit me so that it even affected me physically. I barely made it to church that morning, but could not particpate in the singing and such. I spent most of the rest of the afternoon laying on the couch exhausted mentally, physically, and spiritually and in a hole so deep I couldn't see the edges let alone grasp them. Our study and prayer group decided to come to the house and pray for me. There is no way to convey the experience in writing as words will not do it justice. As these 5 other people laid their hands on me and began to pray for me I could actually feel the darkness pulling back, lifting, dispersing. By the time they had finished praying I felt tired, but okay. I could think, I could move, I could participate. We proceeded with our Bible study and were greatly blessed. Others in this group could tell very similar stories. Every member of that group, 6 adults and 7 children transitioned out of Adventism and succesfully integrated into the Body of Christ as active members of local churches. In addition, all of the members of that group also talked and studied with other friends some of who have also transitioned out. I believe there was a time of intense spiritual warfare being waged here in Lincoln. I believe the power of prayer was experienced in a very real way. I believe Satan suffered yet another defeat according to the sovereign purposes of God. And some of you on this board probably thought I was a cessationist.......... are you suprised? :-) Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris I had to smile as I read your post. . . acutally I would have been surprised if you were related to Cherry and remained a cessationist. A few years ago I didn't even know what the word ment. I realize I was one because I didn't really believe in the power of the Holy Spirit in REAL tangible ways. I've seen and experienced it to often now not to believe. One of the wonderful things I love about Cherry is her "heart". Friday night after she had sung in the spirit over me and they had prayer with me we sat and talked to one of the leaders of the prayer ministry about repenting of some of the roots the church was founded on. He couldn't quite "go there" but he did listen. He is open to ministry with other fellowships and does not try to "convert" them to SDAs but has not grasped the need to prayerfully examine "our" own ROOTS and repent of any false beginnings. Cherry was so loving and gentle yet spoke with GREAT POWER and simplicity of "SPIRIT. There were tears in both her and my eyes as we sat and taked with him. I sat and quietly listened and prayed that God's will be done and revealed to all those there. Cherry did not argue but quietly presented her sense of what God wanted. If we are not clean and washed with His Spirit we are ineffective in our ministry to others. Well enough rambling, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2154 Registered: 12-2003  |
Richard and Chris, thank you for telling us your prayer experiences. I had a couple of interesting insights related to prayer today. I went to see the orthopedist today because I'm having arthroscopic surgery on my knee tomorrow. (Yes, I'd appreciate your prayers!) While I was waiting to see him, the doctor's wife (who works in the office) came into the examining room to see me. (I'd taught two of her kids, so we have somewhat of a relationship.) She told me that their family was praying for me, and further, her husband takes home with him a list of his surgeries for the next day and spends time praying over each patient the night before. That made me cry! Then she told me about an incident that happened a few years ago. Her husband was barbequing for one of their daughter's birthday party when he got a call from his resident that a 17-yr-old had come in after a motorcycle crash. One leg was crushed, and after repeated examinations, they could find no pulse even with the doppler machine. They were planning to amputate. Dr. Yu asked the girls to pray, and he went to the hospital. Those six girls got on the phone and called family, grandparents, friends, and mobilized a prayer team. They and those they called began praying for that boy. Meanwhile, Dr. Yu spoke to the family and told them to pray also. The leg was as bad as the report had indicated; but before prepping for surgery, Dr. Yu called for the doppler to do one more test. There was a pulse! The boy's leg was saved, and Dr. Yu told him and his family that God had performed a miracle, because that leg was not saveable. So, I leave the Dr's office, complete my pre-admission stuff, and on a impulse I stopped by the Adventist Book Store (I never go there!) to look up a particular text in the Clear Word to see how it was rendered. (It was Colossians 2:14, and it is rendered completely differently from the "real" Bible--but that's another story!) I browsed a bit, and I picked up Dan Smith's book (he's the senior pastor at La Sierra University Church) called "Lord, I have a question." As I scanned it, I saw a chapter on prayer in which Dan explains that prayer puts us in a right relationship with God. This "relationship" affects how we react to those around us. Prayer, he explained, is like the ripples that result when a pebble is tossed into water. It has the most effect on those who are near us with decreasing effect onm those far from us with whom we either do not interact or interact only superficially. He even said that praying for missionaries far away will, of course, have some effect, but it will not be nearly as great as the effect on those close to home. I was quite stunned to read this analysis, but I realized that as long as one believes the function of prayer is simply to make one's own heart "right" with God, one really can't conclude anything different from Dan's conclusion. His understanding of prayer completely misses the spiritual reality that we are not fighting flesh and blood but the powers and authorities of the air. Somehow, our prayers are part of the spiritual reality that we cannot see. How dreadful to imagine that my prayers for those I'm not directly interacting with will have little effect! How limiting of God--and how blind to true reality which is spiritual in nature. Yes, God asks us to pray for one another, and He heals and holds us through each other's prayers. I don't know exactly HOW it works, but I know that it does work. Colleen | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2005 |
Seekr777 - I can "hear" your wonder at the powerful prayer experience you write about above! What a blessing to have a praying Church. That was the most noticeable thing about our Church when we first visited. It is a PRAYING Church, and it just felt so wonderful to be surrounded by praying people. We have a prayer and praise time that is so intimate with the Lord - no time-limits, no judgement, just heartfelt praying. Our prayer chain is active and every week we have reports of how God has answered prayer, how God has been blessing us. It is awesome! God isn't limited by distance or in any other way! We've seen His answers all over the world. Why pray to a god that is only local?!! Our God is the God of EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE. He is in CHARGE!! Why would one ever think He is limited? I don't need to understand it scientifically, I know because I've seen the results of prayer! The little I do understand of Physics gives me a small inkling of the Power of God. The universe is amazingly made! Just because I can't verbalize it, I know it is possible - God made it so! -tisha |
