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Message |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1859
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 2:34 pm: |     |
Kathy, I was raised SDA. I hold my membership at the local ELCA church. Our minister recently has been making a big deal about the ELCA wanting to desin a # of things. I guess the church I attend is way on the conservative side. Welcome to this forum. |
Kathy23
Registered user
Username: Kathy23
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 4:55 pm: | |
Thank you so much for all the comments. Since my post 2 days ago I have gone on a whirl wind journey. Some of it kind of painful.
Patriar, you may have thought you got side tracked but what you were saying is very pertinent to what I have to say now. God is good and knew where the discussion would lead.
This has to do with my comment about going to see a prophet. After I saw him, I was consumed with a desire to "prove" him to be a false prophet. I looked up everything I could find on false prophets. I based most of my assumptions on Deuteronomy 18:22. It says that "if a prophet predicts something in the Lord's name and it does not happen, the Lord did not give the message." Deut 18:20 says "But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die."
I didn't bother to do my research to see if a prophet in the Bible ever predicted something and then it didn't come to pass. How could I forget about Jonah. When he finally goes to Ninevah he tells them "Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!" The people believed him and they repented. When God saw they repented he didn't destroy the city and all in it. Jonah knew about the Deuteronmy test of a false prophet and he was afraid. He even says "just kill me now, Lord! I'd rather be dead than alive because nothing I predicted is going to happen!"
Then there is Hezekiah (in 2 Kings 20). He becomes ill and Isaiah tells him to set his affairs in order because the Lord says he's going to die. Hezekiah pleads with the Lord. He says "Remember, O Lord, how I have always tried to be faithful to you and do what is pleasing in your sight." 2 Kings 20:3 The Lord tells Isaiah to go back and tell Hezekiah he has "heard your prayer and seen your tears". He gives him 15 more years.
Then in the story of the Golden Calf in Exodus 32. The Lord is angry and he wants to destroy his people because they are "stubborn and rebellious". Moses pleads with God "Change your mind about this terrible disaster you are planning against your people!" Exodus 32:12 "So the Lord withdrew his threat and didn't bring against his people the disaster he had threatened." Exodus 32:14
What I'm getting at here is, who am I to call someone a false prophet because they have some failed prophecies or because I have read other peoples opinions on the internet? Matthew 7 tells us not to judge others or we will be judged in like measure. I was setting myself up to judge. It can be the same for teachers. If they bring people to Christ is it all bad? In Luke 9:49,50 "John said to Jesus, "Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons. We tried to stop him because he isn't in our group." But Jesus said, "Don't stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you."
We try to fit prophets and teachers in these neat little boxes but it just doesn't work that way. I would rather err on the side of mercy. If they are false it is up to God to deal with them, not me. Would we have believed John the Baptist was a true prophet? He was definitely outside the box. He lived in the wilderness,was wild looking, ate locusts, wore camels hair, yet he was the prophet to announce the coming of the Messiah.
I'm not saying to believe in every word a prophet or teacher says. The lesson I learned is to pray for them. To pray that they teach what the Lord would have them teach. To hold their ministry up to God. I'm not going to pick them apart anymore. That's making myself their judge and jury. If a teacher or a prophet strengthens your faith/walk with God that's great. Who am I to pick them apart and say something they said is wrong. I'm now tearing down your faith by doing that.
I was determined to get to "the truth" about Kim Clement. Is he or is he not a false prophet? Does it really matter? If his teaching draws someone else to the Lord would I stop that? If a teaching is wrong it is the Lord's business to deal with them, not ours. What if I came to the wrong conclusion and slandered a man of God?
This search totally consumed me for 5 days. It distracted me from my walk with the Lord.
It is true we do not want to be misled, but can't we hold it up to God? He is so loving,merciful and forgiving. He will lead us in what to believe.
Thank you for letting me get this out. It's ok if everyone doesn't agree with me. I hope it helps someone though.
Kathy
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 778
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:41 pm: | |
Kathy,
I must say that I strongly disagree with your conclusions. We must judge--we are commanded by Scripture to test the prophets to see whether they are true or false. Jesus says to "beware of the false prophets" and that we "WILL know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7).
Please take a look at this good explanation of Jonah's "failed" prophecy by Hank Hanegraaff, the "Bible Answer Man" with the Christian Research Institute: http://www.equip.org/free/CP1401.htm
Just one failed prediction is enough to make someone a false prophet. Also, anyone who teaches doctrines contrary to the Bible is not speaking for God. You said, "Who am I to pick them apart and say something they said is wrong." We can say that something they said is wrong if it contradicts the Word of God.
Kim Clement is a false prophet, who is a part of the whole TBN/Faith Movement religious scam.
Jeremy |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 60
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:44 pm: | |
Kathy23:
To know the Word of God and to be in prayer with Him is to live the life God asks of us. When we know the true thing, we cannot be persuaded and disillusioned by false prophets or bad teachers or for that matter, good teachers who have a bad day! You're right in saying that God is the judge of all. Though we are called to be discerning, the way to do that is to get my nose in the Book and my mind on God!
Thanks for your thoughts!
Patria |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 448
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:59 pm: | |
Kathy,
Again let me welcome you to this forum. I want to affirm what your impression originally was about Kim Clement. I just spent time researching the web site that Jeremy posted above, and it is crystal clear that your assessment of him as a fraud is entirely valid. He does mimimize the need to be born again, by denying that Jesus was affirming the need to be born from above. He also talks about the fact that although he believes in the 2nd coming, that Jesus appears in all generations by "divine visitations". This is similar to what Benny Hinn teaches. Also Clement is clearly associated with TBN, that specializes in false teaching about health and wealth. But I will post a link to where you can actually read all the prophecies he has made, and judge for yourself as to his validity www.kimclement.com/words/words.htm
Also there is a common misperception that Jonah made a false prophecy, and Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and SDAs have used this argument to affirm their false conditional prophecies. But a careful examination provided by CRI at www.equip.org/free/CP1401.htm may help you as it did me as I didn't have a good explanation either in the past. But it was clear that you sensed something was wrong when you visited Kim Clement, and I think you were right.
Stan |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 779
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:03 pm: | |
Kim Clement teaches that you do not need to be born again (your spirit regenerated by the Holy Spirit) in order to be saved, but that "each person is born with a treasure in their spirit." This is absolute heresy and a false gospel. He is therefore a false prophet and we can stand up and shout it out and warn people about it! This is not wrong to do, or unloving.
The Word of God says:
quote:I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Galatians 1:6-9 NIV.)
Here are some links to examine Clement further:
http://www.kimclement.com/doctrine/doctrinal_belief.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac14.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Bob_Hunter/clement.html
http://heresyhunter.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-kim-clement-false-prophet.html
Jeremy
EDIT: Here is Clement's exact quote on being born again:
quote:"I do not believe that you must be born again to obtain salvation. I believe there is a distinction"
Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)
--http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=6
(Message edited by jeremy on June 23, 2005) |
Faith2
Registered user
Username: Faith2
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:05 pm: | |
Kathy!!! I wish that I could jump through this site and give you a hug!!! Although I do not agree with everything that you've written, your conclusion of the matter is what has set me free. My major concern is not about being deceived again and I feel that it is not my place to try and expose false teachings! My job is to lift Jesus up and allow Him to do the exposing. I have been out of Adventism for almost 1 year and long gone are the worries of being deceived again. I glory in the thought that I once was lost but now am found...I refuse to be distracted and consumed with the SPIRIT of criticism. God has set us free from bondage. Glory in it!!! Either things line up with the word or they don't. Also, I've come to the realization that I do have to agree with 100% of what a religious leader teaches in order for me to be blessed by their ministry...
You said it best... "It is true we do not want to be misled, but can't we hold it up to God? He is so loving, merciful and forgiving. He will lead us in what to believe".
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 449
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:07 pm: | |
Jeremy,
You and I were posting at the same time. I did not see your post before posting mine-thanks for your info,
Stan |
Faith2
Registered user
Username: Faith2
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:17 pm: | |
For clarification purposes, my comment about being blessed by other ministries has nothing to do with Kim Clement. However, I do look at TBN and am often blessed by some of the programs aired. I judge the words that come out of their mouths and allow God to judge their motives! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2169
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 9:38 pm: | |
Kathy, although I do believe we are to be discerning about the nature of others' ministries, I do believe that God helped you to see the central point of your struggle: you must focus on Him and leave the justice in His hands. Obsessing about exposing evil really does blind us to growing in Jesus.
I believe that sometimes God places the work of apologetics before us, and as part of our walk with Him, He helps us to speak the truth about deception. At other times in our journey with Him, however, He simply asks us to walk away from distractions and focus only on Him. That is what your post sounds as if He led you to do.
Shontay and Kathy, praise God that He has clarified to you what He desires for you right now!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1649
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:52 am: | |
I have said before that "I" want to go down the street to where the SDAs are renting a church and tell the pastor, from whom they are renting, all about adventism and what it teaches. I want to put brochures on all the cars in the parking lot. BUT, that is what "I" want to do. That is not what God has told me to do. So I will leave the situation to God and let him take care of it. If He wants me to do anything He will let me know.
Diana |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 75
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:45 am: | |
Kathy23:
You have been on my heart and in my prayers. I hope you are well today.
Patria |
Kathy23
Registered user
Username: Kathy23
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 4:48 pm: | |
It's been a bumpy road this last couple of weeks. I was just practicing the Recorder intro on the song "When All is Said and Done" from the Revival in Belfast CD. A few of us from a group I sing with are singing it in church on July 10. The words of the song are really good. "When it's all been said and done there is just one thing that matters; Did I do my best to live for truth, did I live my life for You? When it's all been said and done, all my treasures will mean nothing; Only what I've done for love's reward, will stand the test of time. Lord, Your mercy is so great, that You look beyond our weakness; and find purest gold in miry clay, making sinners into saints. I will always sing Your praise, here on earth and ever after; For You've shown me Heaven's my true home, when it's all been said and done. You're my life when life is gone." Words and music by Jim Cowan.
Doesn't that pretty much say it all?
Kathy |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 460
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 6:15 pm: | |
Kathy,
That song really does say it all, and thanks for sharing it.
Stan |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 78
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:26 pm: | |
Kathy:
I am praying for you.
Yes, that song is beautiful and the words sum everything up perfectly. Thank you!
Patria |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2199
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:49 am: | |
Kathy, I love that song. Thanks for sharing it. We used that song at my dad's funeral four years ago...it still reminds me of his integrity when I think of it.
Colleen |
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