| Author | Message | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2004 |
Our pastor at our local church (C&M Alliance) will ask from time to time as to what Adventist believe about various issues. I know we have talked about this before but it is so frustrating trying to talk about what Adventist believe because there is a great deal of inherited beliefs, local interpretation, and (dare I say it) ignorance about what the church really stands for. I was with my mother this week (still SDA and unaware of our journey out) and when I mentioned doctrinal issues of some concern (EGW on pedestal, lack of true bible knowledge, or the unnatural obsession on Jewelry by many) she was saying that those things were not a problem in the Adventist Church. So if we were to come up with a list of definite concepts that most every adventist would say yes to, what would they be? (There could be no waffling on these) | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 390 Registered: 5-2002 |
I just stick with the 27 fundamentals and quote Ellen White's own words. Keep in mind that fundamental doctrine #17 declares the prophetic authority of Ellen White, and her own words declare that everything she said is included in her prophetic ministry. There's plenty of evidence against orthodoxy in those sources alone. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 753 Registered: 10-2004  |
I agree. As long as they continue to proclaim in their official statement of beliefs that EGW's writings are a "continuing and authoritative source of truth," then EGW's writings can be used as official Adventist belief (even if some people are unaware of certain things she wrote). Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2137 Registered: 12-2003  |
Goldenbear, I would also have to come back to the 27 Fundamentals, especially #17. Because of Ellen, the church is what it is. Because of her (and the resultant need to edit and interpret her "inspiration" which leads to "permission" to interpret/edit the Bible which leads to a lack of a core ground of belief and practice), Adventists can verbally and even internally espouse just about any variation of the doctrines they wish. As long as they hold to the SABBATH (that's one they would all agree is important in one way or another), they can hold all manner of variant beliefs about Ellen, etc. The church itself still espouses all 27; the individual members have been beguiled into loyalty by the "permission" they have to edit/interpret their own beliefs. As long as they stay loyal to the church, they are in bondage to Ellen and to the deception she perpetrated. The bondage is usually unconsious; it becomes evident when one begins to turn to the Bible. It does not come fully into focus until one chooses to follow Jesus alone and to leave the church. Consciously, most Adventists would affirm some form of seventh-day Sabbath, the "health message" in some form, and a sense of having special understanding or insight even if they no longer think they espouse remnant theology. Frankly, even those who claim not to honor Ellen would still not call her a false prophet. They would still hold her in some degree of esteem, rationalizing her "misuse" by the church, or explaining that in spite of her flaws, she served a centering and/or prophetic function for the young church who needed the direction and rallying point of a prophetic voice. She's like the eccentric great aunt no one really wants to visit but whom everyone knows holds the family wealth and must be accepted as part of the family--even if they never see her! Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, "eccentric great aunt" now that is an interesting "vision".  richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, yes I think almost all SDAs agree that the Sabbath is significant in some way, and also that the Ten Commandments are for Christians. Almost all SDAs believe that the dead are not conscious. Also, as Colleen alluded to, I think probably almost all SDAs, even liberals, believe that EGW was gifted in some way by God. Very few believe the real genuine gospel--but there are so many different gospels within SDAism that they are not exactly agreed on that. Probably the vast majority believe in 1844 and some sort of IJ. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 424 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just as Christianity stands or falls on the death and resurrection of Jesus, Adventism stands or falls on 1844-That Jesus went into the Holy of Holies to start another work of atonement. Without 1844, there can be no such thing as traditional Adventism. This is the only unique doctrine that Adventists hold--The I.J. And there is no way of saying it any nicer than this: The I.J. logically denies the gospel. Stan | ||
| Goldenbear Registered user Username: Goldenbear Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2004 |
I understand about the 27 fundementals. But when you are talking with current SDA's about some of the challenges and contridicitions with Ellen, there is the beginnings of waffling. Imagine it this way... Q. What about these inconsistincies in EGW? A. Oh, I don't know, I don't read her much anyway. Q. What about meat eating and other health related doctrine? A. Those were given for that time. In fact the health message is more of a guideline. Q. Am I saved if I believe in Jesus Christ and confess his name? A. Well, you certainly are saved by believing in Jesus but it is also important how you live after, because sanctification is the work of a lifetime. My point is this. Adventism has morphed itself to be more about what people think and less about what the bible says. I find some (many more than I would wish) who seem to use the bible only when it is convenient and only when it supports their position. Stan, as bizarre as it may seem, I am starting to hear Adv. waffle on the IJ and it seems that the anchoring issue is the Sabbath. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1619 Registered: 3-2004  |
The way I see it is that if a person shows up on Saturday morning to SS and stays for church-even on communion sabbath, dressed up, holding a Bible, pays their tithe, they are considered an SDA. Sad, but true. God deserves more than that. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2005 |
Goldenbear: I'll tell you a little story about our journey out of Adventism. When we found out that EGW was a false prophetess we wrote our own 60+ page manifesto of the 'potential' problems with her. A copy of it ended up in our conference president's lap and he didn't call us but came to our church and spoke with my husband. When my husband specifically asked about the IJ, he said, "Oh nobody believes that anymore" (note the quotes). We also spoke to one of our pastors about all of this and he too said basically the same thing. It seems that most SDAs are understanding that the IJ just plain doesn't hold up to Biblical scrutiny. So what we're left with is all this nebulous stuff (which nobody feels is really "that" important)---and the SABBATH (which is THE salvific issue). It's always the SABBATH. I can't tell you how many of our friends have said, "why can't you just come to church here?" They do not understand the official church positions nor would they adhere to them if they did. I have become increasingly alarmed at this development because it's (in my opinion) even more difficult to argue with. I mean it's in the 10 commandments! It truly takes time and commitment to understand why the 10 commandments are no longer a requirement and right there...that's it...that's where I lose them. I can see the cogs in their minds saying "uh-huh that's what I thought. There's some convoluted around-the-barn answer, but the 10 commandments are CLEAR!" I mean, literally their faces take on a stare and they completely close off! Is anyone else experiencing that? Anyway, as you can tell, I'm feeling especially frustrated about this right now! Anybody have a good answer! Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2005 |
Goldenbear: I'll tell you a little story about our journey out of Adventism. When we found out that EGW was a false prophetess we wrote our own 60+ page manifesto of the 'potential' problems with her. A copy of it ended up in our conference president's lap and he didn't call us but came to our church and spoke with my husband. When my husband specifically asked about the IJ, he said, "Oh nobody believes that anymore" (note the quotes). We also spoke to one of our pastors about all of this and he too said basically the same thing. It seems that most SDAs are understanding that the IJ just plain doesn't hold up to Biblical scrutiny. So what we're left with is all this nebulous stuff (which nobody feels is really "that" important)---and the SABBATH (which is THE salvific issue). It's always the SABBATH. I can't tell you how many of our friends have said, "why can't you just come to church here?" They do not understand the official church positions nor would they adhere to them if they did. I have become increasingly alarmed at this development because it's (in my opinion) even more difficult to argue with. I mean it's in the 10 commandments! It truly takes time and commitment to understand why the 10 commandments are no longer a requirement and right there...that's it...that's where I lose them. I can see the cogs in their minds saying "uh-huh that's what I thought. There's some convoluted around-the-barn answer, but the 10 commandments are CLEAR!" I mean, literally their faces take on a stare and they completely close off! Is anyone else experiencing that? Anyway, as you can tell, I'm feeling especially frustrated about this right now! Anybody have a good answer? Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2005 |
oops! sorry about the double post! Don't know how I managed that. | ||
| Tdf Registered user Username: Tdf Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2004 |
Patria, It's good to read your story. I grew up in an ultra conservative SDA church and, while I was going through my journey out, I was operating under the impression that all SDAs are as orthodox as the ones I have known. I am learning more and more about the waffling that is happening in the SDA church. I would be encouraged by this if I thought that it indicated that the winds of change were blowing. However, I don't sense that anything is really changing. As so many have mentioned, SDAs aren't remotely ready to publicly admit that EGW is a false prohet. Therefore, things are simply swept under the rug. If you've ever tried to discuss the gospel with an SDA after your exodus, you can't help but be struck by the amount of dancing that they will do to justify their positions. More than anything else, I simply long for SDAs to understand the gospel, to have assurance today of their salvation. This is what I pray for . . . . | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 486 Registered: 7-2004 |
Goldenbear, Good to "hear" you again on the forum. I am so sorry to have missed out on meeting you and Mrs. Goldenbear. Interesting that you ask these questions as I have been wanting to poise a question similar to yours to everyone here. Due to limited options, my children will remain in the SDA school system. I have agonized over this for many, many months. We thought for awhile this spring that we were moving out of SDA-ville but for another year we stay put. I have turned my children over to God. He will keep them safe, of this I am confident. Please keep me and them in your prayers. I am very open with my children (8th and 4th grades) regarding the false beliefs of the SDA church. I also am holding up the Scriptures as the proof of their false doctrines for them to see the difference. I firmly believe darkness has no hold on us when the Light of Truth is shinning. We are attending a community church that is such a blessing. My children LOVE going there and have insisted that they get new Bibles to take. My Jr. High daughter says the difference between Sabbath School and her Sunday "History Makers" clas is HUGE. She said everyone is on their feet praising God during praise service and listens (even takes notes) during their "sermon". Nobody stands out in the hall or sits stone faced during song service as they do at SS. A few weeks ago, she and another non-SDA friend who goes to the SDA school, asked if I would help them be ready for the coming school year with Bible texts and comments they could make when they are questioned as to why they are "Sunday worshippers". Nobody has dared to openly question my daughter but it is talked about when she is not around ("I can't believe she stopped going to church and goes on Sunday...it's just so she can go to swim meets on Sabbath..." - her friend was at a birthday party when this was discussed). Would you all mind coming up with different questions you have heard or know of and post those questions with the "perfect" response you could give and a text you have to support your response? They feel "nervous" about next year's Bible class and really want to stand up for their belief in Jesus as their only source of salvation without falling apart in front of others. Thanks for your help in advance. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 515 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dd, There is one phrase in your post above that struck me, hard! "A few weeks ago, she and another non-SDA friend who goes to the SDA school, asked if I would help them be ready for the coming school year with Bible texts and comments they could make when they are questioned as to why they are 'Sunday worshippers'." You can start by making certain your kids understand that they don't worship Sunday the way SDA's worship Sabbath. There is a whole mindset wrapped around Sabbath keeping that makes the day so much more important than Sunday has ever been to Christians at large. You kids can simply say firmly that they are Jesus worshippers who meet with other Jesus worshippers on Sunday, and leave it at that. We all know of the various verses in Romans and other NT books that point out the fulfillment of all law and prophetic utterance. The SDAs know these texts too, and insist on turning a blind eye to them. The kids are great, and will be witnessing to their SDA friends by simply pointing to Jesus, only Jesus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2141 Registered: 12-2003 |
First, regarding what SDAs believe: The morphing/waffling they do frustrates me intensely because it confuses not only themselve but also the Christians who know them. I've had SO many Christian acquaintances tell me that Adventists are changing; their SDA friends don't believe those things anymore! I have to reply that NOTHING has changed in the church's beliefs and doctrines. I'm convinced that (in spite of the the GCs attempts to tighten up and require signed statements from Bible teachers at colleges that they'll teach all the fundamentals) the church looks the other way and alllows members to make their own personal "creeds" because at least it keeps them in the church. Bottom line: as Stan said above, it truly IS EGW and 1844 that holds the church together. Individuals may think they don't believe in these things, but without them, they would have no body of support or proof for what they think they do believe. This is where I see the (sorry in advance if I offend, but I deeply believe this) demonic affects of the deception. Adventists CANNOT see the problems with their theology and their pick-and-choose philosophy because they are under a spiritual hold that keeps them blind to reality and truth, even when it confronts them head-on. Adventism is not only a profoundly powerful culture; it is a religion based on false doctrines, doctrines of demons, and it holds people in bondage even when they "don't know" what they believe. Especially, I think, when they dismiss the uncomfortable parts and hold onto what they want, glibly saying that stuff "doesn't matter" and "no one believes it anymore". Such comments ARE NOT POSSIBLE if one is actually studying to find out whether or not they should believe something. Such comments come from personal discomfort and even embarrassment. If those same people would open their Bibles and desire truth enough to pray, they would probably still discard those beliefs, but they would also see how they are tied together with everything else they believe. The pick-and-choose attitude comes from a profound resistance to KNOW the truth and to study for oneself. Dd, we have former SDA friends with a 14-yr-old daughter who just graduated 8th grade from an SDA school. (She's going into public school next year.) She studied the 8th grade Bible curriculum and, by the end of the year, knew SDA church history better than her classmates and took the Bible award. She also had many discussions with her friends and with her teacher, especially over Sabbath and state of the dead. Those two things seemed to be prominent in the 8th grade curriculum. Also SDA church history. Her teacher actually required them to read a chapter out of Great Controversy to study the state of the dead. For this girl, it was important for her to understand how and why the Genesis account was not God giving the Sabbath. That definitely came up as the bottom line reason for the Sabbath. It was God's finished work that He commemorated on the seventh-day, and Adam and Eve were resting in it until they sinned. (As Nathanael said about the Genesis account of the seventh day, "God might as well have said, 'It is finished;'"--great connection.) The book of Hebrews is really important--the passages about "where there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law"--(Hebrews 7), etc. and further verses about the old covenant being flawed and the new one better because it's founded on better promises (Heberews 8, also 2 Cor. 3) were texts that came up in relationship to this girls questions. As your daughter goes through 8th grade, Dd, just feel free to post questions here; there are many good thinkers here who will help with texts, etc. I'm so sorry about the behind the back comments your daughter's been getting. It's painful, but the Holy Spirit will be her strength even in this. God is preparing her for work He has already planned for her to do! Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 487 Registered: 7-2004 |
Beautiful, Belva. Thanks. The girls know this. We have talked about it. This week is campmeeting in Walla Walla. It's the huge "spiritual" weekend for my parents, their friends, their friend's friends, some of my friends... The brochure prepared for this big 125 year celebration of the Upper Columbia Conference for this campmeeting has a EGW quote about needing to look back in history [of the church] in order to look to the present and future of where to go (my wording - not a direct quote). In this brochure, that quote is repeated 3 times. There are two mentions of "Jesus" in the context of the SDA church bringing people into the church. There is no mention of God, His grace or love. There is not one Bible text mentioned or quoted! Compare that to the worship these girl's receive at their "Sunday worship". It is no wonder they really look forward to going! They have complete peace, I believe, in where they stand and what they know to be truth. I think they just want to be prepared to openly take a stand when something is said. It's scary to be out numbered 70+ to 2! Thanks, for rightly noticing the "Sunday worship"...that is so true. It speaks volumes that these kids have been taught that the day is much more important than the One who made the day. GIVE ME JESUS! | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good points Colleen. Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 429 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, Thanks for stating what needs to be said regarding the true nature of Adventism. I think sometimes its easier just to be lovey-dovey, and just talk about Jesus, no matter what Jesus they may believe in. "Let's just all get along. Theology just divides people" We see that in Adventist circles as well as in evangellyfish circles.(Did anyone catch the Billy Graham interview with Larry King last night on CNN? Where he clearly stated that he has no problems with Mormons or Catholics, and even admitted that he knows other evangelicals do have problems with Mormons, but he doesn't. Larry King asked him twice about Mormons, and his answer was pretty clear, if someone wants to check out the transcript from CNN). My point is this. We as former Adventists need to confront false teaching whether it is of the Dan Smith "everybody is already saved and isn't that nice?" variety or traditional Adventism which elevates EGW to popehood and believes everything "that handsome young man" who guided her hand her entire career starting when she wrote Early Writings wrote. Yes we need to be loving, but many times the most loving thing to do is to be frank and expose false teachings no matter who it is teaching them. Yes, it does offend people when we say certain doctrines taught by Adventists are doctrines of demons, but that is what Paul the Apostle taught, and we must let the chips fall where they may. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 759 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for your post, Colleen. You're right on. Dd, remind the girls that Jesus plus 1 or Jesus plus 2 equals a majority, no matter how many others are in the room. If they are on Jesus' side they have the power of His Spirit in them and with them, and they have nothing to fear. Jeremy |
