| Author | Message | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 |
I thought this was most interesting: In their empirical study of the psychology of religion, Bernard Spilka, Ralph Hood, and Richard Gorsuch point out that numerous studies have concluded that "while Jews show the least abstinence from alcohol . . .: they possess extremely low rates for pathological drinking." On the other hand, "Methodists express negative attitudes toward drinking, yet a study of a college sample showed that 'more Methodist students drank to get intoxicated than any other group.'" The same irony shows up in Mormon samplings, and other legalistic groups. On the other hand, "Judaism considers alcohol a gift of God that must not be abused," and "orthodox and conservative Jews become intoxicated less than their reform or secular coreligionists." Conclusion? "Alcoholism seems to be troublesome among groups that generally take the most negative stance toward unlimited drinking." that is just one example of how legalism can undermine law. Most hardened secularists in society today were raised in repressive, authoritarian religious environments. [Bernard Spilka, et al, The Pshychology of Religioin: An Emperical Approach Englewood Cliffs, N.J.; Prentice-Hall, 1985, 267-68] Rev. Dr. Michael S. Horton, Associate Professor of Apologetics and Historical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in California points out that Legalism, adding to God's Word, continues to drive people away from God. That is one reason why adding to his commands is condemned equally with subtracting from them (See Deut. 4:2; Prov. 30:6; Rev 22:18) In Satan's strategy, legalism was as useful a tool as lawlessness. Notice Eve's response to the devil when in conversation with him at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. She rightly countered that God had said they could eat freely from the trees in the garden. But, she continuted, God had also said, "You must not eat from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die" (Gen 3:3) So, on one hand she rejected Satan's addition to God's commandment, but she turned around and added her own - - that of not touching the tree. God had told them they could eat freely from all the trees in the garden except this one tree. Obviously, if Adam and Eve were to eat from this tree, it would be out of rebellion, not out of necessity. This is still our way. Although God has given us so much to take pleasure in, we are not content until we have indulged in that which is forbidden. In his Confessions, St. Augustine tells the story of how he and his friends would plunder the neighbor's pear tree. It was not out of necessity, any more than Adam's actions were as he had a pleasant pear tree in his own back yard. Rather, he confessed, the pleasure was in the sin, not in the pear. The neighbor's pears tasted better precisely because they were stolen. Eve was attracted visually by the packaging and was also attracted by the promises the tree was advertised to guarantee. (Gen 3:6). I dare say that with most men involved in sexual affairs, it is the packaging that offers the initial temptation, rather than any outstanding character trait or godliness. Gen 3:7. When Adam and Eve took that big risk and "found themselves," they realized they were lost. Dr. Horton writes: "Religion is, for the most part, our way of covering ourselves, a means of sewing respectability, morality, and charity into a patchwork garment that can hide our nakedness." In a Time magazine essay entitled "What Really Matters?" Robert Rosenblatt sought to define "the idea characterizing our age." His critique of modern culture draws its conclusion about "our age of self-confident autonomy" by noting, "When people are unfettered they are freed, but not yet free." Jess | ||
| Bob Registered user Username: Bob Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2000  |
Jess, fascinating post. Thought-provoking. Thank you! Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2110 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jess, very interesting. I found the concluding quote really compelling: "When people are unfettered they are freed, but not yet free." We heard the most thought-provoking commencement address Saturday at our younger son's high school graduation from Arrowhead Christian Academy. The class had asked the history teacher, Donn Headley, to give the address. As Richard said, every phrase was carefully crafted to convey profound ideas. The concluding quote above reminded me of something he said. First, Dr. Headley said that we face two choices: align ourselves with the world and its systems, or align ourselves with the church. Business and entertaniment may occasionally do some good for people, he said, but they do nothing of lasting value. When a person committed to the world dies, they are not missed. The church, on the other hand, needs you. What you do as a member of the church has eternal significance, and when you die, you are sorely missed in the temporal realm, but you are not gone. You join the great cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews 12 (upon whose shoulders we build). He said that (and I'm paraphrasing--I don't remember exactly how he put it) the world offers individuals freedom, but that freedom does not yield internal freedom. It yields bondage to the system. The church asks us to give up our personal freedom to become slaves of Christ, yet our slavery to Christ is the only way we discover freedom. So, Jess--the point you quoted above is true. The illusion that we can be autonomous and enjoy freedom is an illusion; we only find freedom when we become enslaved to Christ instead of to worldly systems--which appear to give us the autonomy to achieve our individual dreams. Regarding strict religious prohibitions and their effects on behavior--I've often poindered the same things. I haven't decided which comes first: the strictures produce people fixated on the prohibited behaviors, or people who struggle with out-of-control compulsion allign themselves with rigid churches in the hope of finding relief (or a place to feel disciplined for the sins they continue to perpetrate). I'm inclinded to think the phenomenon works both directions. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 407 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, You make a lot of excellent points. Dr. Michael Horton is one of my favorite authors. He is one of the panelists on the White Horse Inn broadcast every Sunday night on the radio and on the internet at www.whitehorseinn.org. He has written a lot of good books including "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace", and also another book documenting the legalism that you refer to as a phenomenom in America relating to the influence Arminianism has had on fundamentalism. Your illustration of alcohol prohibition is a classic example. The Temperance movement in this country originates from non-Christian roots such as the Women's Christian Temperance Union. Also we saw the failed experiment with prohibition in this country. Whenever you try to put restrictions on behavior which the Bible does not support in any way, then you have this problem of legalism, and resultant abuse of a perfectly good and healthy gift from God. Just because wine is abused does not take away from its well known health benefits of moderate use. The Jews as you point out have always recognized what the Bible said about wine. It can both be a mocker as well as a good gift. In any culture, wheher its the Jews as you mention, or in European countries, whenever the proper use of wine is taught culturally rather than forbidden as in many of our fundamentalist sub-cultures, then it has been clearly demonstrated that the rates of alcoholism and abuse go way down. The Bible alone plus NOTHING(not EGW, not American fundamentalism or Pentecostalism, No other man-made laws) should be what we determine our behavior on. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 215 Registered: 8-2004 |
Stan, You state, "The Temperance movement in this country originates from non-Christian roots such as the Women's Christian Temperance Union." How is a "Women's CHRISTIAN Temperance Union" not Christian? Not trying to argue with your main point (The Bible alone plus NOTHING). Just asking for further evidence for the Temperance Movement's non-Christian history. Mary | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2004 |
JWD, I don't have the words for that post. My mother and I were discussing the whole alcohol thing last week. I was raised ABSOLUTELY AGAINST ALCOHOL. My parents were given alcohol as gifts from friends but they would never drink it. They would stash it in a cabinet over the washer and dryer to grow cob webs. Every now and then I would see some wine in the back of the refrigerator hidden behind the loaves of bread. But one day I was with my father at church while he was talking with this very old man. My father asked him what he did to live so long, and the old man replied, "I take a shot of whiskey a day." They laughed and it was I guess a funny time. But for me, I figured I would sneak and take a shot every morning before school since my parents and siblings left to go to work and school before I did. They never even checked the liquor over the washer and dryer so I knew that I could get to that stash. I was in the seventh or eighth grade then. It was this nervous rush that would come over me when I would climb on top of the washer when no one was at home. Nobody was there to get me in trouble yet but still I could hear my parents in the back of my head condemning alcohol. By the time that I entered high school, I was mixing Jack Daniels, Southern Comfort, or Puerto Rican Rum in those little Hug fruit punch drinks with the foil tops from Sams. I would drink have and pour liquor in the other half, then place foil over the top. I began taking these to school with my lunch. Up to that point I was a fairly intelligent individual, after that I was drunk. I literally flunked my entire freshman year in high school, and half of my sophmore year. My parents never new what was happening or why I went from straight A's to straight F's because I was sober by the time I got home, and I got home before them. I graduated high school and went off to school, meaning that I no longer had to hide to drink. I became a full blown alcoholic. I would wake up and drink. The funny thing about alcohol is that when you get used to it, it makes you feel like you have eaten something. Your body learns to function with it instead of food. All the while you get dehydrated and weakened. I got kicked out of my first school. By now my parents new everything and the most tear jerking thing for me to say is that through it all. They came to my AID. I cursed them, asked them to disown me. Told them that I didn't want to be their son anymore. But they still came to my AID. They brought me down to Alabama to stay with my brother. He admonished me not to drink, but he knew that he couldn't stop me if I did and he gave me my space which is what I needed. Outside of my parents Alcoholism and Cancer runs in my family. I found no reason to continue drinking. I kept constant contact with my parents. And they just really showed me how much that they loved me. And honestly, they never wavered. I was the idiot not wanting to see it. I became able to handle my environment. Once everyone knew that I drank, they looked at me as if to say, "ok, drinking is not wrong." Then they started explaining biblically drinking is not wrong as long as it is done in moderation. Being drunk was a sin. I felt suddenly justified. And strangely enough, the need to be tore up all of the time left me. I still drink now every now and then, but it is not the same as when I was younger. It is weird. I thought that it would always have a hold on me. But I know that I can do it as long as I don't get drunk. That made every thing different. Now, years later, I have grown up and become a productive person in society. I said all of that to say this. It is bad enought that people cannot heed simple regulations from the Word of God. But for society to place added regulation only pushes people down a darker path. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2005 |
Stan, There is a lot to be said which touches upon this general subject. I did my own study of the original words (in Heb & Greek) used for wine in the Bible and was surprised at what I found; and joyous as well. I am reminded of Paul's counsel to Timothy (5:23)to "use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." My doctor encouraged me to have a glass of red wine in the evening to increase my Triglicerides. It is interesting to me to note that the use of the Greek word (above) is from the Hebrew "yayin" which David uses in Ps 104:15, which is the same root word used in John 2. it is NOT fresh grape juice but fermented wine that is here referred. Moffatt's version reads: "wine to cheer up the heart of man...." NEB renders it: "and wine to gladden men's hearts,...." NIV "wine that gladdens the heart of man...." Updated NASB - "And wine which makes men's heart glad, ...." I always smile when I comment, that although the Bible admonishes against drunkenness, here, may I suggest, it takes more than one glass of wine to "gladden" and "cheer up" one's heart. Evidently the Bible is not against enjoying the good things of God, including enough wine to make the heart of man merry! Amen! And would you mind pouring me another glass of D'Aquino Chianti from Italy? :c) Oh, and may I have some more of that delicious sharp cheeze? lol Jess | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 842 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hrob, that's a powerful testimony. I too was raised with the idea that alcohol was evil in all contexts and in any amounts. As a result, I developed an "all or nothing" attitude about alcohol. That is, I believed there was only total and complete abstinence or there was drunkenness and sin, moderation did not enter into the picture. So when I got to a certain point in life when I realized that I could not become holy enough to enter Heaven (sometime in academy), I began to feel very hopeless and fatalistic. I realized I was going to hell no matter how hard I tried and I might as well have a little taste of ìpeaceî and ìjoyî (or the closest approximations I could manufacture) before I was forever annihilated by hell fire. I spent several years in academy and college living a hedonistic life that involved alcohol abuse and other immoral destructive activities. I saw drinking as something one did to get drunk and I pursued drunkenness aggressively. In other words, when I drank, I really drank, sometimes to levels of dangerous toxicity. It was all or nothing. I am no longer enslaved by fears of hell and by hopelessness. I have the true peace and joy that can only come through Christ. I have a much more biblical understanding of what it means to walk with Christ. I now understand the concept that God has given us many good gifts such as wine, sex, food, wealth, etc. but Satan has twisted all of these in such a way that people are utterly destroyed by them. I praise God for saving me from destruction. I praise Him for filling me with the peace and joy that drunkenness and immorality could not. I praise Him for teaching me about the moderate and proper use of His good gifts. And along with the Psalmist, I can now praise God for ìwine that gladdens the heart of manî Ps. 104:15 Chris | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 189 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, I feel exactly the same way. It feels good to know in your heart when you can realize that alcohol, sex, food, wealth in moderation are gifts from God. | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hrobinsonw: Thanks for that open sharing. I felt a rush of several emotions as I read your experience,mixed like a bowl of spaghetti. The climate of a forum prohibits me from occasionally sharing "all" that is on my heart. I felt sadness and I must admit, anger, for what you endured as a yound man. Only God knows what would have resulted, but I lean toward thinking that had the rigid "sinful" name tags not been plastered on virtually everything "normal and human" in the growth process of young Adventists, we would likely see less parinoia, less depressed, psychologically scared adult Adventists and former Adventists. A former classmate of mine since the 6th grade, now deceased, left me with a file over an inch thick of her letters, in which she wrote things she said she had never told her parents or anyone in her family. Part of those horrible things happened because she was married to an Adventist minister. Perhaps if your parents would have felt secure enough in Christ and the authentic Gospel, to share a little wine occasionally and to have allowed you a sip on special occasions, with balanced wisdom regarding over-indulgence; perhaps you would have been spared the rough, sad road you traveled back then. I don't know, but I can't help but wonder. Just this morning during our "Java and Jehovah" time, my wife reminded me that my own puritanistic, Adventist mother said to her once, "Jess never tasted a Coke or Pepsi until he began dating you!" She gave evidence that in her heart she expected the girl who would marry her only son, would be as perfect as she tried by her whippings and strictness to make me become, to meet the high goal of "perfection" held up and supported by a thick coating of "Egg White." According to California law, I was abused physically, emotionally and mentally, all in an effort to abide by and reach the "unreachable goal" of perfection of character, continually held out to me as what I would become or else be damned. I was sent to conduct a Revival Series in a church in Wyoming which was physically split. I mean members taking sides behind two individuals and sitting on opposite sides of the center isle in the church; refusing to speak to one another. Two male members had to be separated physically when they started to have a fist fight after church over this flammable issue. What was it, you ask? Homosexuality? Adultery? Having sex with children? Stealing? Taking drugs? Murder? No. So what was this great sin that caused grown adult people, all claiming to be God's "true remnant members" to be so angry with each other they split the church? One member walking down the side walk down town, had happened to glance through the glass of the local Cafe and spoting a member of the church drinking coffee at the counter, rushed home to make a phone call to tell someone else! An entire church split so seriously, the Conference President asked me to go conduct a revival - - over drinking a cup of coffee ! Is that splitting hairs or what? Majoring in minors? It is so horrible, yet so rediculous it brings one to uncontrolled laughter who hears it - - someone, that is, who was not raised under the steel arm of LEGALISM. I cannot say what percentages of French and Italian children grow up to be alcoholics - - but I doubt it is very large. There they drink wine as part of nearly every meal. It is not an issue of morality, but something natural that should go with a good meal and happy times. Others may not understand and I am not speaking for you, (although it may apply - only you can say) - - but I rejoice in this aspect of the freedom Christ offers me. He created the coffee bean and the grape, and He created the wine for that marriage party, the REAL STUFF! I just thank God for Trader Joe's where good quality wine can be purchased for very reasonable prices, due to them ordering in 40,000 case lots! (smile) On occasion, I even lift my glass - AND coffee mug in a verbal toast to The Holy Ones; and to my Liberator who has set me free SO THAT I MIGHT BE FREE. Gal. 5:1. Cheers, Hrobinsonw! Cheers! in the name of Jesus Christ. Jess | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 |
Chris, I appreciate your post. I did not verbalize my joy in Christ, my unspeakable gratitude for His absolute saving Grace and Love; but I join you in praising Him and giving to His Majesty the heartiest of "Hip-Hip-Horrays!" and Cheers of eternal joy, and if I could dance, I'd try to copy King David and dance for joy before Him! Hardly a morning goes by without Bonnie and I thanking the Eternal Three for such great love and for the precious authentic Gospel of His saving Grace! Praise God, He did not let you continue on the slippery slide of fatalism to your destruction. No one knows, except those who have experienced "it" for themselves. Hearing the personal stories offers it's own unique validation and in some, perhaps strange way, more salve for healing - as we find out we were not the only ones to suffer so. Yet it is wonderful to praise God together for the unspeakable joy awaiting us and all who hear the lock of their prison cell busted open,and step out into the glorious sunlight of HIS Freedom! Hallelujah! What a Savior! Jess | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 843 Registered: 7-2003 |
Great posts, Jess! I really appreciated them. Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen is it possible to get a copy of Dr. Headley's address you mentioned? I'd love to either read a copy or listen to one. richard | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks everyone for sharing your interesting testimonials with regard to the forbidden fruit--the grapes of wrath-- I went to Pacific Union College which is so strategically placed right in the middle of that glorious Napa valley. Our Sabbath afternoon entertainment was touring the wineries, and in those days, the wine was free, and they didn't check ID's carefully, so our biggest challenge was coming back for the mandatory sundown worship service without the dean sensing we were a little tipsy. Fortunately, I was never caught or found out, or my admission to Medical school would have been doomed or at least greatly endangered. When I became a Christian years later, there was a short time where I listened to some of the fundamentalist preachers, and tried for awhile to abstain completely from alcohol so I could either be more spiritual, or be a better Christian witness. However, the more I studied the Bible, the more I realized how false those notions were--EXCEPT--I am still very careful not to exercise my freedom when I am around people that I know may be offended, and I believe that when we are trying to witness to our SDA friends, it is better not to flaunt your freedom in those cases. I think that is what Romans 14 talks about so clearly. Chris and Hrob, Those were wonderful testimonies of God's grace in giving you true freedom. Mary, I don't have the references right now, but if you go back and look at the origins of the Temperance movement in America, the WCTU was clearly not a true Christian organization even though Christian appears in their name. I will have to look it up--but I bet that someone has those references. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2116 Registered: 12-2003 |
Richard, I don't know how to get just the speech. ACA is selling videos of the entire graduation (the speech was about 10-15 minutes of the entire thing!)--they may be selling audio tapes as well. I'm not sure. If you're interested, you can call 909-793-0601. Hrob, Chris, and Jess, thank you for your posts above. It's really encouraging to hear how God has revealed Himself in the places of our deep brokenness and bondage. There's really no way to get lasting freedom from compulsions outside of Jesus. I am just so grateful to Him. Colleen | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 190 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jess, I drink Grey Goose Vodka and I toast to God as well. I am born and raised Baptist and reached alot of oppostition of my takes on alcohol. At my old church, that view of alcohol is detestable. I just want people to raise their children according to scripture. My parents did do that. Alcohol is the only thing that they prohibited vehemently. You have to always ask, how much has society altered our living and how has it affected the lives of others. In biblical times men and women were married and having sex at young ages. By the time puberty set in on most of them they were already married and could be aroused with each other. Society set an age limit along with requirements which prolongs the age of marriage. But they get mad when puberty sets in and kids start going crazy. Back then sexual immorality wasn't that bad. If you were sexually immoral, you were really SEXUALLY IMMORAL. Society has screwed so much of a good thing up. Oh, and Jess, cheers to you as well. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 411 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, I will see you at Trader Joes! That is also a great place to buy many of the other healthful foods that God has so graciously given to us. When Jesus was accused of being a winebibber, they were not accusing Him of being a grapejuice drinker. His first miracle at Cana was centered around providing wine to wedding guests. It is absolutely absurd to say that Jesus turned the water into grape juice, because what SDAs and other fundamentalists are doing is diminishing the magnitude of the miracle, because it takes a long time to produce good aged wine. Also the context is very clear. But, the health benefits that Paul was telling Timothy about have been proven by medical science. But, still moderation is the key word. Unfortunately, a certain percentage of the population who start drinking will become alcoholics, but you can also become addicted to food. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control, and if we pray for that gift, then we can find joy in using, but not abusing all of God's wonderful gifts. Stan | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well, not to be glib, but I'm just downright annoyed! I was the "good girl" and NEVER tried alcohol until I found freedom in Christ. Unfortunately my taste buds haven't appreciated my newfound freedom, and I haven't been able to coax them into enjoying any type of alcohol very much if at all. I AM a caffeine addict. Isn't that ironic: that I never touched alcohol, but drank caffeine (and still do) by the buckets. I too am thankful for the Grace that God has so freely bestowed on me. Still being perfected, Patria | ||
| Hrobinsonw Registered user Username: Hrobinsonw Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2004 |
Patriar, You are like my wife. She can't stand the smell of it. But to each is own. My wife craves caffeine and candy for some reason. She will chase a snicker bar with a mountain dew. That is the nastiest thing that I have ever seen. | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 458 Registered: 6-2004 |
You think so? I remember a former manager who drank Diet Pepsi's while she ate Hershey chocolate bars on a daily basis. |
