| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2085 Registered: 12-2003  |
So true, Stan. Adventists are afraid of Satan. They are both fascinated by and fearful of the occult, evil, psychic manifestations, etc. I am more and more convinced that their approach-avoidance with the "dark side" is a result of Ellen's spiritual compromise. She spoke "noble" things, warning the faithful against Satan, the enemy and the devil, as Jeremy points out. At the same time, she claimed revelations from God that came from dreams guided by a handsome young man who, in her later years, directed all her "prophetic" dreams. And, as Syndney Cleveland has documented in his book White Washed, she expereicned classic occult phenomenon such as the scent of roses during visions and seeing pretty colors, etc. The fact that she spent so much more time warning people about Satan and evil than she did literally preaching the gospel of God's grace tips her hand as well. ADventism's fear of the demonic reminds me of people you occasionally meet: you know, the "enforcer" personality type who becomes out-of-proportion angry with certain sins, insisting that all access to such sins be eliminated and the disobedient severely punished, when all the while their anger against said transgressors and against said sins is covering up their own deep vulnerability to that sin? Adventists are, indeed, vulnerable to the attraction of demonic evil because they are not secure in Christ. Evil is not an equal force that is warring for our souls against God. Evil is a subset of creation. God is outside of and sovereign over all creation, and He is sovereign over evil as well. If you picture all creation as a circle, "evil" would be a small circle INSIDE the circle of creation, and God would be outside and around the whole thing. We would be born into that small circle labeled "evil". The new birth would make it possible for us to escape that confining circle. Ellen painted a picture of us being caught between two cosmic forces: God and Satan. It's a false picture. Yes, Satan is bigger than we are, and from our position inside the circle of evil, both God and Satan look large and outside our sphere. In reality, though, Satan is subject to God and is not the powerful force Ellen painted him to be. In reality, he is already defeated (Col. 2:13-15); he's just making a lot of noise as the number of his days grows shorter. We do need to allow Jesus to guard our hearts against deception and distraction. I believe that all Christians--and perhaps especially those of us who have already been deceived by cultic teachings--are vulnerable to deception. We need to daily put on the armor of God (Ephe 6:10-18). We must identify our enemy if we are to have power over him. But when we stand, armed with God's armor, with our eyes open to the Spirit's promptings of truth, we have nothing to fear. Yes, we have to choose to surrender to Jesus the things in our lives that pull us toward distraction and deception. Yes, we have to let the Holy Spirit convict us of the things we must give up. No, we do not need to fear Satan's power when we are alive in Jesus and choosing to live by the Spirit. In Him, we have the power of Jesus to protect us from Satan. Ellen really had this one wrong! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 912 Registered: 7-2003  |
Wow! Those are some big numbers. I don't want to minimize, because I do know "the devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour", but do we really need to see him around every corner at every moment? Doesn't that have to take our mind off Christ, if we're trying to see Satan everywhere? Like Chris mentioned, I heard the hullabalu about D&D when I was a kid, but it always seemed overkill to me...not that I ever played it. But if someone uses the term "magic", it becomes acts of satan. Is it "wrong", for example, to like the old tv sitcom "Bewitched" because it's "Satanic" (because it's also really funny)? It seems so hard to balance legitimate awareness of evil forces at work around us and becoming consumed with labelling them before they "get" us. As someone else said, lots in Christianity focus so much on what Satan can do.... I'm so busy worrying about what I screw up myself, it's hard to look out for Satan too. How easy it must be to blame all shortcomings on Satan rather than yourself. At least that's how it seems to me. Thanks for the input, guys. It has been very enlightening. I don't know why I continue to be amazed. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 371 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jeremy for posting those stats. I knew you would be able to produce them, and with such rapidity-Wow! Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 727 Registered: 10-2004  |
Something I just realized recently is that Satan is merely a demon--a fallen angel. He is not some great being with tons of power. SDA/EGW teach that Satan was "the highest angel"--but I don't think the Bible even hints at that, as far as I know. He may have just been one of the regular-rank angels. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 06, 2005) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 820 Registered: 7-2003  |
*If* Isaiah 14 is talking about not just the king of Babylon, but also about Satan, then it appears to describe him in a "kingly" way. Perhaps this is where the idea came from. Or perhaps it comes Revelation 12 where "Michael and his angels" are pitted against "the dragon and his angels". This seems to create some sort of parralel between the archangel Michael and Satan in that both lead a group of angels. Tha fact is, we really don't know much at all about the Enemy. What we do know is that he is a created being and is therefore not omnipotent nor omnipresent. Since Satan can only be in one place at one time, it is highly unlikely that anyone on this board has ever been personally tempted by Satan himself. And even if we experience temptation at the hands of one of his minions, they are unable to make us do anything. They have no power over us except that which is given to them. As Melissa mentioned, the book of James tells us that most of our temptations (and failures) come from our own lust. Chris | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dear Jesus my daily prayer is that I not discard something I was taught as an SDA just because I learned it while I was an Adventist. I pray for discernment and the Holy Spirit's presence as I study your Word and open my heart to your Voice. Heal the hurts and wounds I have received at the hands of SDAs that make it difficult to trust and allow myself to be vulnerble with others that carry that label. Strip away the prejudices and stereotypes I carry about those who are different than me. May I see them only with your eyes as a child of God. May I love them and lift them up in prayer and encourage them by my life and words. Thank you Jesus for giving me friends on this forum who can inspire and encourage and yes at times even annoy me.  They are precious and so very important to me. Keep them each one. Amen PS: God has really had to work on me when I visit some traditional churches and feel a little above it all after experiencing "WORSHIP" and the emotion of really being in His presence. I'm reminded that He is everywhere that a son or daughter is calling upon His name. He will come to each of us in different ways. It is NOT in my job description to decide who has the correct spirit of worship. It is in my job description to love each and EVERY person he places in my path and show them the love of Jesus Christ. I also strongly feel that it is NOT in my job description to put down or make fun of those with different beliefs than myself. God calls me to quietly and with love open to others the truths He has placed in His word and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work of conviction. Am I always successful in what I feel God has called me to do?? NOPE I to often slip and allow a different spirit to manifest itself but I know He will never give up on me and will continue to make me a work in progress. One lesson I've STARTED to learn is that I don't need to always prove I'm right as long as I rest humbly in Gods presence. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris I was gong to add a note on the above post but I realized my PS was bigger than my main post and I felt a PPS might be pushing things a little to far. I just erased what I was going to say, I think I have your email and will send it in email. Your sister and I had a great chat after church this weekend. I'll send when I get home. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2089 Registered: 12-2003 |
I just realized that my post above might sound as if I am minimizing the reality of spiritual warfare. Nothing could be further from the truth! The reason that we are to arm ourselves with the armor of God, after all, is for protection from the assaults from the rulers and authorities and spiritual forces of evil and powers of this dark world that Paul discusses in Ephesians 6 and Colossians 2:15. I don't think, however, that our struggle with these spiritual forces necessarily looks like temptation as we normally think of it. I believe that we meet great opposition from the enemy when we commit ourselves to live for Christ, and sometimes we don't recognize it as spiritual warfare. ADventists, I believe, are fightened of the devil as they expect to meet him, but they are generally unaware of the reality of spiritual opposition. In fact, Adventist missionaries are often not well-prepared to meet "the spiritula forces of evil" when they are sent to "the field", and they suffer for it. I keep thinking of the girl I mentioned before who went to India from our church; her mission organization didn allow her to go until she had 100 prayer partners committed to intercede for her. I believe Adventists' (and probably many other North American Christians') biggest problem with Satan is picturing him as something he is not--and thus opening themselves to deception and spiritual attack about which they have no understanding. Praise God for Jesus and His shed blood! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1597 Registered: 3-2004  |
The thing I most like about being a Christian is the emphasis on Jesus Christ and what He did for each of us, for me, in particular. I do not worry about Satan any more. I want to worship Jesus each day and do what He wants me to do each day. And we only have one day at a time. I know, now, that I am led astray by my own ideas that I dwell on. When I dwell on and in Jesus Christ, I do not dwell on the things that can lead me astray. Jesus is on my mind all the time. For that I am so thankful. There is no comparison to what I was as an SDA. Being a Christian is so much better. God is wonderful and so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 400 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, It is my understanding that the reason the SDAs are adding the 28th doctrine next month is because their missionaries are increasingly encountering the occult in the third world. They don't know how to approach or grapple with this strange phenomenon (i.e., witches, demon-possession, voo-doo, etc.). Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dennis what is the 28th fundamental? I guess I'm not to well "plugged in" and haven't heard of it. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 401 Registered: 4-2000 |
Seekr777, I don't know the precise language in the proposed 28th doctrine, but its need is reported due to the occult encounter in the third world. The GC Session in St. Louis will most likely adopt this 28th doctrine. I think it addresses a need for a relationship with Jesus, etc. Again, I have not seen any draft. The slogan and theme song at the forthcoming GC Session is designed to focus on the need for this new doctrine. They have received alot of criticism through the years for the 27 fundamentals that do not specifically promote a relationship with Christ. Hopefully, someone else on this forum can give a more precise analysis of this doctrinal proposal. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2092 Registered: 12-2003 |
I read the proposed wording in the Review several months ago. I don't remember it well, but you're right, Dennis--one of the primary reasons they're adding it is to address the problems the missionaries have encountered with spiritism--for which they're not at all prepared. The 28th fundamental addresses a continuing relationship with Jesus and, if I remember right, some mention of life in the Spirit. It was a fairly innocuous-sounding belief and addressed growing in the Lord through continuing Bible study and prayer. (Part of the explanation for this addition was that the church had no stated directive for how to have a realtionship with Christ in an ongoing way.) It also addressed the spiritual realm and the Holy Spirit in the life as well as demonic forces/spiritual warfare. I'm embarrassed to admit that I can't remember exactly how they addressed this issue. All I remember was that if was fairly unremarkable and generic in its wording, not something one could overtly criticze. I was left with the impression that it was all quite "vanilla" and basic--it said all the right things without really addressing the issues which make the underlying concerns troublesome in the first place. BTW, speaking of the GC, let's continue to remember to pray for God's will to be done, for truth to be known, for the Spirit of Adventism to be broken and exposed, and for those in bondage to deception or to dishonesty to be set free in Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 388 Registered: 5-2002 |
Whether you have 27 or 28 shades of lipstick in your makeup bag, it's still being put on the same pig. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2004 |
Of course, it is convenient for them to be able to use the term "Bible study," since that term already has a definition of "EGW study" to most Adventists, while outsiders wouldn't have a clue that it means anything other than Bible study. Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 383 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is a link to a critique of the 28th doctrine by the right wing Vance Ferrell. www.sdadefend.com/new-Doc-statement.htm Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 736 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow!!! I checked out the document at O'Ffill's site called "New Words for Witnessing" that Diana talked about in the first post of this thread, and it is totally sick and satanic and focusing on and lifting up satan. It is Satanism--nothing but Satan worship, basically. Here is the link: http://www.revivalsermons.org/witnessing/witness.pdf The subtitle should be, "How to Deceive People Into the Satanic Cult of Adventism." The whole argument is basically, that Satan controls God. In other words, Satan is God. And they say that Satan says, and that he is correct and would have a case, that "how can God take you to heaven and not take Satan and his angels back?" (if you believe the true Gospel). My reply: Because God is Sovereign and chose to damn Satan to hell and save ME! And Satan can't do a thing about it or say a word about it because GOD is Sovereign and can do ANYTHING HE WANTS! Hallelujah! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 07, 2005) | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2005 |
After looking at the sdadefend website about the 28th doctrine, I am amazed at the inconsistency with the other 27 Statements of Belief. Vance Ferrell's arguement against the 28th is all about how the "Heavenly Sanctuary" and the IJ doctrine are missing from it. Here is one of his complaints - "Throughout this Statement, it is assumed that, throughout our Christian life, we live in a state of once saved, always saved. In contrast, normal Christians keep crying to Jesus for help. But the liberal view, as given in this Statement, is radically different. It teaches that Christians live in a state of continually assured salvation because of the cross." And this is a PROBLEM he sees with the 28th Statement! He says that the 28th Statement leads one to believe that "the Cross took care of it all", which he sees as being WRONG!!! WOW!!! The problem I see with the 28th Statement is that it contradicts the theology of the SDA Church. It seems they want it both ways - to please everyone, or at least to sound "right" to the Christian community. But they cannot hold the other 27 and the 28th at the same time. Talk about confusing. It just gets worse! -tisha | ||
| Cy Registered user Username: Cy Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2005 |
I enjoyed the extraordinary irony of the quote at the bottom of Vance Ferrell's critique of the 28th Statement:
Praise God that I no longer accept any book besides the Bible! Cy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2096 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, the confusion grows murkier. I just read through the "New Words for Witnessing" document mentioned above. I am appalled--but, I guess, not truly surprised. The entire thing is based on false logic and straw-man arguments. If anyone really knows the Bible, his arguments would be easy to counter, but if a person really doesn't know the Bible, his approach would be completely confusing and guilt-producing. Once again, the deception--the deliberate use of false premises and suppositions--is really unconscienable. And Tisha, you're right about the wording about the cross contradicting Adventist doctrine. It reminds me of the metaphor I used to hear fairly frequently when I worked with Adventist Today: "Adventism is an umbrella big enough to cover all kinds of Adventists!" In other words, what you actually believe doesn't matter that much; what matters is that you stay in the church. Colleen |
