| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 382 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dr. Robert Morey has posted the following article on his website which to me is very shocking and disappointing if it is true. www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/deskof/drmorey/I+Told+You+So.htm There has been a big trend in liberal Adventism towards Universalism. But, is everyone's hero of the faith falling for this deception too? As Dr. Morey said, we need to pray for Dr. Graham. Has anyone else been aware of Graham holding to these beliefs? Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2004  |
Well I have read many things about Billy Graham and some problems with him, on the internet over the years. I don't know exactly what he believes, but I don't think he believes in Universalism. Even according to what Robert Morey says, I don't think Billy Graham is teaching that everyone will be saved, merely that it is possible for someone to be saved who has never heard of Jesus. There is a big difference there. And I think Graham has believed that for a long time. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 07, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 384 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I should have used the term qualified universalism. This teaching says that all people will be saved, unless they have specifically heard the gospel and rejected salvation through Christ, and if they have tried to live a good life and have lived up to the light they have. This is the same teaching advocated by many liberal SDAs including Dan Smith. We are seeing so much of this type of teaching creep into the Christian church all over, and Morey's point is this type of teaching does not pass the Biblical test, and is potentially very serious. Because, why do crusades, and evangelize, if "good people" will be better off if they haven't had the chance to reject the gospel. I have been personally blessed by the ministry of Billy Graham, but I have been disappointed in his lack of clarity when it comes to the full proclamation of the gospel at times. I did hear the tapes of the interview Graham did with Robert Schuller and I have to tell you, they are very troubling. But at the time I chalked it up to the aging process. But it is also troubling to hear about that article from USA Today just recently, although I have not read the article, but if he was attacking Christians who believe the Biblical view of salvation, then that is a problem. Again, Ihave been blessed by his ministry, and I am sure God has worked mightily through him, and we can still be thankful for that. Robert Morey is very credible. He has been up front in opposing Dr Walter Martin on Adventism, and Morey definitely believes Adventism is a cult. He has expressed interest to me in writing about Adventism in the near future. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 735 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I do agree that it is a false teaching. "This is the same teaching advocated by many liberal SDAs including Dan Smith." Actually, I thought that was standard, traditional Adventist doctrine. I know that's what I was taught and believed growing up. I'm not sure if EGW directly teaches it, but I thought all SDAs believed that way. They even believe that those in "Babylon" will be saved if they "live up to the light they have." Jeremy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 832 Registered: 7-2003  |
Before tossing Billy Graham overboard as an "apostate" who has left the "path of righteousness" as Morey does, one ought to read Graham's actual quotes in the USA Today article. One more thing to keep in mind as you read, anyone who has ever been interviewed for the newspaper or a magazine will tell you that reporters tend to extrapolate quite a bit from what you actually say and then fill in the blanks with their own thoughts. Having personally experienced this with some interviews I've done for professional magazines I've come to read articles with a dicerning eye for what the person being interviewed actually says versus what the reporter says in the reporters words. So to be fair to a Christian man that has spent his life working for the Lord, read what Graham actually says in quotation marks and then make your judgment as to if Morey can rightfully judge Graham as an apostate based on these quotes. I'll be interested in your thoughts. http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-05-15-graham-cover_x.htm Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 385 Registered: 3-2005 |
Chris, Thanks for digging up the original article. I went to the USA web site and couldn't find it. While there are some problems I see, it doesn't fit the description that Morey gives it, and he may be out of line on this. But the 1997 interview with Robert Schuller was more revealing, and it did appear that he did not hold an orthodox view. He did clearly affirm on those tapes, that it wasn't necessary to consciously believe in Jesus to be saved, but that it was enough just to believe in God and live a good life. I will have to find the transcript of those tapes. But overall Billy Graham has been a great man of God. He has been thoroughly honest in all his dealings with finances, and most importantly millions of people will be in heaven because of the work God has done through him. Thanks again, Chris. Maybe this time Morey has overreached. But his book called "Death and the afterlife" is very good, as well as several other books. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh yeah, that's the same article I saw a couple weeks back. And I wondered why they even gave it the title they did. None of his quotes even really seemed to fit the title of the article. For Morey to say that "he lashed out against fundamentalists, Christians, and the right-wing conservatives" is totally unfounded and wrong. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 07, 2005) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 387 Registered: 3-2005 |
Another big difference between liberal Adventists who hold to qualified universalism, and Graham's statements in the past which suggest that he might hold this view, is that Graham clearly believes in the substitutionary atonement whereas the liberal Adventists do not. Qualified universalism is actually a neo-orthodox doctrine, and I was disappointed to hear that F.F.Bruce supposedly believed this doctrine towards the end of his life. I am actually disappointed in Dr. Robert Morey, as I believe he totally misrepresented the USA Today article, and that should never be done by reputable apologists, as I have usually known him to be, but I suspect he made a snap judgment based on his previous experience based on those earlier tapes. I am going to try emailing him on this issue, and see if i get a response. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 388 Registered: 3-2005 |
I did some searching for those original 1997 comments that got Billy Graham in a lot of trouble with other Christians, and it did cause a big stir at the time. I have to double apologize for this hate filled blog, where the comments of concern to people like John MacArthur and Morey are found. This is a blog that illustrates the extremes of Hyper-Calvinism, and the unChristlike spirit that you will see. Anyway, with that disclaimer, let me know what you think of Graham's comments to Schuller, and see if they present a problem to you. www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy/52.htm Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 389 Registered: 3-2005 |
That link is not working for some reason, but if you go to www.outsidethecamp.org and scroll down on the left until you come to heterodoxy hall of shame and click on that, and then scroll down to the Schuller- Graham section, then you will find the comments in question. Stan | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 835 Registered: 7-2003 |
I do not agree with Billy Graham's comments in this interview. If I understand the thrust of what he is saying, he seems to be affirming that Jesus is the way of salvation, but that salvation may be applied to some who are not consciously aware that it is Jesus they are following. One of may favorite Christian authors, C.S. Lewis, also believed this. In the last book in the Narnia series "The Last Battle" he created minor character, a foreign soldier who had always served the only god he knew (a false god of a different land). In the story, it is stated that in serving this god to the best of his ability while showing love, compassion, and kindness to others, he was really doing this for Aslan (the Christ figure in the Narnia stories). I happen to adamantly disagree with both men on this point. I don't believe it is any more possible for a modern person to serve the demon gods of Hinduism and be somehow serving Christ then I think it was possible for Israel to serve YHWH and Baal. But even as much as I disagree with these men on this point, I think it goes way too far to call them "unregenerate" as Billy Graham is called in this article. I think one need only look at the life and writings of both men to see the fruits of the Spirit. I dare say every single one of us has some doctrinal errors incorporated into our belief system (although some are more far reaching and serious than others). May the Holy Spirit lead us to all Truth. May He soften our hearts to accept correction, reproof, and guidance. May He correct our errors and cause us to bend the the knee to God as we apprehend the truth of His Word. Chris | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 390 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen, Chris, I think we have come to a point of full agreement on what you just posted above. The only thing that the USA Today article pointed out was the differences between Billy and his son Franklin. I have been observing over the years that when Billy does an interview with the media, I just sense some slight compromise when he is asked about Jesus being the only way of salvation. Whereas with Franklin, there is no spirit of compromise, but instead ther is clarity with regard to the gospel, and it is so refreshing to see that. I remember after 9/11, Franklin clearly stated that Islam was an evil and wicked religion. That is a far cry from his father's statement that you can be saved if you are a good Muslim. Also the article mentioned some reluctance on Billy's part to pray in the name of Jesus, whereas Franklin did just that and angered a lot of people when he prayed in the name of Jesus at Bush's inauguration. And the last problem I saw in the article is Billy Graham's very tolerant attitude toward Catholicism. I mean he shouldn't go out of his way to antagonize them, but to work hand in hand giving the impression that RCC is equally valid seems to be a problem. But, Chris, that last paragraph in your last post is so correct. We all have doctrinal errors, but I believe that not one of us as Christians, even if their names are Graham or Morey, are above Berean scrutiny on the things that we say. Stan | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 |
A few thoughts which touch on Billy Graham's beliefs and Universalism, if I may. One thing various forums on the topic of religion or beliefs has revealed to me personally is the depth and saturation of the false self in even as innocent a thing as making a post or dialoging or debating on forums. It never fails to make me feel good when my position, stated or argued, appears to be accepted by those participating on a given forum, - especially the majority! The identification of that reaction is known by the name PRIDE! And whenever I receive such an emotion, should I recognize it, - I am taking glory to myself while all glory is to go to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, while my mouth is to be stopped. I don't mean my comments to come across as some high position of righteous judgment; yet I would like to suggest a balance - if balance is possible, since most of us hold personal convictions that "we KNOW are right!" :c) One question that remains unresolved in my mind is how a God "who is love" 1 Jn 4:8 will deal with the billions of souls, livng and dead, who were born innocently as to their having any say about it, a Hindu, Buddhist, Tootsie, Pigmy, Islamic, etc., etc., etc. Yes, I say this in full knowledge of the messages, such as Jn 6:29, 37,40,44; 14:6, etc. I admit to the fascination of debate and while I choose not to become sucked into debate, I do enjoy healthy dialog and sharing. But there again, I recognize the temptation to slip into effort to convince others to see and embrace "my position." The Spirit of Truth is to always be our Teacher, leading us into and back to the things Jesus taught. (Jn 14:26) I am not acquainted with all the information referred to wherein it is said Billy Graham seemed to slip away from the authentic Gospel toward embracing Universalism. I only know of the admiration I have for his dedication to being a true Evangelist and not a Proselytizer as virtually all "said evangelists" within Adventism are. I admire Mr. Graham for uplifting Jesus instead of making the high point of his crusades, the night in which the "Sabbath" is presented, as the first BIG stepping stone leading to the other BIG ones, like the Mark of the Beast, God's "true prophet," Church Standards, soul sleep, and ending with an invitation to JOIN God's "true and only remnant." The aim being to make Adventists out of as many attending as possible. But back to Universalism again and my original question of how God will deal with every single created soul: Eph 1:10 refers to "the mystery of His will...." Yes it is "purposed in Christ" yet Paul still calls it "a mystery." Some mysteries are revealed by revelation. Eph 3:3 and in Eph 6:19 he calls the Gospel "a mystery." 1 Tim 3:6 we have "the mystery of godliness...." Rev 10:7 "the mystery of God will be accomplished...." Rom 11:33 "...how unsearchable His judgments - his paths beyond tracing out!" Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord." Vs. 11 says "his word/ His will - will accomplish what He desires and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." And we are reminded in Ps 145:17 "The Lord is righteous in all His ways..." In spite of all the Biblical arguments, for my thinking, I absolutely do not KNOW exactly how God will enact His Judgment, what is in His mind and will, and how He will justly, yet as a God who IS Love itself, deal with any or all who have never heard the name Jesus or the Gospel of His Grace. All I have is what is in the Scriptures themselves, and virtually everyone holds their own personal convictions or leanings as to EXACTLY what all was and is meant by those words. As Scripture declares, who on earth can understand all God's judgments and chart His paths? And who can read God's thoughts? I personally, am forced to conclude that upon that which I personally do NOT KNOW, and which God has not personally revealed to ME; silence is golden. I am not suggesting that anyone on this forum is acting out the part of Martha. However, I am inviting us to consider and be aware of the principle which seems to be couched in that story of Lk 10:41 when Jesus said, "Martha, (Jess) you are worried and upset about many things, but only ONE THING is needed. Mary (those who abide in me, who keep their eyes fixed upon me, who contemplate upon Me) has chosen what is better...." No matter what Billy Graham's beliefs are or appear to be; I feel great love and admiration for he and Ruth Graham and pray God's tender mercies wrap them up in peace and joyful assurance and support them with loving, healing Grace as they suffer their physical afflictions in their declining years, which I myself am approaching all to quickly. I pray with increasing urgency for the message of the authentic Gospel to spread like a righteous plague around the world, and for that area of who "all" will be saved, I shall trust that however it plays out, I will know that the justice of God is also LOVE. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:28-30) "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen BY GRACE. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no loner be grace." (Rom 11:5,6 - emphasis mine). To God be all glory and all praise to His Majesty, King Jesus. Jess | ||
| Tisha Registered user Username: Tisha Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well stated, Jess! -tisha | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2003  |
Jess, thanks for your comments, they brought together my thoughts very well. We are children of a Just and Merciful God who loves with a perfect love. I will rest in His hands and trust in His justice. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2005 |
I just want to clarify, Richard, that the unknowing part - at least there remains a question in my mind - pertains not to believers but to those who have not heard the Gospel. Perhaps God's Spirit has attempted to draw them in otherways we or they are unaware of. I'm reminded also of those who have eyes and ears, but see not and hear not. But as for true believers, we can rest absolutely ROCK solid with true knowing our salvation is SURE as the Rock of Ages it is founded upon. As for all the others, I only have one bottom-line position, and that is to trust in the Loving Father to make a just and righteous decision regarding all those other cultures and races and tribes. I am relieved that I will have no part in deciding who is saved and who is lost among the untold millions. But isn't resting in His hands a perfect place to be? :c) My beard is as white as yours, by the way. :c) Jess | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 163 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jess, I'm sure this text is familiar to you and I'm interested in your comments. Romans 2:14-16 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. You'll need to put up a picture so we can compare white beards. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 395 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jess, I agree that we don't have all of the answers with regard to the question of the heathen. We do know thaat the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Rom. 10:17 And Rom. 10:14, "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" God works in many ways. I think it was Dennis awhile back who had linked an article where Ravi Zacharias had mentioned that 90% of all Muslims converted to the faith came to Christ through direct visions, therefore giving one mechanism how God insures that all His elect will be saved. All I know is that we can trust the whole process to God as you and Richard have stated. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2103 Registered: 12-2003  |
I have a friend who lives in Honduras (I believe I mentioned her a couple of weeks ago...). She works for a mission organization that goes into poverty-ridden villages and helps the inhabitants clean up, plant flowers, teaches them how to live healthfully, and teaches the gospel. She said that many of those isolated people who have never heard the gospel before tell her and her colleagues that they have sensed God and been aware of Him. The missionaries have explained Him and told them the rest of the story, so to speak. I am convinced that the text you quote above, Richard, from Romans 1 tells us the truth: all men are without excuse. The problem is that men have suppressed the knowledge of truth by their wickedness. General revelation does reveal God--but it doesn't reveal the details of Jesus. My take on the issue is that those who respond to God's revelation of Himself have hearts that are willing to embrace truth. They are receptive when they finally hear the gospel. God has already softened them and called them. While I don't pretend to know the mechanism of salvation in all instances, it does seem to me that a crucial issue is whether or not a person's heart is open to truth. Is a person willing to respond to truth as God reveals it, or not? That being said, I am not a universalist by any stretch of the imagination. Our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked, and only the Holy Spirit can change them to a state of willingness to know God. As my friend Norma said, "God doesn't NEED us, but He uses us." The visions of Jesus reported from among Muslim converts attest to this reality. God has uncounted ways of revealing Himself and His Son to the world--even the rocks can cry out if we fail to do so! The parable of the seeds tells us that the real issue is the condition of the soil. Are we willing to hear truth, accept it, and allow it to deeply penetrate our hearts and minds? If we are, we are saying Yes to God and to Jesus. When I think of how many years it took me to finally "see the light", I realize that God had His hand on me for decades before I realized where He was really going to lead me. Long before I experienced freedom in Jesus I wanted to be His--and I am convinced that I was! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 919 Registered: 7-2003  |
On the topic of visions revealing God, A pastor I know tells the story of a missionary woman he knew who had always wanted to go to a certain part of the world, but for various reasons she was delayed. A number of years passed, but she finally got to go. One of the tribal leaders met her as she arrived in the village and said "What took you so long?" Confused by the statement she asked what he meant. He said he had had a dream 30 years earlier that showed him a woman with long blond hair who would have all the answers to life and here she was, the woman with long blond hair, he had waited all these years for her to come tell him the answers. If that's not God preparing the way, I don't know what is....but they are certainly not all met that way. I don't know any of the hows and wheres to those who are in remote parts of the world, only what the Bible specifically says. The rest is just speculation with the knowledge that we serve a just God. Whatever the answer is, it will be the right one. (Message edited by melissa on June 09, 2005) |
