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Riverfonz
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Post Number: 353
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob,

That is great! I would like to get that book. Yes, it was that bewitching influence of the law, that moved Paul to use such a strong term as "bewitched" with regard to the Galatians in 3:1

Stan
Foreverscout
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 2:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boy, everyone here makes it all seem so difficult. Jeremy, I understand what you are saying, that I could be drawn into an argument by someone who wanted to argue, fortunately, I can not be drawn in, I know the type and I choose to walk away.

I hope that you understand that I completely understand that the laws are no longer binding on me. Christ's blood covers all.

However you can not deny that to live a good life and to feel good about yourself, those ten laws come in handy.

If I don't kill, covet, steal, commit adultry, lie, etc, my life is going to run a lot smoother and I am probably going to like myself a lot more.

A day off once a week is ok, personally I think two or three is way better. And I think that we should honor God, Son and Holy Spirit every single day of our lives! Can I have an AMEN!!!

Christ is expecting much greater things of us than these laws if you think about it, we still have much to live up to. Christ gave us the Sermon on the Mount.

But it's just not the same. The 10 commandments inspire fear. In the Sermon on the Mount, we WANT to live our best for Jesus out of love, out of gratitude for his gift of grace.

God knows that I am trying to live up to this and he blesses me for this, he also knows that I am failing, and he doesn't condemn me.

Where else are you gonna find love like that?!
Foreverscout
Bob
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 7:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"God knows that I am trying to live up to this, and he blesses me for this. . ."

Sorry, I have to disagree. Obedience to God is a fruit of our being in Christ, but if God is blessing us, it is ONLY because of His Son's obedience, credited to us - not our meager and incomplete efforts to conform to "shoulds" and "oughts" - even if they are in the Ten Commandments.
Jeremy
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foreverscout,

Of course I believe that we shouldn't steal, lie, etc. But that is because the New Covenant (the Law of Christ/Messiah) tells us we shouldn't do those things. We aren't doing that in obedience to the Ten Commandments. We are doing it in obedience to Jesus Christ (as you pointed out at the end of your post) by walking in the Spirit. So it actually has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments--which can only produce fruit for death (Romans 7). That was my point to begin with.


quote:

"So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:4-6 NIV)




Jeremy
Dd
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forever,
I understand what you are saying and I know that what you are saying is almost a mirror of what Jeremy and Bob have said - but not quite.

I think we have heard the "perfect 10" trumpeted and praised for so long that it is just second nature for us to combine grace and commandment keeping.

It hit me one day, as I was contemplating this very point, that I chose to remain faithful to my husband not because it is part of the "10" but because I love him. The perfect "10" left a great deal out. No where does it say, "Don't talk about my mother-in-law behind her back" but I choose to chase the negative and replace it with Christ's love. It is living beyond the "10"!

I don't have to be good to be saved BUT I do have to be saved to be good!

Riverfonz
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Post Number: 356
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good discussion everyone. This whole law issue as many have been saying, is a difficult issue for most of the Christian church, not just to SDAs. The more I have visited other churches, the more I see the same patterns I saw growing up SDA. Fundamentalism is a spirit that is live and well. Somehow, the Bible can't be trusted as being all sufficient revelation to these folks. They add on many of the same stupid rules, we are used to as SDAs.

I believe Paul,(and the Lord who directly gave Paul his message), had a very good reason for not commanding adherence to the Decalogue. Because, certainly, if the Decalogue was still binding that particular book would have been the place for this to be clarified! I don't understand why even good Reformed folks like R.C. Sproul and others don't see this. What did Paul say? "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." And he mentions the 9 fruits of the Spirit, "Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW!"

The truth of the matter, it is so much more difficult to live by the nine fruits, than it is the Decalogue, and that is why many go back to the old way of the written code. I am so thankful for the marvelous truths of the New Covenant. I pray that God will continue to lift the veil from people as they study His Word.

Stan
Susan_2
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stardoc, do your kin tell you the line about sunday-keeping being more easy and conveinent? That people just want to give up the sabbath because it is too inconveinent? I have heard that line all my life. And, living here in the USA I just don't believe sunday is more conveinent that saturday. BTW, my son just got back recently from living in Italy for a year. The kids over there go to school every day except Sundays. How do the Adventists over in countries that have mandatory school, or whatever the situtation calls for deal with it in those countries?
Pw
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, I know that mentality from my own personal stint within the SDA. I developed that attitude towards those who worshipped on Sundays. Sure, it's easy to go to church for a couple hours and the head to a mall, restuarant or home and do chores or watch ball games for the rest of the day. Boy, what it really boiled down was jealousy, they had the freedom I thought I had!
Foreverscout
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not the 10 that I am trying to live up to, it's the Sermon on the Mount that I am WANTING to live up to.

Somehow no one is understanding me, obviously partly this is because I have never been SDA; I am not coming from the same place that you all are. I will try better to explain. In my family we were not trying to be perfect. My whole life I have understood that the 10 are impossible, I have always known that I would never begin to come close, and that is why Christ's sacrifice was necessary.

I have always realized we were INSTEAD called to be Christ-like, out of love and gratitude for Him. I now realize that what Christ has called us to live like, in the Sermon on the Mount, is actually more difficult. But in my love for Him I want so much to please Him, that I will continue with much prayer to try because I want to. It's not a commandment, it's a DESIRE! The desire planted in my heart when I asked Jesus to live there.

Bob, the word blessed can also mean happy and that is how I am using it here. Let me explain how I came to understand this so clearly. About 7 months ago I heard or read, (and I can't even remember where), someone say, "...is your life blessable?" It didn't even stay with me at first, but somehow that sentence stuck in my mind because I began to examine my life. I began to make the changes I knew were necessary. Nothing earth-shattering, these were not noticeable for the most part, they were between me and the Lord. I think my family probably sees changes in me. But what happened afterwards as far as blessings, well, that was huge, and they poured in as soon as one month after I began making these changes in my life. God is faithful. If you want to know exactly what these blessings are, tell me, I will write another letter.

What I am saying here lines up with 1John 3:21-24. I am not saying that God will give me anything I ask Him for, God chooses how, when, and where to answer prayer and sometimes the answer is no. I know that it is all for my good.

He is good to me!
Foreverscout


Dd
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forever,
I am with you! I like your comment..."It's not a commandment, it's a DESIRE!" You said it perfectly.

I also like your meaning of "blessed" as "happy"..."Happy are the poor in spirit...Happy are those who mourn...Happy are the meek...Happy are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness...Happy are the merciful...Happy are the pure in heart...Happy are the peacemakers...Happy are those who are persecuted...Happy are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you...!"

Those are strong and powerful statements...they only point to Jesus because how could we ever find that kind of happiness on our own!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights. I have appreciated this discussion.
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am just catching up with thread. It appears to me that we all want the same thing, but no one mentioned how it is received. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us to live the life God wants for us. When we accept Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit, who had begun working in our lives who knows how far back, begans to teach us in ways we can now see and understand. It is the Holy Spirit that strengthens the desire we have to serve God and because God sends the Holy Spirit to help us in our daily lives, we are able to live the lives God wants for us.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Diana
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Diana--it's the Holy Spirit's work in us. Romans 8 discusses this reality in detail. Paul really emphasizes that the law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the law of sin and death, and we are not controlled by the sinful nature if we have the Spirit of God living in us--and if we don't have the spirit of Christ, we do not belong to Christ.

Your desire to change your life, Scout--is because you have the Spirit of Christ--but then, you already know that!

Obedience is real in a Christian's life--but now we're being obedient the Spirit of God living in us. That's what Matthew 5 through 7 were all about--Jesus was revealing what life in the Spirit would look like. He was also revealing how this type of life would only be possible if people responded to Him instead of seeing the law as leading to spiritual success.

Scout, you are an amazing example of God's miraculous power in a life! Thank you for being here and sharing with us!

Colleen
Stardoc57
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Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan2
Thanks for the question. I haven't heard that exact question, but they do think that I was looking for an excuse. I think that they can't understand how someone could study himself out of the church. I've been told that I need to listen to the Holy Spirit and read the context of the verses. Funny to be told that by SDAs isn't it?

I wish that they would believe me when I tell them of my tearful and sleepless nights wrestling with the internal conflict of reconciling the Bible with my SDA training. It would have been easier to not follow the Bible and to stick with the SDA beliefs, but they don't believe it.
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To be honest...I prefer attending worship on Saturdays for selfish reasons...you get it done and can concentrate on the weekends activities. So to me Sunday is a much bigger inconvienience...I would much prefer corporate worship on a weeknight and leave the weekends to rest and relax but that is just me...and since I love to congregate with my Southern Baptist people on Sunday...I go. But I wish they met on Saturday.
Esther
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Post Number: 233
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I KNOW!! :-)
I prefer Saturdays too. Somehow changing over to Sunday is just a very hard concept as I always feel like...well, getting up for church on Sunday throws me for a loop. I guess growing up with Sunday as MY day, is hard to get over.

I know what you're saying Stardoc. No matter what texts I quote or how much context I give (at the expense of pages of writing) somehow I'm the one who's misunderstanding. It really is like talking another language.

Colleen, earlier when you gave the history of Isaiah and 2 Kings, it hit me again how little I really know about the individual books of the Bible. In all my years of "Christian Education" I really learned very little. It was kind of shocking for me the first time i really realized that the order of the books didn't really relate to their dates.

I've been reading that link to Justin's dialogue this week and it is REALLY good. Wow! So much insight into scripture and God's dealings and how the Jews really missed so much. One of the things I found especially interesting was that when Trypho asked Justin if a person really couldn't be saved while keeping the law Justin answered: that he felt they could if they observed portions of the law for their own desires (ie wanting to keep Sabbath), however if that person slipped into trying to teach others to keep those same "preferences" he felt he couldn't be sure of their salvation.

It kind of took me back. For one, since SDAism revolves entirely around teaching others to keep the laws, I must pray with even more fervor for my friends and family. And two, I wonder if even the things that I hold to strongly, though fine for me (maybe)should not be something I lay conviction on for others.

But my favorite quote is this (though there are soooo many)

quote:

"There will be no other God, O Trypho, nor was there from eternity any other existing" (I thus addressed him), "but He who made and disposed all this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us, another for you, but that He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other (for there is no other), but in Him in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. But we do not trust through Moses or through the law; for then we would do the same as yourselves. But now21 -(for I have read that there shall be a final law, and a covenant, the chiefest of all, which it is now incumbent on all men to observe, as many as are seeking after the inheritance of God. For the law promulgated on Horeb is now old, and belongs to yourselves alone; but this is for all universally. Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law-namely, Christ-has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy, after which there shall be no law, no commandment, no ordinance. Have you not read this which Isaiah says: `Hearken unto Me, hearken unto Me, my people; and, ye kings, give ear unto Me: for a law shall go forth from Me, and My judgment shall be for a light to the nations. My righteousness approaches swiftly, and My salvation shall go forth, and nations shall trust in Mine arm? '22 And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: `Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt'23 ). If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.




Riverfonz
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stardoc,
I liked what you said about wrestling with tears, and sleepless nights, trying to reconcile SDA with the Bible. I had the same experience, and long arguments with family members, but thankfully, God has done a great work in some of their hearts. He is faithful!

Stan
Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Esther, yes, I know, it is sooo good! Another of my favorite quotes is this:


quote:

For it was told you by Moses in the book of Genesis, that God granted to Noah, being a just man, to eat of every animal, but not of flesh with the blood, which is dead."49 And as he was ready to say, "as the green herbs," I anticipated him: "Why do you not receive this statement, `as the green herbs, 'in the sense in which it was given by God, to wit, that just as God has granted the herbs for sustenance to man, even so has He given the animals for the diet of flesh? But, you say, a distinction was laid down thereafter to Noah, because we do not eat certain herbs. As you interpret it, the thing is incredible. And first I shall not occupy myself with this, though able to say and to hold that every vegetable is food, and fit to be eaten. But although we discriminate between green herbs, not eating all, we refrain from eating some, not because they are common or unclean, but because they are bitter, or deadly, or thorny.

--http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4224_840468




Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on June 03, 2005)
Esther
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes! I loved that one too. I could start a whole thread just listing the article.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for sharing the Justin quotes, Esther and Jeremy! I love this sentence, "Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God."

Stardoc, you expressed so well what I have felt many times--the wrestling with what the Bible said as opposed to what Adventism said was intense, and it would have been MUCH easier to stick with Adventism. One of the most personally annoying observations I've heard from Adventists is that we left because we didn't want to bear the burden of following the law; we wanted to "take the easy way out".

Wrong! Doing what we did was the HARD way! But it has also been the most peaceful, rewarding, humbling, awesome way!

Colleen
Jeremy
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Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Esther, I know, I almost started a thread posting a bunch of excerpts from it, when I first read it (I haven't read the whole thing--but I have read quite a bit of it).

The SDAs need to read it!

I'll share a few more quotes:


quote:

Chapter XII.-The Jews Violate the Eternal Law, and Interpret ILL that of Moses.

I also adduced another passage in which Isaiah exclaims: "`Hear My words, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given Him for a witness to the people: nations which know not Thee shall call on Thee; peoples who know not Thee shall escape to Thee, because of thy God, the Holy One of Israel; for He has glorified Thee.'24 This same law you have despised, and His new holy covenant you have slighted; and now you neither receive it, nor repent of your evil deeds. `For your ears are closed, your eyes are blinded, and the heart is hardened, 'Jeremiah25 has cried; yet not even then do you listen. The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.

Chapter XIII.-Isaiah Teaches that Sins are Forgiven Through Christ's Blood.

"For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed26 those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason, as Isaiah himself said, when he spake thus: [Then he quotes portions of Isaiah 52-53]




This next quote is extremely fascinating:


quote:

Chapter XVIII.-Christians Would Observe the Law, If They Did Not Know Why It Was Instituted.

"For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements. Wash therefore, and be now clean, and put away iniquity from your souls, as God bids you be washed in this laver, and be circumcised with the true circumcision. For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,-namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us,-I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?




That is exactly what the SDAs accuse the early Christians of doing--keeping Sunday and not Sabbath to avoid persecution!!! It is just horrible slander of these Christians, who were willing to DIE for Jesus!!


quote:

Chapter XXIII.-The Opinion of the Jews Regarding the Law Does an Injury to God.

"But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd. Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good. But if this be not so, tell me, sir, what you think of those matters which we are investigating." And when no one responded: "Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man.58 Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. So that it was justly recorded concerning the people, that the soul which shall not be circumcised on the eighth day shall be cut off from his family. And, furthermore, the inability of the female sex to receive fleshly circumcision, proves that this circumcision has been given for a sign, and not for a work of righteousness. For God has given likewise to women the ability to observe all things which are righteous and virtuous; but we see that the bodily form of the male has been made different from the bodily form of the female; yet we know that neither of them is righteous or unrighteous merely for this cause, but [is considered righteous] by reason of piety and righteousness.

[...]

And Trypho remarked, "What is this you say? that none of us shall inherit anything on the holy mountain of God? "

Chapter XXVI.-No Salvation to the Jews Except Through Christ.

And I replied, "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: `I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.'

[...]

Chapter XXVII.-Why God Taught the Same Things by the Prophets as by Moses.

And Trypho said, "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: `If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"69

And I replied, "I have passed them by, my friends, not because such prophecies were contrary to me, but because you have understood, and do understand, that although God commands you by all the prophets to do the same things which He also commanded by Moses, it was on account of the hardness of your hearts, and your ingratitude towards Him, that He continually proclaims them, in order that, even in this way, if you repented, you might please Him, and neither sacrifice your children to demons, nor be partakers with thieves, nor lovers of gifts, nor hunters after revenge, nor fail in doing judgment for orphans, nor be inattentive to the justice due to the widow nor have your hands full of blood. `For the daughters of Zion have walked with a high neck, both sporting by winking with their eyes, and sweeping along their dresses.70 For they are all gone aside, 'He exclaims, `they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. With their tongues they have practised deceit, their throat is an open sepulchre, the poison of asps is under their lips, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known.'71 So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it. But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day-even though it happen to be a Sabbath-those who are born shall be always circumcised? or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those-who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths-to keep these institutions? "

Chapter XXVIII.-True Righteousness is Obtained by Christ.

And Trypho replied, "We heard you adducing this consideration a little ago, and we have given it attention: for, to tell the truth, it is worthy of attention; and that answer which pleases most-namely, that so it seemed good to Him-does not satisfy me. For this is ever the shift to which those have recourse who are unable to answer the question."

Then I said, "Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ's coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hear yon.

[...]

Chapter XXIX.-Christ is Useless to Those Who Observe the Law.

"Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours.77 For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself.

[...]

Chapter XL.-He Returns to the Mosaic Laws, and Proves that They Were Figures of the Things Which Pertain to Christ.

"The mystery, then, of the lamb which God enjoined to be sacrificed as the passover, was a type of Christ; with whose blood, in proportion to their faith in Him, they anoint their houses, i.e., themselves, who believe on Him. For that the creation which God created-to wit, Adam-was a house for the spirit which proceeded from God, you all can understand. And that this injunction was temporary, I prove thus. God does not permit the lamb of the passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb,108 which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: the first, in which the elders of your people, and the priests, having laid hands on Him and put Him to death, sent Him away as the scape [goat]; and His second appearance, because in the same place in Jerusalem you shall recognise Him whom you have dishonoured, and who was an offering for all sinners willing to repent, and keeping the fast which Isaiah speaks of, loosening the terms109 of the violent contracts, and keeping the other precepts, likewise enumerated by him, and which I have quoted,110 which those believing in Jesus do. And further, you are aware that the offering of the two goats, which were enjoined to be sacrificed at the fast, was not permitted to take place similarly anywhere else, but only in Jerusalem.




Wow! Look at that. He proves that Christ had to have already come and fulfilled not only the Passover but the Day of Atonement, including the Scapegoat! And what I just thought of is, if it hasn't been fulfilled yet, then why don't the SDAs believe that they should still be performing the Scapegoat ceremony each year? They SHOULD be, if it hasn't been fulfilled (by Satan!!) yet.

Jeremy

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