| Author | Message | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2005 |
Now that I'm quite certain you ALL are reading this post based upon the subject line. Reminds me of when I worked with C.D. Brooks in the first integrated series in Newark, NJ. He used this subject title for presenting the Sabbath: "Adam's Mother's Birthday." He packed the house! This is actually intended to provide a bit of humor for everyone and is directed to Susan's post where she wrote: <Also, as I've mentioned previousely there is a lady in my community, a historical Adventist who has a bumper sticker on her car that says, "Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath. Do you?" Once again implying Jesus is to be our example and by inference denying His being fully God.> I couldn't help but think: Jesus never married, so why not a bumper sticker saying: Jesus never married, are you? We can carry this to rediculous lengths. Just wanted to give you all a Sunday morning chuckle. Have a PAGL* in Christ-filled day, JWD *Peace, Assurance, Gratitude and Love | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2082 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good point about making Jesus our "example" instead of our Savior, JWD. He came to pay the price for sin and to usher in the New Covenant, and in doing so, He revealed the Father. His purpose was NOT to be our example except in the sense of showing us how mercy and justice look in a righteous person. He was Lord of all, and as our Creator God, He could never be emulated. He was/is once-for-all. Colleen | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2005 |
Good points Jwd and Colleen. I needed to hear what you both had to say. It is so hard to think in a way outside of what I have have always known. I can't tell you how many times I have heard what that bumper sticker says, and it has always made sense until I just saw it in this new light. I am new to this site, and new to my journey of discovery about Adventism, and it is all so confusing and scary at the same time. I am doing a lot of praying, and I am thankful for everyone's stories and the input on this forum. I recently moved to an area where the SDA churches are so much different than what I have always known out west, and my husband and I would just feel so strange after church. One day I was asking God what to do, and a neighbor called and invited us to go to church with her. So, we did and it was wonderful and my husband loved it as well. I was excited that he was excited, because I have always prayed that he would seek a deeper relationship with Jesus. I was raised SDA (my husband was not), and I wanted to know for myself whether or not going to church on Sunday was as wrong and evil as I have been raised to believe. Now here I am. My parents have been upset, saying that I am trying to justify going to church on Sunday, but honestly it would be so much easier to be blissfully ignorant sitting on my pew every Saturday. I definitely would not be as conflicted and confused as I have been lately. But I am learning to see things in a new light, and I know that it is the Holy Spirit. I have often heard Adventists say, "be careful that you are not deceived," but Jesus says that He is faithful to complete His good work in us. I am earnestly praying and seeking, and I just don't think that God would turn a deaf ear to my prayers and let me be deceived like that. Thanks again! Julie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 783 Registered: 10-2004  |
Julie, welcome to the forum! You are right, you can trust the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. Jesus promised this for those of us who have been born again and have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. We can trust the Spirit to lead us, and we can confidently reject anything (and any prophet) that doesn't line up with the Bible. Remember, God has always accepted worship every day of the week, including Sundays! In fact, sometimes various Sabbaths in the Old Testament Law would fall on a Sunday. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 24, 2005) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2177 Registered: 12-2003 |
Julie, we're just glad you've joined us. Welcome! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1651 Registered: 3-2004  |
Julie, we worship God every day and have corporate worship on any day. I have mine Saturday evening, but there are 3 worship services on Sunday morning. But you will notice, it is not a sacred day because after church the members go to restaurents and go shopping, etc. Keep praying and then pray some more and read and study your Bible. God is leading you and He did not bring you this far to drop you. I have put you on my prayer list. God is holding you in His awesome arms and will not let go of you. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2005 |
Julie: I don't mean to be callous (sp), but how can wanting your husband to have a closer walk with God be "justifying"? Don't be drawn into that shame! Patria | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 938 Registered: 7-2003  |
I'm also curious, I tend to ask this when the issue of "Sunday" comes up...but do they really believe it is a sin to worship God one day (or 6 days, since only one is the 7th day)? I ask that to die hard SDAs and find that is the one question they absolutely cannot answer. Because if it's not a sin to worship God on Sunday, how on earth can it be a sin to go to church on Sunday (or Tuesday, Thursday, you get the idea). Your husband sounds like an incredible man, to go to the SDA church with you. Did he find himself biting his tongue a lot or could he pick up on the issues if your church was more grace oriented? | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2005 |
Melissa, My husband has always argued that point. There is really nothing you can say to that argument. My husband was probably confused most of the time when people started going off on weird tangents about EGW or other Adventist beliefs. Because of the pastor, the church was more grace oriented so he focused on that. When we moved to the mid west, the Adventist churches were a little off the wall to us. I remember one sermon where the pastor was telling the congregation they had better make sure they were keeping the sabbath correctly if they didn't want to face judgement for it. He mentioned that some members went out to lunch after church and that it was wrong. It was so cute that one little boy leaned over, with the the most incredulous look on his face, and asked his mom "what is wrong with going out to lunch after church?" She quickly quieted him. Then we heard that some members were starting a more grace based church, and when I showed interest a woman quickly informed me that I wanted nothing to do with it as they were charismatic. She reminded me of a fire-breathing dragon when she said that! I just saw where they opened that church, and I was thinking about going. But would that be just trying to have my cake and eat it too? For now we are going to keep praying, studying, and going to the church we have been going to on Sunday, and leave it in God's hands. I've seen my husband much more joyful and hopeful and interested in God than I ever have, and it is rubbing off on me too. | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2005 |
Diana, Thank you for your prayers! I need them. Julie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1653 Registered: 3-2004 |
Julie, It looks like God is leading your husband and you to where He wants you. Your husband is more joyful and hopeful and more interested in God. You say it is rubbing off on you. That sounds like God's Holy Spirit working in your lives. Keep studying and reading your Bible and let God lead. He will never take you the wrong way. I keep you in my prayers. Diana | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2003  |
I must have missed the "lesson/sermon" that was supposed to teach me that it was a sin to go to church on Sunday.  In the coarse of a month I'll probably be worshiping in church or small group almost everyday of the week. I guess I "sin" alot with all my worship on non "sabbath" days. Some people have strange thinking. richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2186 Registered: 12-2003 |
Julie, God is in charge, and He will take you where you need to be to grow in Him. My opinion is that when people start new Sabbath churches with more modern worship formats, there is often a component in the decision that involves not surrendering the day for the sake of the Lord. Of course, people can legitimately worship on any day they choose, as Richard alluded to above. When a church such as an Adventist church begins a new format Sabbath church, however, the concern really IS the day. Therein lies the problem. Jesus MUST be our all-in-all. We must be willing to surrender everything we hold dear for His sake. Only when we give up what we love and fear for Him do we find out experientially that He IS enough! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 457 Registered: 3-2005 |
Also it can be demonstrated by many historical examples, that any "grace based" Sabbath congregation does not last in the long run. We went to a seventh-day Baptist church while transitioning out of Adventism, but realized I could not stay in that situation. I felt I needed to make a clean break from any idea that Sabbath held specific significance. No offshoot of Adventism has ever survived in the past, and nor will it survive in the future. Christ is our Sabbath rest--Praise Him for His deliverance! Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 941 Registered: 7-2003 |
Richard, I love your humor. My son's father commented one time he "almost went to church with us" but remembered that no where in the Bible does it say it's okay to go to church on Sunday, so he decided against it. Over and over through the years he has told me that it is wrong to go to church on Sunday. When I started clearly calling it "worship" (which is what it is), he started the strangest linguistic dance I think I've seen. It's not "wrong" per se to worship God on Sunday, just wrong to go to church.... Of course, he has no Biblical support other than it's silence on going to church on Sunday. Even when pointed to Acts, where it says they gathered daily, he says that wasn't church, that was just fellowship.... Are your eyes spinning yet??? | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2005 |
I have been reading Hebrews, and 10:26 used to get to me when Doug Batchelor would quote it to say that if we keep deliberately sinning after we have received knowledge of truth there is no forgiveness. I always felt hopeless after hearing him say that, but now I am discovering that as I read down further in verse 29 I would be lost not by some sin I haven't overcome, but by not accepting His complete forgiveness of that sin through Christ's blood shed. Am I reading that correctly? Verse 26 has been nagging me since I have been going to church on Sunday, but now I am seeing it in a much different light. How dare someone use that verse to make people feel hopeless or unsure of their salvation! And what a powerful verse (39) that: We are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. And verse 38: But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him. I think I'm getting it. God is so awesome!!! Julie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2189 Registered: 12-2003 |
Julie, you certainly are "getting it"! Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant entirely. I'm completely with you--I feel deep frustration at people like Batchelor misusing this powerful book to try to frighten people into keeping the Sabbath. I'm realizing, though, that God is sovereign, and God and Doug Batchelor will ultimately have to do business together just as we do. Yesterday our pastor opened his sermon (which explicated Jesus' Sabbath miracle of healing the lame man at the pool) with a story. He said this week he received an email from someone who had been watching a TV preacher. She had called for more info, and the person who talked to her explained the Sabbath and told her why she needed to keep it. He went on to say to her that now that she knew about the Sabbath, her salvation depended upon her observing it. This person somehow got in touch with Gary from across the continent (don't know how--possibly through the Trinity link from this website?) and asked for help understanding this problem. He gave her an answer that apparently satisfied her--I don't know what all he said. I was reminded all over again how seriously Adventism misuses Scripture, and what a serious offense it is against people to use God's word to preach heresy. Praise God, Julie, that the Holy Spirit is teaching you! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 790 Registered: 10-2004 |
Amen, Julie! Yes, yes, yes!! You're getting it! Yes, the thing about "go[ing] on sinning willfully" is talking about sinning against the blood of Jesus and refusing to accept Him and His sacrifice for our sins. This is the worst sin there is--it's the only unpardonable sin. This is what Jesus called an "eternal sin." But once we are born again, we no longer ever have to worry about this, because we are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30)! And yes, verse 39 is the best part of this whole chapter. Lots of people like to use the earlier part of the passage to say that we can lose our salvation. But NO, not if you keep reading to the end of the chapter! It says, "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." (NASB.) That says right there that we cannot "shrink back to destruction" since we have been given real, genuine faith as a gift from God and have been born again by the Holy Spirit! GOD WILL preserve our souls!!! Hallelujah! There is nothing we have to do to "keep" our salvation and nothing we can do to lose our salvation! We ARE saved and we have eternal life! Yes, Doug Batchelor is a very evil man who is leading people straight to hell with his false gospel. Colleen and Stan had great points about the new "grace based" church. I would like to add another caution. In most cases, even if an SDA church is "grace based" they are usually still not preaching the true, pure gospel. There is usually some distortion of it, even if it might seem subtle. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 27, 2005) | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2005 |
Oh Julie! I agree! It is so wonderful to experience the Life-giving Gospel, rather than the 'hang-on-by-a-thread' gospel we've always been taught. Colleen: I too have been told that I am lost because I knew 'the truth', and have 'rejected' it. I am so grateful for the Holy Spirit speaking to me through His Word. He is real and so personal. What a joyful experience to be free!!! and praise God that that woman was not pulled into the lie of Sabbath legalism. Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2193 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Patria! And isn't it amazing what the Bible has actually become?? It used to be difficult and burdensome; now it is alive, and I look forward to spending time reading and studying. It's a living book when we allow the Author to teach us Himself! Colleen | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thank you all so much for your help. It is exciting when God leads us through His word! I love what Paul said in Galatians 5:2-4, and also in 4:8-10. Actually, let me just include the whole book of Galatians, because God has spoken to my heart through it and I am amazed!!! Julie | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2005 |
Julie: Amen! That's one of my favorites!! (I keep saying 'oh that's my favorite!', but I can't help it, it's ALL my favorite! Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen: YES! The Living Word of God. It is truly inter-active when we have a relationship with Him. Oh how wonderful it is! He is so amazing! Julie: Sorry I know I JUST posted, but I am so THRILLED that God is speaking to you and moreover that you're listening! That alone was a huge battle for me. I didn't always want to 'hear' what He was saying because it was so uncomfortable. Patria | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1865 Registered: 11-2002 |
Melissa (and others), I sometimes really push the buttons of my SDA loved ones when they get on their tangents about it being wrong to go to church on Sunday. I frequently point out to them that at the SDA boarding high school I attended we had mandatory Sunday church. At campmeeting they have just as many services on Sundays as they do on Saturdays, the same holds true at the summer camps and most of the other SDA functions that occur onver Sundays. So, the SDA's do not avoid going to church on Sunday. They just don't go to "Sunday-keeping" churches on Sundays. Also, in my area are numerous churches that hold a Saturday evening service. This service is the exact same service as is on Sunday morning. I have pointed out to SDA's that there are options in choosing a church to attend on Saturdays other than the SDA. They then will point out to me that attending a Sunday-keeping church on Saturday doesnot make the person a Sabbath-keeper. I have also been told that by these Sunday churches having services on Saturdays we can know that it is satan's deception. The reasoning is that satan has these wayword people worshipping on the right day but they are really in Babalyon because they really aren't in the truth (the truth being the SDA disatince message; the IJ, the health message, the three angles message, the Sunday laws, the state of the dead, etc.). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2217 Registered: 12-2003 |
You make a very good point, Susan. I've pondered the same phenomenon. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1661 Registered: 3-2004 |
I thought about it for about 15 seconds when I decided to go to Saturday evening services at my church. It is so peaceful to know our corporate worship of God can be at any time and any day. Thank you God for Jesus, you are awesome. Diana |
