| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1840 Registered: 11-2002 |
It seems to me that SDA's, at least the ones in my life, have a great fear of death. Of the unknown. I guess if I believed the IJ I also would have a great fear of death. Think about if, the SDA's will have to believe when they die their names have already been brought before God for the IJ or they will believe their names are yet to be brought before God in the IJ. Either way, there could be no positive emotional comfort if the IJ doctrine. I have been considering the SDA warped view of death as I have elderly loved ones who are facing and dealing with the emotional issues of their mortality. No matter what scriptures I show the SDA's that I love scriptures that to Christians will bring comfort and spiritual peace, to the SDA's I get the opposite response. My mom, age 84 tells me over and over the Bible referrs to death as the enemy. I don't know the text right off but I have read that text, too. But, then I read her the passage where Paul is lamenting weather he'd rather go and be with Jesus or should he prefer to be here on earth to proclaim the Good News. No comfort to her in that passage. I can read the 23rd Pslam and no comfort there. I can read the passage about our earthly tents being only temporary. Again, no comfort. I have been attending the Lutheran church now regurally for around six years. Before that I attended a Baptist church (7th Day Baptist) regurally for around seven years. Between those two denominations I have attended numerous funerals and memorials and I can say the anxiety of dealing with ones mortality is much more rational and calm in those churches than with SDA's. Please, pray for my mom because the older she is getting the more fanatical she is getting about her health. She even told me one day she thinks of food as medicine, she uses food to maintain health. She measures most everything and she gets all the Lorraine Day stuff and she gets numerous other way farout health magazines. Fortunatelly she does not have access to the internet or it could get way out of hand. For example she read that there is a certain anti-oxident in red grape juice and for optium health a person shuld drink 4 oz pruple grape juice per day. so she measures out 4 oz of purple grape juice per day and drinks it. It's way extreme. Any thoughts? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1586 Registered: 3-2004  |
Susan, you know by now that you cannot argue or discuss Bible truths with SDAs. So, PRAY AND PRAY AND PRAY AND PRAY some more for your Mom and other relatives. Quit trying to show them the truth. Let God convince and convict them. You have planted a seed. Let God water it and take care of it's growth. He is working in ways we cannot see. Let your Mom do her thing. Pray for her. I do have her on my prayer list. Just let her know you love her and do things for her that show that love. Things that you can live with without hurting you. I know she would like you to go to church with her. That is not the kind of thing I mean. Bring her her favorite flowers, candy or take her to favorite park or what ever is something she likes. Ask God to show you. He will. Take care my friend and please, get you computer fixed so I can send you some funny stuff. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 396 Registered: 4-2000  |
Susan, Your observations of Adventists generally having an extraordinary fear of death is so true. Indeed, the investigative judgment alibi/theory assails them with crippling doubts and fears. While they cling to the investigative judgment and other heresies, nothing is really comforting in Scripture to them when in the shadow of death. All they really have is their physical tent. Their so-called "inner canon" (their proof-text system)does not allow them to appreciate and rejoice about other passages in Scripture. To them, those other passages are just the "milk" that Sunday churches talk about. Like a SDA lay leader told me as a young boy, "All that those non-Adventist preachers talk about is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. What we need to do is keep the Sabbath and pay our tithe." While still an Adventist, my wife was convinced that the Pauline Epistles should not even be in the sacred canon of Scripture. All passages not agreeing with Ellen White, of course, had to be somehow endlessly explained away. For example, I had a discussion about Romans 10:4 with an Adventist recently. She tried to tell me that the word "end" does not really mean "end." This is similar to the intentional parallelism found in Jesus' statement recorded in Matthew 25:46. SDAs insist that heaven is eternal, but hell is not (based on the same adjective). Yes, we used to know everything. One would only have had to ask us for all the right answers. I am most grateful that those views are now history. It very liberating not having to know and/or understand everything. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 361 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan, I will say that there is a lot of benefit in drinking purple grape juice, as the antioxidant value has been established. The irony is that red wine is much more beneficial than grape juice--but that would not fit your mother's SDA mindset. Paul was indeed correct when he gave health advice to Timothy, about drinking a little wine for your stomach's sake, and for your many infirmities. Medical science has now validated the apostle Paul's advice. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1842 Registered: 11-2002 |
Diana, Thank-you for your kind words and your prayers. Dennis, In conjunction with your discussion with an Adventist what the word 'end' means I had a similiar conversation with my mom recently. I asked her to tell me what Jesus was referring to when He was hanging, dying on the cross when He said, "It is finished". The reply I got is that Jesus was referring to His earthly life. His life here on earth was now finished. No more, no less. I understand those words to be referring to the prophecy of the OT laws being finished upon the sacrafice of our Saviour. I don't have my notes or concordence handy but I think you will recognise the passage in prophecy that I am referring to. But, I want to know if my moms answer to my question is the standard SDA reply to that question? It just seems so limiting to Jesus. I just have never known a SDA who has peace in his/her soul about the idea of death. You will never hear an Adventist say about their departed loved ones, "He's with Jesus now". The best I can get from the SDA's that I know is, "Well, we'll find out at the resurrection". Makes me want to puke, I think it's so depressing. At the Seventh Day Baptist and at the Lutheran yeah, the folks are sad to not have the conpanionship of the ones they so dearly loved but they generally have a peace about death that is totally lacking within Adventism. It must be very hard emotionally to be SDA and be way up in years and know that the human body will wind down and that no matter how hard a person trys to keep healthy death will come. We have a lady where I attend who has shared with us in Bible study that every day she pleeds with God to release her from this life. She is lutheran by birth and lived in Germany during the Holocost. She remembers the great sadness there at that time very well. She also misses her deceased husband so much that it is just heart-breaking. This lady not only is unafriad of death she actually longs for God to release her from her lonliness for her husband and release her from her nightmares she still has from being a littlt girl in Germany during the rule of Hitler. What a contrast to the SDA's. I hear SDA's used the term "Blessed hope" alot. It is one of their favorite terms. Yet, I just don't see blessed hope in their beliefs or in how they present their beliefs to others. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 1587 Registered: 3-2004 |
Before I left the SDA church for good, I decided to "enjoy" life and do whatever I wanted (and I did), because in the end, I knew I would not be saved and that after I died, Jesus would come and destroy me and that would be it and I would no longer suffer. Jesus did not see it that way as He wanted me to see the truth. Now I do care, as I do not want to end up with Satan and his crew. I only wish I could say my Mom is in Heaven now. She was SDA when she died and as far as I know never apologized to anyone for hurting them. So, I will leave that up to Jesus and whatever He does I know will be just. I leave all that up to Him as He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 480 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dennis, I love hearing your historic SDA background stories. It's God's way of encouraging me to keep believing and praying for my parents and loved ones. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2075 Registered: 12-2003  |
We have a friend, former SDA, who recently retired from neurosurgery. He has a remarkable conversion story which included being diagnosed with terminal cancer and being given 2-3 years max to live. (That was about 8 years ago, and he has been cancer free for years.) In his process of discovering truth and Jesus, one of the things that always niggled at his mind was that Adventists do not die well. Almost without exception, he observed, they are fearful. He noticed that other Christians approached death with peace and even confidence. Knowing Jesus completely changes our perception of reality. Actually, knowing Jesus finally makes it possible for us to KNOW reality--even if we don't have all the answers! I am so thankful for Jesus and for the Bible and for the Spirit Who reveals truth to us! Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 455 Registered: 6-2004 |
I just read an article in our newspaper about a little boy (4 years old) who just died from his battle with leukemia. As sad as it was, his mother said his last words on his hospital bed were "Jesus, Jesus"...then he turned his eyes to his mother and said "bye-bye Mommy". His mother said that she knows he's with God. That was a comforting thought for me to know that a child knows what's beyond this present life without a theological debate. The SDA viewpoint on death is depressing enough, yet not knowing your assurance of salvation contridicts the Bible itself. No wonder they fear death. | ||
| Becky Registered user Username: Becky Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2005 |
I hope this adds something to the peace found when dying a Christian. My cousin, a devote Christian, had a stroke two years ago - age 40. They found out the stroke was caused from a blood clot - a result of an aggressive brain sarcoma. He had several operations last year, chemo, ratiation etc. Three weeks ago, the doctors took him off all treatments and medication except what would make him comfortable. He is home now with hospice by his side and physically going fast. The family finally had to let him know, barring a miracle, there was just nothing left that could be done. On hearing the news, he was visibly shaken. Ten minutes later, however, he got on his knees and praised God that this was happening to him and not someone else as he is saved and can handle it! He has concerns for the family he will soon, a few weeks probably at most, leave behind. He is COMPLETELY at peace though with his upcoming graduation into everlasting life. He said, "Becky, I'll meet you there!" I am leaving today is a few hours to go see him - for the last time on this earth. I'm so glad to be Christian and KNOW this life isn't it. I will be "trapped" with my parents (who are ever so slowly seeing their way out of SDA) for three full days. I pray for no religious fights but a religious awakening for them would be great. Love in Christ, Becky | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 581 Registered: 1-2003 |
That brought tears to my eyes. I have a dear baptist friend whose mother died of cancer a few years ago...and on her death bed her last words were..."Praise God, He has answered every prayer I have ever prayed!" She was not fearful but joyful and expectant and ready to go. I have never forgotten that and it has been an inspiration to me. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2005 |
Here's a great passage that pertains to fear that I received in an email today from a friend. I find it comforting. "God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:16b-18, NIV) For those in Christ there is nothing to fear. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 147 Registered: 1-2003  |
Heretic, That has always been a favorite text of mine. As we grow in our love relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ fear is driven out of our lives. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 363 Registered: 3-2005 |
Becky, pw, and pheeki, Thanks for sharing those inspiring stories. That four year old gives a beautiful theological statement with his dying words. No other theology lesson on the state of the dead needed! I deal with dying patients almost daily, invariably the ones who are truly at peace with the Lord, die in the same peaceful way. Psalm 116:15, "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints". Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 711 Registered: 10-2004  |
Susan, that's too bad that your mother can't find any comfort in Scripture. Yes the Bible talks about death as an enemy, but it also says that it has been abolished by Jesus Christ:
Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 904 Registered: 7-2003  |
I've been reading a book about the reliability of the NT canon and have been quite impressed with the standards they used to determine which letters, etc. were considered canon. I was particularly impressed with the stories of how the early churches had titled different sections 'gospels', Paul's letters, etc. I didn't know Paul's letters were accepted as canon before any of the other letters (james, jude, 2peter, 2&3johns). Also of interest is hearing some of the speculation about how some books were written...for example, Mark is thought by some to be notes collected from Peter as he travelled and preached to the early church. There are some that don't agree with that...so don't take it as being concrete, but one of the things the author pointed out last night is that the letters/books were valued by the church long before they were defined as canon. The OT without the NT is judiasm. And though it may be what those at the time of Christ "studied", the early Christians studied Christ and what he did/said too AND the letters from Paul and the apostles. Early Christians were very interested in the teachings of those who "knew" Jesus personally. Even secular sources such as Esubeis (or however it is spelled), commented about Christians reading the gospels and their sacred letters. Anyone dismissing the NT as somehow lesser scripture, misses out on a wealth of truth. Dennis, you always make me laugh...I think you've listened inon my conversations with B. I've been condemned for living on "milk"  . | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 2078 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks for the quote, Heretic. Becky, what a poignant story. I'm praying for you and your visit with him and with your parents. Colleen | ||
| Pw Registered user Username: Pw Post Number: 456 Registered: 6-2004 |
The SDA's teaching on death really took the wind out of my sails. I've never heard such a thing before (soul sleep) and have not totally shaken it off at times. Although I don't believe it to be true anymore, it's still haunts my mind once in awhile. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 1843 Registered: 11-2002 |
I can remember being a little girl and listening to the grown-ups discussing and wondering how come the writings of Paul are even included in the Bible. The adults in my life at that age finily decided Paul contradicts the REAL BIBLE (OT) too much and his writings should not be included as true for Christians. Something about the OT being written first so it had more credeibility. And, they then went forth in their lives disregarding Paul (except occassionally when they needed to use his writings to make another rule about something). | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 148 Registered: 1-2003 |
WOW, I never heard of anything like that. (That the writings of Paul were wrong because they were different than the OT) I can identify with some of the comments others grew up with because I also remember them. IE: grace is what is used to make up for what we can't do on our own. Rather than by Grace alone are we saved. Richard rtruitt@mac.com |
